That's just it. Most of the people who hate those concepts are people who either haven't read the EU, or stopped reading it once something like Palpatine's Resurrection or the Yuuzhan Vong were introduced. You can go onto the StarWarsEU subreddit right now, and find thousands of die-hard readers who kept up with the 90's EU and jumped ship because they thought the Vong was a step too far, having never even finished the series. And then you have the people who haven't even read the EU, who get the bulk of their EU knowledge from YouTube and Wookiepedia, who will renounce the Vong as "proof that the EU needed to be scrapped". That mentality accounts for a massive portion of the Star Wars fanbase, which is the chunk I was specifically referring to.
They haven't read further than what Wookiepedia or YouTube channels like Stupendous Wave or Star Wars Explained hasn't told them, and thus dismiss the Vong as a concept. I'm sure there's plenty of die-hard EU readers who got over the Vong eventually, accepted them, and were then burned again by the narrative choices in LOTF. But that doesn't even account for most of the Star Wars fanbase, because most of them don't even read that far.
I find the opposite to be true in most cases---a lot of die-hard EU purists tend to hate TCW, partially for the changes it made to both the Nightsisters and the Mandalorians, but mostly because of the amount of Clone Wars Multimedia content it bulldozed over, like Asajj/Bariss' characterizations or the placement of events like the Battle of Jabiim. You'll even have those same people refuse to acknowledge TCW as part of the EU continuity.
I'm not saying I'm one of those people--I'm able to reconcile parts of the Multimedia project and TCW together for my own personal consumption--but that's a very common assessment of TCW to be found in the EU continuity.
That's the point that I was saying: the Vong was a hard sell for some, but they eventually got over it, then when LOTF came around, they threw their hands up in the air and went "FUCK IT." Especially the Jacen, Jaina, and Mara Jade fans who felt the story screwed them over-which it kind of did. Jacen fans were horrified at his turn to the Dark Side, Jaina fans were aghast at her becoming the bitch of the Mandalorians and Boba Fett, and Mara Jade fans were outright pissed their character died in what many saw as a bad attempt at a morally grey subplot.
Actually, I've seen more than the opposite being the case with TCW. Many TCW fans who liked the changes from the old EU knew what the old EU once had and HATED IT. Aside from Grievous fans who hated how he was suddenly nerfed, most TCW fans had a working knowledge of the old EU, the stuff they found cool about it, and the stuff they'd rather forget. SF Debris, for instance, had a very positive take on TCW's Mandalore plot. Mostly because he hates how Karen Traviss handled that stuff. From episode 5 of his SWTOR Bounty Hunter review:
"To begin, I want to share that I found Karen Traviss' entire approach to Star Wars, to be distasteful. Glorifying a culture around killing people while describing the keepers of the peace with legitimate praeternatural powers as spoonbenders, is not my thing at all. I do not particularly like Mandalorian culture, and frankly, I find their made-up language primitive and uninspired."
Meanwhile, this is what he had to say about the Mandalorian plotline of TCW:
The Mandalore Plot: "On a personal note, I like this already. I despise the lazy cookie-cutter Space Warrior Race of which the Mandalorians are one of the prime examples. So this concept that the Mandalorians are divided on the topic is a welcome enhancement to them."
Duchess of Mandalore: “And I reiterate, I like the way they’ve gone with the Mandalorian culture here. It feels like real growth and has already lent itself to some interesting story possibilities here. Plus, it’s always nice to see the non-warriors in a warrior-dominated culture finally stand up and say ‘Hey! Enough is enough, assholes! We’re tired of making things for you to break! We’re taking over now!’”
This is a guy who not only has knowledge of the SW EU and has even made reviews of SW works on his site before, but also has a fine grasp on western science fiction in general. And yes, he's praising the TCW version of Mandalore while considering the Mandalorian culture built around the Karen Traviss books to be uninspired, primitive, and distasteful.
Here's another comment by Deviantart user Separatist-Supporter on the TCW vs. RepComm debacle about the Mandalorians:
"The Clone Wars Mandalore makes more sense than RepComm Mandalore, too. Whenever the Mandos get sufficient power, they go on interstellar pillage and genocide binges; or on the bankroll of whatever edition of Psychic Space Hitler happens to be around that century. And the Republic let them get away with it because . . . um, manliness? I guess. Then TCW came around and said the Republic turned Mandalore into a radioactive parking lot in retribution."
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So yeah, there's people who prefer the TCW versions to the old EU versions, because the latter wasn't so good in their eyes, and they did know all about the latter before liking TCW's version of it.
That, and many things in TCW had the EU's fingerprints all over it. The idea to bring Maul back was done by the EU-THRICE. First was in a non-canon comic where Luke fought a hologram of Darth Maul, the second was when Maul came back a half-cyborg and hunted old man Ben Kenobi down, again in a non-canon comic. The third was when a doppleganger of Maul was sent off to fight Vader and test his strength. Then TCW finally made a canonical version of Maul coming back, which many EU fans have been clamoring for, since they wanted it done.
So yeah, there's more than several disillusioned EU fans who like TCW's changes because the previous version made no sense to them, or the fact that TCW finally made an EU concept stick and be added into the canon.
My last response to this. Feel free to have the last word. This is more so for other people reading and not you to give LotF and FotJ a chance because I think they are solid sci-fi fiction books and really good Star Wars books.
1) Nothing in LotF is inconsistant with NJO or the overall EU or Star Wars canon in general. Everything you mention here has very little to do with consistancy. Your specific preference not happening doesn't make something bad.
2) I repeat what I said about preferences. I'm not sure how the comic series not having references to LotF or FoTJ could possibly be jarring when reading both series. I recently read the comic series for the first time and I didn't find the lack of references to LotF nor FotJ jarring it all. It also didn't reference Thrawn or Dark Empire or the Agents storyline in SWTOR(canon btw). Somehow I found a way to read and enjoy the comic book series without being jarred by the lack of references.
As a war historian I'm not sure why what essentially boils down to a skirmish on the galactic scale inspires such non belief. The first recorded written history has the king of the tine going to war every summer like clock work. The break up of Rome led to continuous wars in Europe. The Italian city states were constantly at war. The Napoleonic Wars, the Religous Wars, the 30 year war that ended in the Peace of Westphalia, all of the Indian Wars in the USA, The Civil War and then 6 years later the US goes right back to Indian Wars, WW1 then WW2 then 7 years later the US engages in the Korean War. I'm not sure there is any historic precedent for the concept of war fatigue in practice. And all those real world examples dont matter at all because 1) fictional universe, 2) 10 years after the Vong 3) Your next complaint about Daala addresses the very thing you're complaining about.
Considering theres an actual IMPERIAL EMPIRE in the comic series the idea no one in the galaxy wanted the Imperials back doesnt hold much water. In fact the complaint of war fatigue is brought up in FotJ as a reason for Daala's emergence and rise to power. What you are complaining about is addressed and explained extremely well in FotJ so this is a weird complaint.
And this part is laughable. People still shit on the Prequels for the changes they made to the SW formula. People still complain about midiclorians even though their addition functionally changes nothing about the Force at all. Hardcore SW lore fans complained about Yoda jumping around and kicking ass because "Yoda isnt the type of jedi that fights". The whole backlash over Anakin as a whiny bitch is based on the change it makes to the headcanon people invented themselves over Darth Vaders backstory. Almost every SW related criticism of the prequels boils down to people not liking the changes GL made to the franchise and how he wanted to tell the story. None of the SW complaints would exist at all if the series was made exactly as is but didn't have the Star Wars label attached to it.
Tales of the Jedi nor KOTOR changed anything. They added to what existed, they did not add anything new. KOTOR 2 did add something new and the same people who have issues with NJO's depiction of the Force had/have issues with the lionization Kreia has recieved due to the logic being the same. KOTOR 2 gets away with it where NJO doesnt because at the end of KOTOR 2 she ends up as a bad guy all along, not changing anything in SW in any significant way. And while you may like the Vong, Mississippi has commented on how there are large segments of the fandom that still dont like them and consider them too non SWish. People in this very thread have expressed the very same sentiment.
I have no idea who SFdebris is but I hope you can realize that if Mando fans did not like the changes Filoni Wars made initially and after time has passed and the changes ceased being new and became the norm they were accepted that necessarily means they do not like changes.
You are free to have your opinion as well as the last word. We can agree to disagree. I encourage everyone, and you, to read LotF and FotJ for themselves now after time has passed since their releases, the newness of it has faded and the travesty of the sequels are a thing. As a SW fan they are highly enjoyable book series and well written works of fiction.
Cheers.
1) Tell that to the Jacen fans, Jaina fans, and Mara Jade fans who felt that LOTF was an ice-pick to the dick. Most of these guys are EU fans, and they openly detest LOTF as the EU's tipping point to madness. Tell that to Timothy Zahn, who was about to write an EU story for Mara Jade before she got unceremoniously killed off.
2) That's you. Many others aren't so lucky. Especially when someone reads this stuff in order of the events instead of production, then they wonder why Darth Caedus gets very little mention at all when the Sith and the Empire have come back in force. That's like if SWTOR didn't mention Revan or the Jedi Civil War at all.
Er, no. In fact, the big SW wars are most decidedly post-modern wars. The first time we had a modern war, people were so tired of it that they banned wars for decades after WW1. WW2 happened because the Germans were so horribly mistreated by the Allies and the Japs weren't given the lands they were promised after WW1. After that, every war we've been in, people have become less and less enthusiastic for it. The Korean War still had a healthy amount of patriotism behind it, but it wasn't as much as WW2, and even though the US could have conquered the whole peninsula, they sued for peace and allowed the North and the South to be divided. The Vietnam War cracked the patriotic war spirit of America as protests and fraggings were happening even though militarily, the US was still winning the pound-for-pound battle. The Iraq War, a war the US fought against a dictator and against religious militias, is a war the US eventually won, and yet it was still seen again as a misadventure that caused plenty of death and unnecessary losses. And right now, even as China makes open moves of dictatorship and imperialism while suffering one earthly calamity after another, the US was hesitant to fight, even before the bat-virus came out.
Summer wars don't cause war fatigue. For 1000 years after the last Sith War, the Jedi Order and the Republic's militias weren't fatigued by war since most wars they fought were like the Blockade of Naboo in EPI: local, quick, and small-scale. Meanwhile, the galaxy after the Vong War has suffered three, massive galactic wars. First was the Clone Wars, which tore the Republic in half and caused so much grief and suffering, people were willing to put the Republic out of its misery and replace it with an efficient Empire to make sure it never happens again. Then we have the Galactic Civil War, which started as small-scale conflicts at the ass end of space until after Endor, where the Imperials shat the bed and started killing each other like crazy, tearing apart the galaxy and allowing for the New Republic to come into power. Then we had the Yuuzhan Vong War, where most of the galaxy was besieged by a foreign, barbarian horde using exotic bio-technology, a horde that slaughtered HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS. And may I remind you that after the last war with the New Sith Empire, the Galactic Republic grew so tired of war that they DISBANDED THE REPUBLIC ARMY AND NAVY?
That is war fatigue, pal. And after three MASSIVE galactic wars, do you think people, especially old Alliance War vets who had to fight together against the likes of the Empire and the Vong, would be up for another game of "let's shoot each other for petty political squabbles"? No. More likely, the old Alliance war dogs would react to the Corellians getting uppity and butting heads with Cal Omas by getting together, politely asking Cal Omas to resign, and putting Garm Bel Iblis in charge. Bel Iblis fought against the Empire and the Vong, and he A) doesn't want pointless rebellions against Coruscant, and B) IS a Corellian who openly disparaged Palpatine and stood by the Jedi. There would be no war, since Coruscant and the Alliance would be ruled by a Corellian who knows the price of freedom.
I'm shitting on LOTF, not Fate of the Jedi. FOTJ is fine, but it basically follows a rather terrible story that most EU fans would rather forget.
And of course, them putting Natasi "Space Nazi Queen" Daala in charge after people were so paranoid that Jacen would bring back the Empire, is just so horribly unrealistic it bends belief. Again, Garm was there. The man didn't partake of any pointless rebellions against Coruscant, he's a distinguished senator who fought against the tyranny of Emperor Palpatine and openly invoked the names of the Jedi Masters in his fiery speeches, and he's a Corellian. The perfect man to make both Coruscanti and Corellians happy. Of course, Daala gets overthrown at the end, but her getting the GA leadership seat when even most Imperials would be iffy about it is just annoying to any fan of the old EU who read many of the books and knew who these characters are.
Most of those people who shit on the Prequels didn't even read the EU to begin with. Whereas many of the people shitting on LOTF read and knew the EU and that is why they despised such things. Midichlorians were already a concept in EPVI where blood determined Force Sensitivity, hence why only Leia could succeed Luke as a Jedi in the story in the odd case he died: because among the OT cast, only she can wield the Force like him, aside from the Jedi and the Sith. And of course, most of those concepts that the OT purists worship were concepts Lucas did away with. One can't use them as official things when Lucas never even made them official parts of the SW universe. He never put anything in the SW universe to indicate that Yoda can't fight or that the Force is available for all, those are just concepts he had in the past that he discarded. And he is within his rights to discard ideas he doesn't like in his work.
Tales of the Jedi and KOTOR/SWTOR brought about changes that showed us how the Old Republic was like. People had such fluffy-cloud expectations of how the Jedi and the Republic were like in the past, but Tales of the Jedi and KOTOR showed us that the Jedi and the Republic was as dysfunctional as any other society. It goes to show that Kenobi's lofty description of the Jedi being guardians of peace and justice wasn't as clear-cut as he sells it, that the Jedi and the Republic had more than their fair share of oopsies (like the massacre of the Sith after the Great Hyperspace War, or the Jedi Council not helping during the Mandalorian Wars) that showed a more complex picture of things. And yes, KOTOR 2 got away with what they did to Kreia, and the Jedi Masters in that game, because they didn't take existing characters like Mara, Jacen, or Jaina and make them uncharacteristically stupid or drop a bridge on them.
Then you should look up SFDebris. He knows science fiction better than most folks do. That, and the new Mandalorians have their fans, some of whom were people who didn't like Karen Traviss' take on them. I know I didn't. I loved the KOTOR Mandalorians and how they were ruthless and pragmatic, they worshiped strength and respected those who bested them in battle. They were a breath of fresh air compared to other warlike cultures like the Imperium of Man who had rules and rituals that prevented them from being as effective as they can be. Then Traviss made them into whiners who whine about Jedi and Force-users in general while trying to proclaim themselves more just and honorable than the Jedi-something which the KOTOR Mandalorians would have laughed in their faces for, since the old Mandalorians don't care about ethics or morals, they saw victory in battle as their justification. Mandalorian-fans who hated Karen Traviss' take on them and loved the KOTOR versions of them loved what TCW did with the Death Watch, since the Death Watch were the KOTOR Mandalorians reborn: a warrior people not obsessed with the moral high ground over the Jedi, but who see victory as their justification and strength in battle as the highest of virtues.
If you want, I can post my reasons here why LOTF, especially Revelations, doesn't take into account 90% of Star Wars.
