Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

There's already a few Jedi who are more than a bit nutty-the thing is, they're still loyal to the Order, even though they see non-Force users as beneath them. Jorus C'baoth would do. He's still loyal to the Order, even though he was already flirting with darkness before he left for the Outbound Flight project. Him taking Sith teachings won't really change him since he's already full of himself.

That, and they wouldn't want to take control of the Jedi Order even if they go dark. Why would they? The Jedi are bound by tradition to stick to the Light and serve people, whereas a Dark Lord can control the populace through dark powers or manipulation, and the less Sith there are to compete with him, the better. So long as the two sides don't conflict, they can stay separate. Hell, I'd even give this Jedi plant among the Sith a permanent seat on the Council once they've overthrown the Sith Master and taken his teachings. Kind of like a specialist to deal with Dark-Siders on retainer. Plus, it doesn't have to be a fully Dark-Side Sith, since SWTOR showed us that Light-Side Sith are possible. Then have the Jedi Sith Lord train those who are pure of heart in Sith techniques, so we can preserve the Sith's knowledge while only handing it to those who are strong enough in the Light, that the Dark Side won't consume them-with the power of the Light, they'll be able to command it. Kind of like how the Ring of Solomon in som mythological writings was able to control demons because it was gifted to Solomon by an angel.
Your interpretation of how the Force works is widely incongruent with the way it works in universe.

Ironically enough Jacen Solo is an example of what happens when you try to dabble in the dark side. The whole meta point being made is that the darkside corrupts and corrupts completely. You don't get to be half pregnant.
 
I just remember that most of the time, should a Jedi do more than slightly dabble in the dark side (if just because everyone gets tempted at some point and they must know their faults before they master themselves), they're fucked and they're gonna have a hell of a time getting out of it. Oh sure, they're still technically Jedi. Just they're Dark Jedi and have fallen, causing pain and strife in the process.

Let's just state I disagree with the idea of having a puppet Sith, because of the intrinsic requirement to refuse temptation for all your life.

It might help because I've seen that character before: his name was Count Dooku. And that guy from one of the Kyle Katarn games too.
 
Your interpretation of how the Force works is widely incongruent with the way it works in universe.

Ironically enough Jacen Solo is an example of what happens when you try to dabble in the dark side. The whole meta point being made is that the darkside corrupts and corrupts completely. You don't get to be half pregnant.

Not really. SWTOR showed us that Light-Side Sith are possible. There were even some Sith like Keleth Ur who used Sith magic and Sith powers, yet still had the Light Side of the Force in him to the point where the Sith Emperor executed him for heresy.

It's as Kyle Katarn says: both light and dark powers are available to Jedi, but it's not the powers themselves that are evil-it's what you use them for. The Jedi Covenant, for example, avoided Dark Side powers for fear of contamination, yet they still killed their Padawans, proving their evil intentions. Meanwhile, Darth Imperius (Inquisitor character in SWTOR who went light side) uses Sith lightning and other dark spells all the time, yet remains pure and unblemished in spiritual character. He/she can even tell a Jedi "I have more light than you, and I love."

And of course, Luke was choking people left and right when he came into Jabba's palace in ROTJ, and yet nobody, not even Yoda or Ben Kenobi, reprimanded him for it. Nor did anyone reprimand Windu for using the Force to attack and crush Grievous' chest in the Battle of Coruscant. So we do have examples of Jedi who remained in the Light, who still used Dark Side powers to get to their goal.

Also, there was Galen Marek/Starkiller. The man was drenched in Dark Side teachings and used primarily Dark Side powers, but he still died as a Jedi. And he was using the Dark Side in almost every fight he was in. And the game he featured in was Force Unleashed, a game considered canon by Lucas. So while Lucas wouldn't give two shits about Jacen Solo, he officially supported and recognized as canon a game where the protagonist uses the Dark Side all the time and yet dies as a full Jedi by the end without having to stop using said Dark Powers.

I just remember that most of the time, should a Jedi do more than slightly dabble in the dark side (if just because everyone gets tempted at some point and they must know their faults before they master themselves), they're fucked and they're gonna have a hell of a time getting out of it. Oh sure, they're still technically Jedi. Just they're Dark Jedi and have fallen, causing pain and strife in the process.

Let's just state I disagree with the idea of having a puppet Sith, because of the intrinsic requirement to refuse temptation for all your life.

It might help because I've seen that character before: his name was Count Dooku. And that guy from one of the Kyle Katarn games too.

Count Dooku left the Light Side before AOTC. At most some can construe that he is grey, but he has fallen to the Dark Side by the time Yoda met him in Geonosis. There's a difference between having the Dark Side in you, but you still command it, and it commanding you or consuming you. The former is akin to Darth Imperius, Galen Marek, Mace Windu, and Kyle Katarn, while the latter is akin to Darth Sidious or Darth Nihilus.
 
Last edited:
  • Feels
Reactions: GeneralFriendliness
Not really. SWTOR showed us that Light-Side Sith are possible. There were even some Sith like Keleth Ur who used Sith magic and Sith powers, yet still had the Light Side of the Force in him to the point where the Sith Emperor executed him for heresy.

It's as Kyle Katarn says: both light and dark powers are available to Jedi, but it's not the powers themselves that are evil-it's what you use them for. The Jedi Covenant, for example, avoided Dark Side powers for fear of contamination, yet they still killed their Padawans, proving their evil intentions. Meanwhile, Darth Imperius (Inquisitor character in SWTOR who went light side) uses Sith lightning and other dark spells all the time, yet remains pure and unblemished in spiritual character. He/she can even tell a Jedi "I have more light than you, and I love." And of course, Luke was choking people left and right when he came into Jabba's palace in ROTJ, and yet nobody, not even Yoda or Ben Kenobi, reprimanded him for it.
SWTOR and all SW video game mechanics are questionable due to them being a game a player is playing. You *can* have Revan be a murdering bastard throughout all of KOTOR, it doesnt change Revan's redemption and return to the light side of the force being canon. SWTOR is in a very weird canon place due to it being a video game, an MMO and due to LF purchase by Disney.

Video games stories and plot are considered canon. Not mechanics. Using video games as a source for canon for anything other than strictly the plot is a no go. The developer is focusing on making the game fun which usually means they add shit in the game that doesn't make sense when compared to other sources of canon. Video games were C canon in the pre-Disney SW universe for this very reason.

I disagree with Kyle Katarn. That logic is how Jacen fell in the first place and Kyle later on doesn't usethe dark side of the force after joining Luke's order. This whole concept was addressed in FotJ and was part of why Luke revisited all of the places Jacen had visited. The conclusion and final answer concerning this question was darkside powers lead to opening yourself up to the darkside which leads to you succumbing to it. The straight and narrow path of the light side is the path jedi have to walk.

What you're saying ignores the meta point being made in SW. The whole point of there being a light and dark side of the force.
 
Last edited:
Count Dooku left the Light Side before AOTC. At most some can construe that he is grey, but he has fallen to the Dark Side by the time Yoda met him in Geonosis. There's a difference between having the Dark Side in you, but you still command it, and it commanding you or consuming you. The former is akin to Darth Imperius, Galen Marek, Mace Windu, and Kyle Katarn, while the latter is akin to Darth Sidious or Darth Nihilus.
This reeks of greysiding to me, which was always a lesser pet peeve of mine in fanfictions and EU work. I always found it as an excuse to be honest, a cheap way to keep the best of both elements (because villain factions are usually seen as more interesting) while trying to minimize the negatives of said villain faction.

Sure, there's throwaway lines like "only sith deal in absolutes", but experience shows that Dark Side use is like smoking crack or black tar heroin.
 
SWTOR and all SW video game mechanics are questionable due to them being a game a player is playing. You *can* have Revan be a murdering bastard throughout all of KOTOR, it doesnt change Revan's redemption and return to the light side of the force being canon. SWTOR is in a very weird canon place due to it being a video game, an MMO and due to LF purchase by Disney.

I disagree with Kyle Katarn. That logic is how Jacen fell in the first place and Kyle later on doesn't usethe dark side of the force after joining Luke's order. This whole concept was addressed in FotJ and was part of why Luke revisited all of the places Jacen had visited. The conclusion and final answer concerning this question was darkside powers lead to opening yourself up to the darkside which leads to you succumbing to it. The straight and narrow path of the light side is the path jedi have to walk.

What you're saying ignores the meta point being made in SW. The whole point of there being a light and dark side of the force.

SWTOR still shows you that a Sith can be Light-Sided. And Force Unleashed, a game Lucas made into his canonical bridge between the two trilogies of SW movies he made, had a Sith who wasn't exactly evil as the main character. At most, he was just doing his job, and when following orders didn't work, he became a Jedi for realsies. He still used Sith powers all the damn time.

Jacen Solo's story in LOTF is rejected by many Jacen fans and many EU fans. And that very same logic is rejected by The Force Unleashed, which shows that you can be the most Dark-Side using motherfucker, almost akin to a second Palpatine, and yet you can still be good, to the point where you encourage Jedi like Rahm Kota and the Rebel Alliance to keep fighting. Quite literally, Lucas' personal canon includes Force Unleashed, which means that canonically, a Light-Side was there as a founding member of the Rebel Alliance. If he wasn't killed by Sidious, the fucker would be leading Alliance operations all over the place.

There's enough old canon stuff that shows that using Dark Side powers ain't exactly evil. Luke used the Force to choke Gamorreans. Windu used the Force to crush Grievous' chest. Starkiller spammed lightning almost as much as the Emperor. And yet they're all Light-Side. There's no escaping that. The only tale that contradicts such notions is an EU storyline that most EU fans rejected.

On the one hand, you have LOTF saying that using the Dark Side without getting corrupted is impossible. On the other, you have the 2003 Clone Wars, Episode VI Return of the Jedi, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, and the Force Unleashed. Two of those works from the latter list are a part of Lucas' personal SW canon. In both numbers and canonicity, LOTF is outnumbered. This is why people don't like LOTF: not only do famous characters die pointless deaths in a war nobody will remember, but its lessons are contradicted by other, better EU works, and sometimes, even by the films and other works Lucas saw as canon.

Sure, Tales of the Jedi showed us how Exar Kun failed to keep himself under control when using the Dark Side, but that was because he was already an arrogant little shit, basically a racist jackass with impeccable lightsaber skills. He didn't have the same measure of self-restraint that Luke, Mace, Kyle, and Galen had, which was why the Dark Side wound up consuming him. He was already a racist, arrogant shit in the first place, and the Dark Side merely unmasked what was inside him all along.

This reeks of greysiding to me, which was always a lesser pet peeve of mine in fanfictions and EU work. I always found it as an excuse to be honest, a cheap way to keep the best of both elements (because villain factions are usually seen as more interesting) while trying to minimize the negatives of said villain faction.

Sure, there's throwaway lines like "only sith deal in absolutes", but experience shows that Dark Side use is like smoking crack or black tar heroin.

As I said, Dooku was already evil when Yoda met him on Geonosis. It's not the same as Starkiller, Kyle Katarn, or Mace Windu. Or even Luke in Jabba's Palace. Secondary materials indicated that Dooku was plotting to either turn all the Jedi evil or kill them all along with Sidious, while Starkiller turned away from serving the Sith and wanted to save the Rebels, Kyle Katarn wanted to protect the New Republic and his friend Jan, Mace Windu wanted to kill a guy who was killing Jedi, and Luke was choking some dudes who got in his way in Jabba's palace, in a manner reminiscent of his father. None of those guys were as evil as Dooku was in AOTC and the Clone Wars. They were all Lightsiders, and still used Dark Side powers without getting corrupted.

And at the very least, Starkiller's tale is canon. That's something you can't shake off-a Light Side Sith helped found the Rebel Alliance. He's not grey, he's not dark, by the end he was one of the good guys, and yet the dude spammed Sith lightning like crazy.
 
Last edited:
  • Feels
Reactions: GeneralFriendliness
SWTOR still shows you that a Sith can be Light-Sided. And Force Unleashed, a game Lucas made into his canonical bridge between the two trilogies of SW movies he made, had a Sith who wasn't exactly evil as the main character. At most, he was just doing his job, and when following orders didn't work, he became a Jedi for realsies. He still used Sith powers all the damn time.

Jacen Solo's story in LOTF is rejected by many Jacen fans and many EU fans. And that very same logic is rejected by The Force Unleashed, which shows that you can be the most Dark-Side using motherfucker, almost akin to a second Palpatine, and yet you can still be good, to the point where you encourage Jedi like Rahm Kota and the Rebel Alliance to keep fighting. Quite literally, Lucas' personal canon includes Force Unleashed, which means that canonically, a Light-Side was there as a founding member of the Rebel Alliance. If he wasn't killed by Sidious, the fucker would be leading Alliance operations all over the place.

There's enough old canon stuff that shows that using Dark Side powers ain't exactly evil. Luke used the Force to choke Gamorreans. Windu used the Force to crush Grievous' chest. Starkiller spammed lightning almost as much as the Emperor. And yet they're all Light-Side. There's no escaping that. The only tale that contradicts such notions is an EU storyline that most EU fans rejected.

On the one hand, you have LOTF saying that using the Dark Side without getting corrupted is impossible. On the other, you have the 2003 Clone Wars, Episode VI Return of the Jedi, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, and the Force Unleashed. Two of those works from the latter list are a part of Lucas' personal SW canon. In both numbers and canonicity, LOTF is outnumbered.
We agree to disagree. Force choking is not inherently darksided neither is Windu using the force to crush greivous' chest. Windu is a terrible example seeing as his whole thing that makes him a badass is him constantly teetering on the edge of falling to the darkside with Vaapad and in fact I'm pretty sure the novelization of Episode 3 states he did fall into the darkside which is why he was able to beat Palps.


I've already said video game mechanics (Statkiller and his clone shooting as much lightning as the emperor) arent considered canon necessarily and that's GL rule set in it being C canon. Which is below movies and books.

I didn't mention LotF, I mentioned FotJ. Which should have the final word on it considering it's the last and final word on the topic that is in canon we are ever going to get. More than that the canon laws state Movies > Books > Comics > Videogames. When canon conflicts occur between two mediums the superseding one prevails. Every mention of a jedi continuing to use the darkside of the force you have brought up(what Luke does in RotJ isn't) was from a video game.

More to the point if you can't see how meta and story breaking the idea you are advocating for is to the universe of SW theres no point in us even talking about the series. It's a fundamental aspect to the fabric of the universe. It actually cancels quite a bit of meaning the universe has.
 
We agree to disagree. Force choking is not inherently darksided neither is Windu using the force to crush greivous' chest. Windu is a terrible example seeing as his whole thing that makes him a badass is him constantly teetering on the edge of falling to the darkside with Vaapad and in fact I'm pretty sure the novelization of Episode 3 states he did fall into the darkside which is why he was able to beat Palps.


I've already said video game mechanics (Statkiller and his clone shooting as much lightning as the emperor) arent considered canon necessarily and that's GL rule set in it being C canon. Which is below movies and books.

I didn't mention LotF, I mentioned FotJ. Which should have the final word on it considering it's the last and final word on the topic that is in canon we are ever going to get. More than that the canon laws state Movies > Books > Comics > Videogames. When canon conflicts occur between two mediums the superseding one prevails. Every mention of a jedi continuing to use the darkside of the force you have brought up(what Luke does in RotJ isn't) was from a video game.

More to the point if you can't see how meta and story breaking the idea you are advocating for is to the universe of SW theres no point in us even talking about the series. It's a fundamental aspect to the fabric of the universe. It actually cancels quite a bit of meaning the universe has.

Force Choking is a Dark Side power. All attempts to use the Force to attack are Dark Side powers. Force Choking was even the first Sith power introduced in the movies. And no, Windu reacted to Palpatine the way any Jedi would react-even Yoda approached him with the intent to kill, nothing less. Palpatine was an abomination in the eyes of all Light-Siders, and as such, once his true nature was revealed, any Jedi who approached him approached with the intention to kill, aside from Luke, of course, who thought they were all gonna die anyways once the Death Star blows up, so all he did was stand there and stall while trying to get his old man back on the Light Side.

Er, no. Multiple depictions of Starkiller has him spamming lightning, be it in comic form, or video game form. He was openly a Sith apprentice using Sith powers, and yet he wasn't corrupted by the Dark Side in the least. When he was Vader's errand boy, he was just doing his job, he wasn't evil or malicious. He was just a loyal, honorable attack dog killing people under the orders of his lord. When he stopped that, he still used Sith powers to accomplish his goal, like when he defeated a Dark-Side Maris Brood in the TFU comic with Force Lightning.

Er, no. FOTJ and LOTF are still C-canon works, they are not more canon that Jedi Outcast or Jedi Academy which has the characters openly state that powers in themselves aren't good or evil, but how you use them is. And no, the canon law is Movies > comics/novels/games. The comics, novels, and games are all C-canon, and if you discount games, I can discount novels, leaving us with ROTJ where Luke Force-choked some pig guards and Ben Kenobi didn't even reprimand him for using his father's signature Sith power.

Being from a video game doesn't make it less canon, because even outside the game mechanics, we see in the cutscenes and the story that Starkiller still uses Dark Side powers. Heck, the Light-Side Starkiller clone in Force Unleashed II used Force Lightning to defeat Darth Vader-and that's canon in both the game AND the comic, where Vader gets defeated explicitly BY Force Lightning coming from the Starkiller clone that the Rebels used to penetrate Kamino's defenses.

That, and the Force Unleashed storyline would actually count as being more canon among other C-canon works, because Lucas was involved in it. And it basically had the story of a Sith apprentice using Dark Side powers all the time founding the Rebel Alliance. You want a canonical Light-Side Sith? There you go. It's more canon than FOTJ or LOTF, which had no input from Lucas at all.

The whole story arc that started in LOTF and ended in FOTJ in itself breaks SW canon more than TFU or any other game where Dark Side powers are available for Light-Side Jedi. Alliance war dogs wouldn't declare war on each other based on petty political differences, especially after three massive, galactic wars, and especially since they could just put Garm Bel Iblis in as GA leader to appease both Corellia and Coruscant. And they sure as fuck won't tolerate Tarkin's former squeeze becoming the new GA head of state. At least I can buy a Jedi chucking lightning because I've seen Light-Side Luke use his daddy's signature Dark Side power on some of Jabba's goons, so there is a precedent IN THE FILMS for a Jedi using Sith powers without going nuts. Meaning that such a thing is possible even in G-canon.

That, and the Rebel Alliance as a whole had a Light-Side Sith as a founding member, a guy who chucked lightning and used Dark Side powers like there's no tomorrow, and yet both as a Sith and as a Jedi, the man was never corrupted by the Dark Side the way the Emperor and Vader were. And yes, that tale, known to us as the Force Unleashed, is canon in Lucas' eyes, as it was his bridge between the two trilogies of SW movies that he made. Dark Side powers being used by Luke in ROTJ, and a Light-Side Sith Apprentice founding the Rebel Alliance in the first place. That's as conclusive as we can get about Dark Side powers not corrupting good men, as Luke and Galen remained pure during most of their respective storylines.
 
Last edited:
Actually their lack of agency could very much be the point. The clones are meat machines, programmed with loyalty to the Republic and advanced military training. The chip functions as a restraining bolt to ensure the clones follow orders and as somewhat of a mindwipe to make the clones instantly turn on their generals without hesitation.

After Order 66, the identities of the imperial clones faded away. There was no need to call something like Commander Cody by its nickname. That was just a moniker the Jedi used to connect with their soldiers.

The ones that removed the chip kept their identities because they did the one thing machines can’t do; perform an action outside of their programming.
But all this does is nullify pre-existing stories and the darker implications that made ROTS deep for the sake of salvaging Filoni's own OCs because he wanted them to be good boys who dindunuffin. The man even wanted to go against the films and have Plo Koon survive Order 66 via parachute or jetpack. It just takes away character and the dark moral implications of these characters by reducing it all down to "its just a chip".

For reference, here's the 501st journal as narrated by Temuera Morrison.

Even in ROTS commentary George mentions that it was a last resort order that was taught, not programmed. Hence why you had a lone clone rebellion on Murkhana. The chip just removes any moral dilemma and internal narrative for the clones and it also ends up making Palpatine look like an idiot by implanting a chip that enforces the 150 General Orders, one of which includes his own assassination, but knowing Filoni, the other 149 orders didn't exist to him. Another issue is that the chip as depicted in the show's introduction of them makes clones act like half brain-dead zombies, a further contrast to what we clearly saw on film and other media where they were fully aware of what they were doing with max efficiency.
Clone Wars 2003 demonstrated the action side of the Clone Wars while Clone Wars 2008 went in-depth on its battles and the political side of the war. I'd say that my favorite parts of the 3D Clone Wars were the scenes with the Separatist Council and the political machinations of Palpatine on Courscant in regards to the banks and courts. Both provide crucial context to how Anakin falls and how the Republic becomes the Empire. Which is what the entire prequel trilogy was about in the first place.
Palpatine was indeed the highlight of 2008 and the depiction of his political persona was very in-line with everything we knew about him, and his takeover of the banks (despite the Muun arc's own flaws) was a very powerful scene. As for Anakin's fall though, it was practically a mute point in the show that hardly ever came up except for one instance of him strangling Poggle and the Son corrupting him for a bit, with the only best instance being the few times he talks to Palpatine. Otherwise, Anakin's portrayal is completely distinct from what we saw in the movies, now being some generic swashbuckler who talks like a smooth player, in contrast to Genndy Wars where Anakin's corruption is far more obvious and handled with more impact that reflects what we see in the films and he is actually like the character we see in the films while not being as robotic. Overall Anakin's "future vision" was more brilliantly handled in the final chapter of Genndy Wars than the Mortis Arc, where on Mortis, Anakin basically just gets hit with the evil shovel with no subtlety and its all easily brushed away with the wave of a hand with only a lingering corruption implied to be a third party's fault rather than his own, eliminating much of his free will.
And then there's Dooku's portrayal... but that's a whole other can of worms I've been over too many times in this thread.
 
Last edited:
Force Choking is a Dark Side power. All attempts to use the Force to attack are Dark Side powers. Force Choking was even the first Sith power introduced in the movies. And no, Windu reacted to Palpatine the way any Jedi would react-even Yoda approached him with the intent to kill, nothing less. Palpatine was an abomination in the eyes of all Light-Siders, and as such, once his true nature was revealed, any Jedi who approached him approached with the intention to kill, aside from Luke, of course, who thought they were all gonna die anyways once the Death Star blows up, so all he did was stand there and stall while trying to get his old man back on the Light Side.

Er, no. Multiple depictions of Starkiller has him spamming lightning, be it in comic form, or video game form. He was openly a Sith apprentice using Sith powers, and yet he wasn't corrupted by the Dark Side in the least. When he was Vader's errand boy, he was just doing his job, he wasn't evil or malicious. He was just a loyal, honorable attack dog killing people under the orders of his lord. When he stopped that, he still used Sith powers to accomplish his goal, like when he defeated a Dark-Side Maris Brood in the TFU comic with Force Lightning.

Er, no. FOTJ and LOTF are still C-canon works, they are not more canon that Jedi Outcast or Jedi Academy which has the characters openly state that powers in themselves aren't good or evil, but how you use them is. And no, the canon law is Movies > comics/novels/games. The comics, novels, and games are all C-canon, and if you discount games, I can discount novels, leaving us with ROTJ where Luke Force-choked some pig guards and Ben Kenobi didn't even reprimand him for using his father's signature Sith power.

Being from a video game doesn't make it less canon, because even outside the game mechanics, we see in the cutscenes and the story that Starkiller still uses Dark Side powers. Heck, the Light-Side Starkiller clone in Force Unleashed II used Force Lightning to defeat Darth Vader-and that's canon in both the game AND the comic, where Vader gets defeated explicitly BY Force Lightning coming from the Starkiller clone that the Rebels used to penetrate Kamino's defenses.

That, and the Force Unleashed storyline would actually count as being more canon among other C-canon works, because Lucas was involved in it. And it basically had the story of a Sith apprentice using Dark Side powers all the time founding the Rebel Alliance. You want a canonical Light-Side Sith? There you go. It's more canon than FOTJ or LOTF, which had no input from Lucas at all.

The whole story arc that started in LOTF and ended in FOTJ in itself breaks SW canon more than TFU or any other game where Dark Side powers are available for Light-Side Jedi. Alliance war dogs wouldn't declare war on each other based on petty political differences, especially after three massive, galactic wars, and especially since they could just put Garm Bel Iblis in as GA leader to appease both Corellia and Coruscant. And they sure as fuck won't tolerate Tarkin's former squeeze becoming the new GA head of state. At least I can buy a Jedi chucking lightning because I've seen Light-Side Luke use his daddy's signature Dark Side power on some of Jabba's goons, so there is a precedent IN THE FILMS for a Jedi using Sith powers without going nuts. Meaning that such a thing is possible even in G-canon.

That, and the Rebel Alliance as a whole had a Light-Side Sith as a founding member, a guy who chucked lightning and used Dark Side powers like there's no tomorrow, and yet both as a Sith and as a Jedi, the man was never corrupted by the Dark Side the way the Emperor and Vader were. And yes, that tale, known to us as the Force Unleashed, is canon in Lucas' eyes, as it was his bridge between the two trilogies of SW movies that he made. Dark Side powers being used by Luke in ROTJ, and a Light-Side Sith Apprentice founding the Rebel Alliance in the first place. That's as conclusive as we can get about Dark Side powers not corrupting good men, as Luke and Galen remained pure during most of their respective storylines.
I think I finally get the logic.

The idea is that you remain a Jedi so long as you keep to the principles of being one with the force and keeping your feelings in check, all to service the needs of others. You need to understand what your feelings are and know how to not let them affect your judgement or stew in them. In this case, dabbling in the Dark Side forces you to face those worse parts of yourself you usually try to ignore since you have to accept it's a part of you. You need to know how to handle fears, frustrations, and hatred, so you can manage yourself when they come, since those powers rely on you wanting those things to happen and often feed on those emotions.

The Sith on the other hand are all about letting loose with your feelings. Be it releasing your fury in catharsis, fleeing from or facing a great source of fear, or in nicer cases, indulging in what you love. I remember that healing powers are strangely enough a dark side power too in that regard. So if you let loose and tend to focus on the good sides to life, you can still technically be a decent Sith. Hell, a Sith that specializes in wanting to heal others due to their grief at being unable to help someone back in their younger years would be viable with this logic.

I still however thinks this reeks of wanting to like the villains but lacking the balls to like them for what they are though, ie greyside horseshit. Mainly because it tries to ignore that oh no, the Dark Side tends to be like a drug due to said catharsis since it works on emotion and desire.

Reminds me way too much of bad Harry Potter fanfiction where they try to equate Dark Arts as not being evil. Which in that series case always ignored how no, you need intent for them to work. So no, you need to indulge in being a shit person to make them work, be it wanting to straight up kill a bitch for the Killing Curse, or wanting a person to feel like they're getting skinned and enjoying their screams for the Torture Curse.
 
I think I finally get the logic.

The idea is that you remain a Jedi so long as you keep to the principles of being one with the force and keeping your feelings in check, all to service the needs of others. You need to understand what your feelings are and know how to not let them affect your judgement or stew in them. In this case, dabbling in the Dark Side forces you to face those worse parts of yourself you usually try to ignore since you have to accept it's a part of you. You need to know how to handle fears, frustrations, and hatred, so you can manage yourself when they come, since those powers rely on you wanting those things to happen and often feed on those emotions.

The Sith on the other hand are all about letting loose with your feelings. Be it releasing your fury in catharsis, fleeing from or facing a great source of fear, or in nicer cases, indulging in what you love. I remember that healing powers are strangely enough a dark side power too in that regard. So if you let loose and tend to focus on the good sides to life, you can still technically be a decent Sith. Hell, a Sith that specializes in wanting to heal others due to their grief at being unable to help someone back in their younger years would be viable with this logic.

I still however thinks this reeks of wanting to like the villains but lacking the balls to like them for what they are though, ie greyside horseshit. Reminds me way too much of bad Harry Potter fanfiction where they try to equate Dark Arts as not being evil. Which in that series case always ignored how no, you need intent for them to work. So no, you need to indulge in being a shit person to make them work, be it wanting to straight up kill a bitch for the Killing Curse, or wanting a person to feel like their getting skinned and enjoying their screams for the Torture Curse.

Exactly. You can be a Light-Sider who uses Dark Side powers because you've already confronted your fears, your hatred, and you've made peace with that side of yourself. You're no longer being controlled by these emotions, you rule them. Hence why you can use powers related to them without corruption, because the Light has granted you peace that goes beyond mere philosophy.

And yes, a Dark Sider can have healing powers too, although the most I've heard about it was with Darth Plagueis and Darth Sion: Plagueis was supposedly saving people from death according to Sidious, while Sion was saving himself from death.

To me, it shows the Power of the Light Side that you can use it to bend the Dark Side to make it do your will. If the Light is so much more powerful than the Dark, then using it to bend the darkness to your will shouldn't be impossible. And if your mind is concluded, and your heart is at peace, the Dark Side can't hurt you, so you might as well use it for the sake of self-sacrifice and the Light.
 
Agreed 100%. Interestingly enough Mandalorian bucking this trend is a significant part of why the show is so well recieved.

It's probably been discussed in this thread already and I've forgotten but what are peoples thoughts on Clone Wars(2003) vs Clone Wars(2008 ) ? Even before I saw the video I posted I felt 03's series did a more effective job of fleshing out the characters as well as character development, but it I imagine that's a minority opinion. Imo 03 is the better overall series even though 08 has more content. 08 just has way to many bad episodes as well as filler episodes not to mention 08 ends up with every villian(with the possible exception of Papa Palps) being incompetent as opposed to the 03 series villains being the best they have ever been portrayed in some cases.

Kiwis, what say you?

Your question kinda got overlooked and I think it's a good one.

I really like 03 over 08. I'll admit I have a soft spot for genndy and 2d animation so I'm pretty biased on the subject.

The 03 episodes may have been few but the stories and images are really etched into my memory. Especially the whole duel between Anakin and Ventress. That always felt like the moment Anakin went full Vader in my mind.

It's also kinda nice to have something that leans really heavily into the "show, don't tell" rule. Makes it feel a bit more engaging when you don't have characters throw walls of text around to explain things. If I remember correctly there are quite a few episodes that had no dialogue in them.


With 08 I've always been unable to get into it. The animation feels cheap and all the character movements feel really floaty, like they removed all gravity from everything. Toss in my dislike for.most of the humor in it and it's a hard sell for me.
 
Luke Force-Choking the Gammoreans in VI isn't necessarily a light side Force user using a dark side power since the movie focuses on the fact he may well join his father in the Dark Side. That scene is full of symbolism and foreshadowing like with the dark robes he wears, the lighting/shadows, and of course the Force Choke. He has become strong in the Force, but he's also become even more like Vader.
To me, it shows the Power of the Light Side that you can use it to bend the Dark Side to make it do your will. If the Light is so much more powerful than the Dark, then using it to bend the darkness to your will shouldn't be impossible. And if your mind is concluded, and your heart is at peace, the Dark Side can't hurt you, so you might as well use it for the sake of self-sacrifice and the Light.
But anyone can be corrupted by the dark side since people are fallible and not one with the Force. A Jedi would be playing an extremely dangerous game because they're choosing the quick and easy path and opening themselves up to further flaws that lead down the path to the dark side.
 
Luke Force-Choking the Gammoreans in VI isn't necessarily a light side Force user using a dark side power since the movie focuses on the fact he may well join his father in the Dark Side. That scene is full of symbolism and foreshadowing like with the dark robes he wears, the lighting/shadows, and of course the Force Choke. He has become strong in the Force, but he's also become even more like Vader.

But anyone can be corrupted by the dark side since people are fallible and not one with the Force. A Jedi would be playing an extremely dangerous game because they're choosing the quick and easy path and opening themselves up to further flaws that lead down the path to the dark side.

It is. Force Choke is the first Dark Side power we were shown in the films, and a Light-Sided Luke was using it. And no, the movie shows us that Luke was purely Light-Side: the only time he was in danger of joining the Dark Side was when Vader threatened his sister. Otherwise, he was more Light-Sided than the Jedi Masters, who wanted him to KILL Vader and the Emperor, whereas he wanted to redeem the former while passively resisting the latter. The Jedi Masters in ROTJ were closer to being Sith that Luke ever was, because they wanted him to be some kind of cosmic hitman. They wanted the Jedi version of Darth Malgus or Agent 47 with a lightsaber, he went in acting like a peace-loving hippie. The Jedi Masters were the ones who taught him that using the Force for attack is not what a Jedi does, and yet they wanted him to use his strength in the Force to attack and kill Vader and the Emperor, which contradicted their own teachings. Which means that yes, the guy using Darth Vader's signature move on pig guards is more Light-Sided than the two Jedi Masters from the OT.

Not really. Using the powers of the Dark Side only corrupts you if you're already fucked inside. Exar Kun was filled with so much pride. Ulic Qel-Droma was filled with grief. Revan was a psychopath who was sacrificing his own men with barely any emotion towards it all. Phanius/Darth Ruin was solipsistic and narcissistic to the extreme, treating even his Sith minions like shit. Anakin Skywalker was paralyzed by fear and resentment, while Dooku was so blinded by his ego that he even began to believe that he was the Chosen One and not Anakin. Each and every time a Jedi falls to the Dark Side, he was already screwed in the head, and the Dark Side did nothing but reveal the psychosis and weaknesses already existing inside.

Meanwhile, Galen Marek, Kyle Katarn, Mace Windu, and Luke Skywalker weren't corrupted despite using Dark Side powers. Fuck, Luke joins the Emperor on the Dark Side in Dark Empire, yet he shakes it off easily with Leia's help and uses the Emperor's Dark Side knowledge to kill the Emperor and help others counter the Dark Side powers of the Emperor's minions. And again, Galen Marek's tale in Force Unleashed is canon since it's part of Lucas' story, it links Episodes 3 and 4, and it's the story of a Light-Side Sith Apprentice who helped found the Rebel Alliance and was never corrupted by the Dark Side despite heavy usage of it. As a Sith, he was a loyal, honorable man who wouldn't betray his master and just did as he was told, and once he decided to strike out on his own and experiment with things that Vader didn't teach him, he became more noble and Jedi-like, despite using Sith Lightning in the game and the comic long after he quit the Sith.

So no, when Kyle Katarn says that powers aren't evil in themselves, he's telling the truth, and other works that were personally approved of by Lucas support that argument. The only arguments against that notion are a few novels such as the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi series that A) weren't really liked by EU fans and B) Lucas didn't even give a damn about, whereas ROTJ and other works like the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon, Dark Empire, and Force Unleashed (works that Lucas actually had a part in) showed us that using the Dark Side and falling to it are two different things, and one doesn't necessarily lead into the other. Not to mention that more famous works like Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy outright state that the powers of light and dark aren't good or evil by themselves, it's what you use them for that matters.

The idea that you have to be strong in the Dark Side or that you have to fall to the Dark Side to use Dark Side powers properly is something Palpatine pushed in EPIII, and everyone knows that man lies all the time. Palpatine was merely manipulating Anakin for his own ends. He tells Anakin that he has to show no mercy and kill the Jedi ruthlessly to be strong enough in the Dark Side to save Padme, which was proven wrong even before the events of ROTS, since Mace Windu, only a few days beforehand, crushed General Grievous' chest using a Dark Side power without having to kill innocents to power up his Dark Side strength. And of course, Vader's Sith Apprentice is anything but corrupted by the Dark Side, since at worst, he was a punch-clock villain, and it didn't take him that much to embrace the Light while still using Dark Side powers. And yet his Sith training made him into a Force wrecking ball, the kind of guy who could defeat Vader and give Emperor Palpatine a decent fight.

Granted, falling to the Dark Side makes using the Dark Side a lot easier since you can let loose without holding back, while the Light Side Jedi have to control themselves while using Dark Side powers, but there's enough examples of Light-Siders remaining in control despite using the Dark Side that it disproves LOTF and FOTJ's assertion that you can't use the Dark Side without getting corrupted. There's way too many examples of it being a viable option that to say that you can't use the Dark Side without getting corrupted by it is not only ignoring the films, but also some of the more prominent EU works as well-works that Lucas had a good amount of input on. When the author of Star Wars agreed with works showing that one can use the Dark Side and yet remain on the Light, that's as conclusive as you can get that the very idea of a Light-Side Sith is a very viable one, especially when the good guy faction in the films had a Light-Sided Sith as one of their founders.
 
Last edited:
In the films, it's pretty established that Luke wasn't really ready at first and had a chance to go dark throughout. It's most noted in the Cave at Dagobah, where Luke fails the training by choosing to fight with his darker aspects and fears that he'll become like his father. He also decided to rush off due to his fears of his friends, further proving he wasn't ready and still at risk to falling to the dark side.

His younger self also genuinely believed and wanted to murder Vader for killing his father and being responsible in part for the execution of his aunt and uncle. His purification to only being on the light side only came when he finally shrugged off the corruption near the end, which was a beyond heroic moment because he was tempted and intimidated by Sheev. I will agree that he is closer to the ideal Jedi in act than his masters, mainly because he does at least sense good in others and tries to convert them before yeeting them.

And I'll confess, the other examples are half freeform games. The two other games listed have confirmed character plots, but I could've sworn Katarn agreed with that statement before he fully was trained. I'll confess it has been a good while since I played the Jedi Knight series though, so my memory is fuzzy. Was it the Mysteries of the Sith expansion pack he says that in? Because if so I didn't play that. I do remember him having to yeet a bunch of Dark Jedi though which shows this decision is still usually stupid though. Using the Dark Side is still like taking meth.

I'll admit, the big reason I dislike this approach is purely because to me, this is pretty much like whenever Dave Filoni, Disney, or a fanfiction writer tries to write Grey users in the force. I always hated that tbh, since it ignores that the one side is intoxicating and requires intent to perform; you need to want someone dead to force choke them. It always screamed completely of "I want to be a good guy and choke and shock people to death too" tbh.
 
Managed to find a higher quality version of Ron Cobb's unused gorilla alien with some actual details.
View attachment 1622342View attachment 1622348View attachment 1622446
Apparently it was an arctic creature that was mammal-like. Can't make out the third line but I think it says "fish eater". Described as "very strong" and "very gentle". Its one of the few rejected designs to not appear anywhere, but I think one issue of the old Marvel comics may have had one. And there was a species called a Najib (pictured on the right) which were also based on apes, had eight fingers, furry bodies, sharp teeth like in the commercial and big heads. Only difference is that they had hair on their heads and four nostrils with two being above their mouths, but they liked the cold, were very strong and very friendly.


Also since I shared parts of the Monsters and Aliens Guide in my last Ron Cobb post, I thought I'd share the rest of the guide's content since it contains artwork of unused aliens and creatures from several Lucasfilm projects some by Cobb others by many different artists, but mostly Ralph McQuarrie.

View attachment 1622433
Apparently a rejected creature from Willow called an Ingka. Some sort of viking dogman that according to the book lives by a pledge of plunder and pillaging that frowns upon love and generosity.

View attachment 1622396
A prototype Rancor.

View attachment 1622397
I can only guess that maybe its an early Tusken raider or Kubaz design?

View attachment 1622401View attachment 1622406
This one is an early concept design for Jabba by McQuarrie and it was previously shown in the ROTJ art book. The book refers to it as Ytha, a lonely creature looking for a date. The design was re-used in 1990 for a Hutt subspecies called Quockrans (right).

View attachment 1622405
Another Jabba concept art.

View attachment 1622410View attachment 1622411
A Bith song (not the Modal Nodes from the Cantina, but a different band apparently).

View attachment 1622415View attachment 1622424
Unused alien that were originally rejected designs for Bib Fortuna from ROTJ. The two eventually ended up being added into lore in the form of the Adnerem species.

View attachment 1622429
Concept art of some beast called a Smapp. Maybe a rejected proto-Bantha design? The book also featured instructions on how to cook it. It ended up being brought into lore via a prequel tie-in at SW.com which had it as one of the foods served at Dex's Diner.

View attachment 1622437
No idea wtf this is. The page accompanying it is some sort of disturbing poem comparing it to a nightmare.

View attachment 1622439View attachment 1622440View attachment 1622442
Two concept designs for the Eborsisk dragons from the movie Willow.

View attachment 1622443View attachment 1622458
A rejected concept art for Jabba. Was later brought into lore in the form of the Berrite species. Probably the ugliest alien in old canon alongside the Vuvrians. They were also the loony troony trannies of the galaxy, constantly switching pronouns and wanting special treatment for their fat carcasses for no reason. Likely shared a common ancestry with Hutts.

View attachment 1622465View attachment 1622466
Probably concept art for alien 23 of the cantina, later named Brangus which went unused in the film.

View attachment 1622468
Possibly a rejected Ewok design.

View attachment 1622469
Something called a Heep-Heep.

View attachment 1622471
Concept art of "Prod", either a Willow or ROTJ reject meant to serve as a guard.

View attachment 1622474
Jabba the Hutt concept turned into its own unique character which later appeared in a prequel holonet tie-in.

View attachment 1622476
Possibly rejected creatures from Willow or ROTJ or some other project.

View attachment 1622486
A wanted poster using concept art of one of the main villains from the second Ewoks movie.

There's a few more but mostly rejected Jabba designs.

Wow, that Ingka creature. When I saw that I was transported back over 20 years. That was used on the cover of a book I believe, I know that image. Do yall remember where that was used before?

ETA: I should have read nore carefully Monsters and Aliens Guide this one was on the cover correct?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: GeneralFriendliness
But all this does is nullify pre-existing stories and the darker implications that made ROTS deep for the sake of salvaging Filoni's own OCs because he wanted them to be good boys who dindunuffin. The man even wanted to go against the films and have Plo Koon survive Order 66 via parachute or jetpack. It just takes away character and the dark moral implications of these characters by reducing it all down to "its just a chip".

For reference, here's the 501st journal as narrated by Temuera Morrison.

Even in ROTS commentary George mentions that it was a last resort order that was taught, not programmed. Hence why you had a lone clone rebellion on Murkhana. The chip just removes any moral dilemma and internal narrative for the clones and it also ends up making Palpatine look like an idiot by implanting a chip that enforces the 150 General Orders, one of which includes his own assassination, but knowing Filoni, the other 149 orders didn't exist to him. Another issue is that the chip as depicted in the show's introduction of them makes clones act like half brain-dead zombies, a further contrast to what we clearly saw on film and other media where they were fully aware of what they were doing with max efficiency.

Palpatine was indeed the highlight of 2008 and the depiction of his political persona was very in-line with everything we knew about him, and his takeover of the banks (despite the Muun arc's own flaws) was a very powerful scene. As for Anakin's fall though, it was practically a mute point in the show that hardly ever came up except for one instance of him strangling Poggle and the Son corrupting him for a bit, with the only best instance being the few times he talks to Palpatine. Otherwise, Anakin's portrayal is completely distinct from what we saw in the movies, now being some generic swashbuckler who talks like a smooth player, in contrast to Genndy Wars where Anakin's corruption is far more obvious and handled with more impact that reflects what we see in the films and he is actually like the character we see in the films while not being as robotic. Overall Anakin's "future vision" was more brilliantly handled in the final chapter of Genndy Wars than the Mortis Arc, where on Mortis, Anakin basically just gets hit with the evil shovel with no subtlety and its all easily brushed away with the wave of a hand with only a lingering corruption implied to be a third party's fault rather than his own, eliminating much of his free will.
And then there's Dooku's portrayal... but that's a whole other can of worms I've been over too many times in this thread.


For what it is worth, Anakin's portrayal could work, if it was earned.

It wasn't. CW deux worked at first because it was set after Gennedy's first arc and before RoTS. Development could happen off screen. It ran into The Last Jedi problem in season 7 because Filoni needed to rub his stink on the clone wars definitively. If you open up right where the last movie left off, there's no room for character changes or shifts in power. It's bad writing.

By the way.

Have any of you read Dune? It's long been speculated that Dune, and specifically Jodorowsky's Dune script were inspirations for a New Hope.
 
In the films, it's pretty established that Luke wasn't really ready at first and had a chance to go dark throughout. It's most noted in the Cave at Dagobah, where Luke fails the training by choosing to fight with his darker aspects and fears that he'll become like his father. He also decided to rush off due to his fears of his friends, further proving he wasn't ready and still at risk to falling to the dark side.

His younger self also genuinely believed and wanted to murder Vader for killing his father and being responsible in part for the execution of his aunt and uncle. His purification to only being on the light side only came when he finally shrugged off the corruption near the end, which was a beyond heroic moment because he was tempted and intimidated by Sheev. I will agree that he is closer to the ideal Jedi in act than his masters, mainly because he does at least sense good in others and tries to convert them before yeeting them.

And I'll confess, the other examples are half freeform games. The two other games listed have confirmed character plots, but I could've sworn Katarn agreed with that statement before he fully was trained. I'll confess it has been a good while since I played the Jedi Knight series though, so my memory is fuzzy. Was it the Mysteries of the Sith expansion pack he says that in? Because if so I didn't play that. I do remember him having to yeet a bunch of Dark Jedi though which shows this decision is still usually stupid though. Using the Dark Side is still like taking meth.

I'll admit, the big reason I dislike this approach is purely because to me, this is pretty much like whenever Dave Filoni, Disney, or a fanfiction writer tries to write Grey users in the force. I always hated that tbh, since it ignores that the one side is intoxicating and requires intent to perform; you need to want someone dead to force choke them. It always screamed completely of "I want to be a good guy and choke and shock people to death too" tbh.

Luke went off to save his friends due to his selfless nature. He abandoned the prospect of more power to save the people who fought and bled alongside him, knowing that he might get creamed. Which actually makes him closer to the Light than Yoda, a guy who tells you that you shouldn't use the Force for attack, then later tells Luke that he should totes kill the Emperor with his strength in the Force. This is why I like the prequel Jedi more than the OT Jedi: at least they didn't try to hide behind stupid koans like "war does not make one great" when in the end, they wanted a warrior to kill the enemy. That's pretty close to the Dark Side for a Grand Jedi Master. Hence why I preferred Yoda from the Prequels, where he fought to defend what he saw as civilization.

Who told Luke that Vader killed his father? The Jedi. They WANTED Luke to come at Vader all blood-hungry and ready to kill. They wanted him to be a murderer. Their only objection was that Luke didn't finish his training. If they had their way, Luke would have killed Vader before the latter revealed that he was Anakin Skywalker. Whereas in EPVI, Luke already showed more light and purity than them because he wanted to save people like Vader from the Dark Side, and he passively resisted the Emperor, whereas if Yoda was in his position, he'd be striking to kill. Which again, shows more Light on Luke's side even before he shook off his anger later on.

And again, Force Unleashed has the protagonist use the Dark Side all the time, and yet he was never corrupted by it. And Force Unleashed is Lucas' story to connect the two trilogies of SW movies, while every other novel that goes against the idea that you can use the Dark Side without getting corrupted isn't even worth mentioning to Lucas. Lucas personally approved of the idea that a Light-Side Sith who uses Dark Side powers was one of the founders of the Rebel Alliance.

Well, some good guys do strangle people to near-death. Remember Ned Stark from Game of Thrones? Or his nephew Jon Snow? Both tried to strangle Littlefinger, and yet both men were as pure as clear water when it came to morals. That, and I wasn't talking about Grey Jedi in the least-I was talking about those who remain in the Light who use the Dark Side. That, and Dave Filoni was basically just copying KOTOR 2 when he tries to pull Grey shit, and not even that well, since all his Jedi characters end up falling on the Light Side anyways.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: GeneralFriendliness
All this talk of TCW makes me want to revisit it and see if it holds up as well as I remember--and more importantly, how well it stands against the Clone Wars Multimedia project, the majority of which I haven't actually read through. Maybe after I run out of post-Endor stories to give my lengthy impressions on, doing reviews of the Multimedia project and then an arc-by-arc coverage of TCW for comparison is something I can tackle next (except for TCW Season 7, which isn't canon to the EU).

That is, if anyone is even remotely interested in reading that. I know that my perspective would likely clash with a lot of people's here.
 
All this talk of TCW makes me want to revisit it and see if it holds up as well as I remember--and more importantly, how well it stands against the Clone Wars Multimedia project, the majority of which I haven't actually read through. Maybe after I run out of post-Endor stories to give my lengthy impressions on, doing reviews of the Multimedia project and then an arc-by-arc coverage of TCW for comparison is something I can tackle next (except for TCW Season 7, which isn't canon to the EU).

That is, if anyone is even remotely interested in reading that. I know that my perspective would likely clash with a lot of people's here.

When it comes to comparing TCW with the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, the latter has more range, since entire comics and novels and games can focus on any given character or topic, but TCW has more narrative unity, since the same crew is working on all the episodes. The Clone Wars Multimedia Project has a great library and expanded upon many of the characters, but storytelling and character portrayals were kind of all over the place: some works like the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon and the Republic comic series treat the Jedi as the good guys and have people praising them while they show off neat powers, other books have the exact opposite and demonize the Jedi while praising someone else as being better, ie. the Republic Commando novels.

Some characters can also have varying depictions: Grievous in the 2003 cartoon was known as "White Vader" by the fans because he was so good at killing Jedi and was so badass, yet in the Labyrinth of Evil novel, Sidious casually mind-rapes him in a conversation. The Jedi are depicted as caring generals who love their men by one author, then they are depicted as amoral dickheads who use clones as suicide soldiers by another author. In works like Galactic Battlegrounds, Jedi generals like Sev'rance Tann and Echuu Shen-Jon were military masterminds, in the Republic Commando books, they're failures who don't even deserve to command a parade, let alone an army. Taken together, it's kind of a mess. A pretty entertaining and beautiful mess, but it was still kind of a mess.

Meanwhile, TCW mostly has a unified vision and message. It was more childish at times, nerfing some of the characters that had near-godlike combat skills in previous works like Grievous, but in other things, it sometimes did a better job than the previous works.

Take the Mandalorians, for example: The depiction of the Mandalorians in the Republic Commando novels came off as a Mary Suetopia where the Mandalorians are just right, they're the honorable good guy warriors while the Jedi are big fat hypocritical meanies, which ends up wearing out its welcome when the reader happens to have played enough games and read enough books to know that Karen Traviss is talking out of her ass, but in TCW, you have two groups of Mandalorians who have decent, understandable reasons for their ideologies: the Pacifists saw how previous conflicts between Mandalorian warrior clans has sapped the planet's strength, and so they wished to pursue a peaceful path of economic development that would gain them soft power when it comes to politics, while the Death Watch are true believers in the Mandalorian warrior ways and they have legitimate grievances concerning the pacifists stomping all over Mandalorian traditions that are thousands of years old. Neither side is perfect: the Pacifists don't use their economic strength for military purposes, which makes it easy to plot against them, and there's way too much corruption in their ranks, while the Death Watch are assholes who murder civilians on a whim, and outside of Maul coming in to advise them, they couldn't even conquer a planet ruled by pacifist hippies. But they both had advantages, since the Death Watch warriors are some of the best, and the pacifists have a lot of friends outside their own domain, from the neutral systems to the Jedi Order. That's a more nuanced take on the ancient warrior race than just having them be a Suetopia while the author spends more time shitting on the Jedi rather than actually showing the kind of Operator shit that Republic Commandos should be doing.

However, TCW also has its flaws, especially in terms of focus. Since there's less material than the old Clone Wars multimedia project, we can't get enough focus on characters Filoni doesn't care much about. Characters like Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, among others, deserve to be more than just cameos. Instead, Filoni has episodes like smugglers who fail at smuggling or some little people stuff instead of putting in episodes concerning Delta Squadron or some other Jedi. Barriss Offee's fall to the Dark Side was out of the blue.

It also makes no sense in some arcs, especially in the Wrong Jedi arc, where Tarkin persecutes Ahsoka Tano despite the fact that the latter saved his life and he knows Ahsoka is close to Anakin, another one of the Chancellor's favorites. Why the hell would Tarkin persecute Anakin's prized apprentice, when the two of them were portrayed as close friends in the first SW movie? I'm surprised Tarkin didn't get an impromptu Force Choke from Anakin for that. Similarly, the Order 66 brain chips makes no sense, since if that was the case, that they only killed the Jedi because of a trance, the clones would have revolted once the chip's effects wore off. That, and Rex knew about the chips, so it makes no sense that the clones weren't saved from the chips-the only logical conclusion to that story arc would be that the clone commanders and their soldiers all get a weird cut across their heads, and they tell Sidious to bite their plastoid-encased butts the moment he issues Order 66. At least in the old media, nobody knew about Order 66 since EPIII wasn't written yet, and it came as a surprise kick to the nuts when it finally happened.

So yeah, there's my assessment of the differences between TCW and the old Clone Wars multimedia project. My solution to the problems in both is to just pick and choose which parts of both I count as part of my own personal Clone Wars canon.
 
Back