Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[GranDuke]

Being able to do comics on your own does not mean that you should be immune to failure.

 

[Rupin]

Being able to do comics on your own does not mean that you should be immune to failure.

i think the customers decide that. The problem is getting their eyes on your project and CG has been one of the better ways of solving that problem.

 

[Newman's Own]

i bullcrap on that. CG and CG connected projects tend to do better overall then independent projects outside of that circle as a whole. So yes it is needed because I see an awful lot of projects outside of the CG sphere that underperform or fail without funding. At least with CG you have a safety net of extra support.

Lot's of CG projects under perform or fail. Crowdfunding existed before CG and it's funded a lot of comics. Ethan acts like he invented crowd funding and indy comics.

ComicsGate makes it possible to do comics on your own terms. That's why it's valuable and important.

That's bullshit. His simps might buy into that line but no one with half a brain does. Indies have been around for 50 years or more and online crowd funding started over 20 years ago.

Sure being buddies with Ethan will keep Cecil stocked up on vodka and make sure Malin has enough weed and barbiturates to put a horse in a coma but being Ethan's buddy isn't a scalable model for success in comics for the rest of humanity and the chance for CG success drops off very fast the further one gets from Ethan's orbit.

Believe it or not, there are tons of creators out there finding success in indy comics without the CG hashtag so it isn't 'CG making it possible to make comics on your own terms'. ComicsGate is just a weird niche in the indy comics scene. Let's not pretend that it's the second coming of Christ even if CG managed to get Wart the Wizard and Littlest Umbrella Girl funded.

 

[Rupin]

Lot's of CG projects under perform or fail. Crowdfunding existed before CG and it's funded a lot of comics. Ethan acts like he invented crowd funding and indy comics.

That's bullshit. His simps might buy into that line but no one with half a brain does. Indies have been around for 50 years or more and online crowd funding started over 20 years ago.

Sure being buddies with Ethan will keep Cecil stocked up on vodka and make sure Malin has enough weed and barbiturates to put a horse in a coma but being Ethan's buddy isn't a scalable model for success in comics for the rest of humanity and the chances for CG success drops off very fast the further one gets from Ethan's orbit.

Believe it or not, there are tons of creators out there finding success in indy comics without the CG hashtag so it isn't 'CG making it possible to make comics on your own terms'. ComicsGate is just a weird niche in the indy comics scene. Let's not pretend that it's the second coming of Christ even if CG managed to get Wart the Wizard and Littlest Umbrella Girl funded.

How does Ethan act like he invented it when he is on record saying that Zach was the one who got him into crowdfunding coming and is constantly referencing Billy Tucci as being one of the first to crowdfund comics?

Malin actually has talent and his own rabid group of fans that will fund his books because his art is good and he delivers on time, and Cecil... well he’s Cecil and his ability to deliver his will determine how well he does in the future.

I think it’s already been shown plenty of times that just because Ethan puts his stamp of approval on a project doesn’t mean that his fans will jump at it and make it a 100k success. We’ve seen that with Art Post, Shane Davis, Aaron Lopresti and even Nasser.

 

[Newman's Own]

How does Ethan act like he invented it?

See my quote of Ethan from the post above. And don't be so literal. We're not all autistic here.

 

[Rupin]

See my quote of Ethan from the post above. And don't be so literal. We're not all autistic here.

and I gave you instances where he gives credit where credit is due. You’ve got such a hate boner for Ethan that it makes all his other A Logs look normal in comparison.

 

[FROG]

Lot's of CG projects under perform or fail. Crowdfunding existed before CG and it's funded a lot of comics. Ethan acts like he invented crowd funding and indy comics.

That's bullshit. His simps might buy into that line but no one with half a brain does. Indies have been around for 50 years or more and online crowd funding started over 20 years ago.

Sure being buddies with Ethan will keep Cecil stocked up on vodka and make sure Malin has enough weed and barbiturates to put a horse in a coma but being Ethan's buddy isn't a scalable model for success in comics for the rest of humanity and the chance for CG success drops off very fast the further one gets from Ethan's orbit.

Believe it or not, there are tons of creators out there finding success in indy comics without the CG hashtag so it isn't 'CG making it possible to make comics on your own terms'. ComicsGate is just a weird niche in the indy comics scene. Let's not pretend that it's the second coming of Christ even if CG managed to get Wart the Wizard and Littlest Umbrella Girl funded.

No, there are SOME creators out there finding success in indie comics, and most of them are still using the Direct Market. Most of those creators have had long careers in comics and have earned cache in the process, others are excellent self promoters. Many are having to resort to unions managed by Camilla Zhang.

The vast majority of creators flop with crowdfunding. Even if they do have 30-40 years in comics. Crowdfunding is crowded and marketing is difficult or costly.

It doesn't have to be The Second Coming of Christ, it just has to defy mainstream gatekeepers and get more comics funded.

 

[Mister Dongs]

Believe it or not, there are tons of creators out there finding success in indy comics without the CG hashtag so it isn't 'CG making it possible to make comics on your own terms'. ComicsGate is just a weird niche in the indy comics scene. Let's not pretend that it's the second coming of Christ even if CG managed to get Wart the Wizard and Littlest Umbrella Girl funded.

I'm going to question your use of the word "tons" there, Newman's. Old pros like Graham Nolan, Mike Baron, Bily Tucci, Chuck Dixon and Bill Willingham aren't getting on board with Comicsgate because the latest issue of Squirrel Girl has sent them off into a manchild rage, or really want to make a drunken ass out of themselves on youtube or whatever; they're getting on board because they've decided it's the best decision given their options and their prospects of reinventing themselves as youtube sensations.

And I get the feeling they're much more aware of their situation than you or I. Nolan made it plain in one interview when he says that once you hit a certain age, the big publishers will stop offering you work in favor of the new flavor of the month (King, Zdarsky, Cates for now).

 

[A nameless trool]

The only good SJW comic ever produced was Saga. All others besides that that have gone down the SJW route, are responsible for turning the industry into the flaming pile of shit it is today. When you have to depend on YA novels and some badly drawn comic about a superhero dog to tout the mainstream’s sales figures, you things are bad. There is nothing subjective about the steady decline of the comic book industry for the past 5 years.

I'd argue that SJWs ape Brian K. Vaughan and Saga is not an SJW comic, but a comic SJWs wished they made.

As for if CG is selling on merit or on a movement, no. CG sells on parasocial relationships: Comic fans watch creators bitch about SJW comics on youtube, they feel connected to them and buy their books based on their relationship.
This is why so many similar IGG campaigns fail when not made by the big CG creators or their favourites. YBZ stumbled upon this by accident, @FROG has perfected this in his marketing.

 

[NasserRabadi13]

I think a livestream debate between @FROG and @Mecha on what Comicsgate means to each of them might actually make for an interesting stream. One thing Comicsgate lacks in terms of content is that normally all the panelists agree with one another and there's rarely any dissenting opinions which makes some of the shows predictable and repetitive.

Another suggestion Ethan would be to bring on Charlie's London as a guest too, I believe she had previously stated she'd be willing to debate Mecha on the merits of her book. Charlies London has three days left in it's campaign, so scheduling this debate might make a great way for her to promote her book in the final days of the campaign.
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I'd recommend the show start with no more than four panelists, yourself, Mecha, Charlie's London and possibly Cecil for comedic relief every once in a while. The show could begin with Mecha expressing his opinions and thoughts on the book and give Charlie a chance to address them. Once that first topic has been discussed, perhaps Charlie could leave the panel and then Jon Malin, Dan Fraga or another pro could join and then the second topic of Comicsgate itself could be discussed.

Mecha has shown on previous livestreams that he can be polite and cordial without resorting to cursing or making a complete ass of himself like Berserk Guts and Ryzie Lee. These series of debates could make for an entertaining stream and give Mecha, Charlie and yourself a chance to voice your points without resorting to text on twitter and kiwifarms.

I think the audience would enjoy it.

Great idea.

"ComicsGate makes it possible to do comics on your own terms."

Yeah, you can suck Frog's dick on your own terms.

Mad at the internet.

The vast majority of creators flop with crowdfunding. Even if they do have 30-40 years in comics. Crowdfunding is crowded and marketing is difficult or costly.

Steve Ditko was crowdfunding on Kickstarter to the tune of $5,000 per book. Even the guy who co-created Spider-Man and Doctor Strange didn't do so well in crowdfunding.

 

[Newman's Own]

I'm going to question your use of the word "tons" there, Newman's. Old pros like Graham Nolan, Mike Baron, Bily Tucci, Chuck Dixon and Bill Willingham aren't getting on board with Comicsgate because the latest issue of Squirrel Girl has sent them off into a manchild rage, or really want to make a drunken ass out of themselves on youtube or whatever; they're getting on board because they've decided it's the best decision given their options and their prospects of reinventing themselves as youtube sensations.

And I get the feeling they're much more aware of their situation than you or I. Nolan made it plain in one interview when he says that once you hit a certain age, the big publishers will stop offering you work in favor of the new flavor of the month (King, Zdarsky, Cates for now).

Mike Baron and Chuck Dixon aren't getting on board with ComicsGate. Quite the opposite really. They did get on board initially but have since shyly backed away trying not to piss off the rabid beast they thought was a gentle pup. Did Willingham declare himself CG? I thought that was still just a rumor.

My point wasn't that CG can't be lucrative. As I stated it obviously can be very profitable for those in the tightest orbits around The Grand Poobah but that benefit has steeply declining returns for all planets as their orbits get further from the YouTube star. CG is making it possible for a relatively small number in the indy galaxy.

It's not hard to imagine that Malin may or may not have failed without CG and Cecil would have never gotten his "Cash Grab" without Ethan and his following but others manage without 'the human sunbeam'.

My point was that CG isn't the thing that "makes it possible to do comics on your own terms". A lofty claim that is factually incorrect despite the sperging of a particular anime fan. In fact it's crowdfunding and indy comics in general that make that possible as I stated. I'm not saying that CG hasn't helped a relative few lucky creators and wannabes achieve their goals with many of them even making a huge profit. I've stated the opposite. My point is that CG, though an undeniable and lucrative part of the crowd funding eco system, is not in fact the part that makes the whole ecosystem of indy comics possible as the Frog inferred. If that were the case SGM, McFarlane, TenNaple and the thousands of non-CG comics creators that have funded the last few years would have failed.

To be honest I didn't think this was a controversial statement worthy of a purple haired anime avatar straw-manning it for a page of this thread but here we are.

 

[Greed]

It appears Frog thought it would be a good idea to make Sketch Therapy a moderator in his chat. Not sure what benefit is gained by granting power to a guy who calls you a "phoqing backstabbing phoq" fifty times per stream but for what it's worth I hear he's already banned two people over nothing. At this point I'm fairly certain the only requirement for being a mod on Frog's channel is that Frog knows you exist.

 

[Newman's Own]

I'd argue that SJWs ape Brian K. Vaughan and Saga is not an SJW comic, but a comic SJWs wished they made.

Saga's main themes revolve around social justice narratives about race and politics. It's an SJW book without doubt. It just happens to be well written and compelling which is rare in "progressive" circles.

Steve Ditko was crowdfunding on Kickstarter to the tune of $5,000 per book. Even the guy who co-created Spider-Man and Doctor Strange didn't do so well in crowdfunding.

Steve Ditko was also a half century past his prime and in the habit of telling the world to go fuck it-self. Not great marketing for crowd funding.

It's a testament to Steve's immense talent and legacy that his crowd funders succeeded at all.

 

[Rupin]

Mike Baron and Chuck Dixon aren't getting on board with ComicsGate. Quite the opposite really. They did get on board initially but have since shyly backed away trying not to piss off the rabid beast they thought was a gentle pup. Did Willingham declare himself CG? I thought that was still just a rumor.

My point wasn't that CG can't be lucrative. As I stated it obviously can be very profitable for those in the tightest orbits around The Grand Poobah but that benefit has steeply declining returns for all planets as their orbits get further from the YouTube star. CG is making it possible for a relatively small number in the indy galaxy.

It's not hard to imagine that Malin may or may not have failed without CG and Cecil would have never gotten his "Cash Grab" without Ethan and his following but others manage without 'the human sunbeam'.

My point was that CG isn't the thing that "makes it possible to do comics on your own terms". A lofty claim that is factually incorrect despite the sperging of a particular anime fan. In fact it's crowdfunding and indy comics in general that make that possible as I stated. I'm not saying that CG hasn't helped a relative few lucky creators and wannabes achieve their goals with many of them even making a huge profit. I've stated the opposite. My point is that CG, though an undeniable and lucrative part of the crowd funding eco system, is not in fact the part that makes the whole ecosystem of indy comics possible as the Frog inferred. If that were the case SGM, McFarlane, TenNaple and the thousands of non-CG comics creators that have funded the last few years would have failed.

To be honest I didn't think this was a controversial statement worthy of a purple haired anime avatar straw-manning it for a page of this thread but here we are.

McFarlane, Tenaple and SGM are horrible examples of your argument. For one, Doug And Todd both have iconic IPs to their name with a big fan base to boot and are going to fund regardless. SGM was the hottest artist at DC and his arrival into crowdfunding was highly anticipated until he decided that he liked having a fence post shoved up his ass. The point is these guys are names, big names. Small indie creators and even professionals who don’t have the gift of gab would do well to have a platform like CG to get their product out. And let’s be honest here, everyone who has left CG has seen a severe decrease in their sales and if they never were in CG, their politics had better be on the Left side of history or they won‘t be supported at all.

Anyway, this topic is a lot more interesting than hearing people bitch about Ethan all the time.

 

[Newman's Own]

McFarlane, Tenaple and SGM are horrible examples of your argument. For one, Doug And Todd both have iconic IPs to their name with a big fan base to boot and are going to fund regardless. SGM was the hottest artist at DC and his arrival into crowdfunding was highly anticipated until he decided that he liked having a fence post shoved up his ass. The point is these guys are names, big names. Small indie creators and even professionals who don’t have the gift of gab would do well to have a platform like CG to get their product out. And let’s be honest here, everyone who has left CG has seen a severe decrease in their sales and if they never were in CG, their politics had better be on the Left side of history or they won‘t be supported at all.

Anyway, this topic is a lot more interesting than hearing people bitch about Ethan all the time.

I'm not even sure you understand my argument at this point. You keep arguing against a thesis I haven't made.

 

[Mister Dongs]

Mike Baron and Chuck Dixon aren't getting on board with ComicsGate. Quite the opposite really. They did get on board initially but have since shyly backed away trying not to piss off the rabid beast they thought was a gentle pup.

Weird way of showing it. I think I'll stick to my original statement, that these guys are turning to Comicsgate because it's the best financial option in their estimation.

My point is that CG, though an undeniable and lucrative part of the crowd funding eco system, is not in fact the part that makes the whole ecosystem of indy comics possible as the Frog inferred. If that were the case SGM, McFarlane, TenNaple and the thousands of non-CG comics creators that have funded the last few years would have failed.

So, because the premiere Batman creator in DC Comics right now was able to crowdfund slightly less than "Cecil", that doesn't mean anything because you've set the burden of proof for that Todd McFarlane and SGM's campaigns have to fail to fund completely for Comicsgate's practices to be proven legitimate.

 

[Rupin]

I'm not even sure you understand my argument at this point. You keep arguing against a thesis I haven't made.
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your arguement is that CG is not necessary for creators to make books before 2018 and it isn’t now. This is was true before the industry started getting flushed down the toilet with books full of SJW politics and weirdo point of views. CG offers a more viable alternative to making your book then just going out on your own especially, if you are outspoken with a worldview that is contrary to what the mainstream would deem acceptable. I‘m saying it’s necessary because it shook up the comic industry and it offers creators a more better way to get their books out there to potential customers.

 

[Newman's Own]

So, because the premiere Batman creator in DC Comics right now was able to crowdfund slightly less than "Cecil", that doesn't mean anything because you've set the burden of proof for that Todd McFarlane and SGM's campaigns have to fail to fund completely for Comicsgate's practices to be proven legitimate.

You're arguing against the same guy @TrunksFromDragonballGT is. That guy isn't me. If a variation of "so what your saying is" is how you begin a counter argument it's likely you aren't adressing the actual argument.

I just said 'people manage to make indy comics without CG'. I'm not sure why anyone would argue this point. Arguments about degrees of profitability while interesting don't address my argument at all.

 

[FROG]

Donal Delay encounters shipping problems with Brutas. Is this real or just an excuse?

 

[Rupin]

You're arguing against the same guy @TrunksFromDragonballGT is. That guy isn't me. If a variation of "so what your saying is" is how you begin a counter argument it's likely you aren't adressing the actual argument.

I just said people manage to make indy comics without CG. I'm not sure why anyone would argue this point. Arguments about degrees of profitability while interesting don't address my argument at all.

you lost, bruh. Get over it. And Chuck Dixon has been dealing with a CG a long time. As evidenced with his work with Zack and association with Sweetcast.