Anti-Vax Movement

[Cuck Norris]

I personally wrestle with this issue, not because vaccines cause autism (they don't) or even any other issues, but because I have an issue with the government telling you what medical treatments you can, can't, or must take.

That being said, the California bill revising exemptions on vaccines is not particularly objectionable, because your way "out" is still homeschooling. In this sense, you're not mandating vaccines per se, you're mandating that all who attend public school get vaccinated. I believe it's a fair enough compromise to ask that if you're going to enroll your child into a public environment where disease can spread rapidly, that they should get vaccinated against the diseases.

The kids responsible for the Cali Measles outbreak were homeschooled. They would need to be restricted from going out in public. People that make the "government has no business" argument always ignore the importance of "herd immunity". Some people want to be vaccinated and for various reasons they can't. Vaccinating those that can be protects those that can't. There are literally zero factual arguments against vaccination.

 

[Watcher]

I personally wrestle with this issue, not because vaccines cause autism (they don't) or even any other issues, but because I have an issue with the government telling you what medical treatments you can, can't, or must take.

The problem with this is that this doesn't only encapsulate individual rights.

Not vaccinating allows diseases to mutate because they fester in the human body. Which means potentially people who are already vaccinated can get sick because of them. This means not vaccinating risks an epidemic that affects other people. It's flat out irresponsible to not vaccinate.

Also this law is extremely liberal. For one it lets you wait until 7th grade. Autism manifests in very early childhood and as does ADHD. Even if the theory that vaccinating causes those things wasn't bullshit this gives you the easiest out possible.

Not vaccinating because of "muh rights" is the same as claiming you should be able to carry a gun in a school because of "muh rights", or that you should be allowed to build and sell houses that fall apart because of "muh rights". When you endanger other people due to your arrogance it ceases to become an issue of individual rights.

 

[YI 457]

A six-year-old boy from Olot, Catalonia, who had contracted diptheria died in the early hours of Saturday morning. The youngster, whose parents had chosen not to vaccinate him against the disease, had been in the intensive care unit of Vall d’Hebron hospital for 25 days, but was unable to overcome the effect the illness had had on his organs.

The Health Ministry registered the last case in 1987. Catalonia had not seen a case for 32 years.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/06/29/inenglish/1435559306_461811.html

Poor kid. Fuck these people.

 

[Peter Capaldi]

And then this:

The mother and father of the six-year-old who is fighting for his life at the Intensive Care Unit of Barcelona’s Vall de Hebron hospital are “destroyed and feel cheated” by the anti-vaccination movement that convinced them not to immunize their son.

No, you were the idiots for not listening to medical specialists instead of a bunch of loonies. That kid is dead thanks to you. Please never reproduce again. Kids don't deserve parents like you.

 

[Watcher]

It's very rare the child chooses not to vaccinate. The majority of the time the parents choose to not vaccinate their children. So this is imposing a belief on a person who is too young to understand you're endangering their life. It's very easy to equate not vaccinating with choosing not to take your child to the hospital because of faith healing. It's also an example of "individual rights".

 

[AnOminous]

I personally wrestle with this issue, not because vaccines cause autism (they don't) or even any other issues, but because I have an issue with the government telling you what medical treatments you can, can't, or must take.

This is where the lolbertarian viewpoint breaks absolutely, because infectious diseases are an area where there is nothing purely personal. Your dumbass decisions directly affect other people.

 

[Lunete]

Like so: You go to the tweet's page, copy the link, click the film icon, paste it there, et voila:
Wow, Jim Carrey? I knew he became unfunny, but apparently also incredibly stupid.

It's true these chemicals are in vaccines, but there in such tiny amounts the body doesn't even realize they're there.

Myth #4: Vaccines contain unsafe toxins.
People have concerns over the use of formaldehyde, mercury or aluminum in vaccines. It’s true that these chemicals are toxic to the human body in certain levels, but only trace amounts of these chemicals are used in FDA approved vaccines. In fact, according to the FDA and the CDC, formaldehyde is produced at higher rates by our own metabolic systems and there is no scientific evidence that the low levels of this chemical, mercury or aluminum in vaccines can be harmful. See section III of this guide to review safety information about these chemicals and how they are used in vaccines.

http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/vaccine-myths-debunked/

 

[Thiletonomics]

Regarding all these examples of anti-vaxxers using their vaccinated children (which were vaccinated either out of previous "ignorance", or forced by law), have they ever used older people as "proof" of the dangers of vaccines? I keep thinking that they would use someone like a CWC or ADF as an example of vaccination gone wrong.

 

[Watcher]

It's true these chemicals are in vaccines, but there in such tiny amounts the body doesn't even realize they're there.



http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/vaccine-myths-debunked/

It's worth noting our body processes chemicals like Chlorine, potassium, and other such chemicals that in their raw form would kill you upon injesting. However in small doses or mixed in with other chemicals are mandatory for sustaining life.

 

[Cynical]

It's worth noting our body processes chemicals like Chlorine, potassium, and other such chemicals that in their raw form would kill you upon injesting. However in small doses or mixed in with other chemicals are mandatory for sustaining life.

As someone who has been vaccinated in childhood at my public school, the only after effect I ever suffered from a vaccination was a sore arm, and that went away after a few hours. As for the terror of "toxins" killing you, these assholes are crazy. The human body has enough combustible materials in it that together could explode with enough force to utterly wreck a medium sized home, so I'd say we have enough dangerous shit inside us to worry about without the fear of adding more.

Also, why are they just worried about vaccines having chemicals? Items like some forms of make up are derived from petroleum products, preservatives for food often use artificial ingredients, and most common necessities like batteries contain much deadlier materials a child could ingest than what goes into most vaccines.

With the exception of the last item, and that's only if a child is left unsupervised to chew or break open a battery, there are a lot of nastier chemicals in everyday items that are far higher in concentration and far easier to acquire than what goes into vaccines that could kill or injure you, so if these items are used by rational, informed people everyday and we aren't dropping like flies, I seriously doubt their panic attacks over what goes into vaccines are worth a damn in the long run.

 

[For The Internet]

Like so: You go to the tweet's page, copy the link, click the film icon, paste it there, et voila:
Wow, Jim Carrey? I knew he became unfunny, but apparently also incredibly stupid.

He used to be with Jenny McCarthy so it's not surprising that he has an anti-vax stance. Also he's mentally ill.

 

[IwegalBadnik]

Jim Carrey makes me laugh...that's a first.

 

[Chuggernaut]

The problem with this is that this doesn't only encapsulate individual rights.

Not vaccinating allows diseases to mutate because they fester in the human body. Which means potentially people who are already vaccinated can get sick because of them. This means not vaccinating risks an epidemic that affects other people. It's flat out irresponsible to not vaccinate.

Also this law is extremely liberal. For one it lets you wait until 7th grade. Autism manifests in very early childhood and as does ADHD. Even if the theory that vaccinating causes those things wasn't bullshit this gives you the easiest out possible.

Not vaccinating because of "muh rights" is the same as claiming you should be able to carry a gun in a school because of "muh rights", or that you should be allowed to build and sell houses that fall apart because of "muh rights". When you endanger other people due to your arrogance it ceases to become an issue of individual rights.

There's another aspect to it beyond preventing incubation and mutation, and that's the phenomenon of herd immunity. When 90% or so of a population is protected from a disease, they effectively protect the weakest members of that population by keeping it out of general circulation. Since the people who are too weak to be immunized tend to be very young, very old or very sick, they don't really get the chance to be exposed because those people tend to not spend very much time exposed to non-human disease vectors.

A kid with leukemia depends on the people around them to get vaccinated because they cannot. Deciding not to vaccinate a healthy child means that you've decided to deliberately endanger infants and cancer patients because of your totally unfounded beliefs.

 

[Do You Realize]

"Oh, well, I'm sorry for those other children and patients but I'm a strong mom and have to do what's best for my little Connor."

 

[Marvin]

I was arguing with my mother about this. We were discussing the morbidity rate of measles, and how it's "a mild childhood disease that gets serious when you're an adult". So we looked it up, and it turns out that a handful of kids, per thousand, die or get serious complications from the measles. Now, the conversation didn't get that far, but I was prepared for the "well, that's not a HUGE number..." argument.

To put these numbers in perspective, let's say we're talking about a carnival with rides. I would imagine a carnival in the right area might get a few hundred people per day, and it might be set up for two weeks. That's 300 people times 14 days, which is 4200 people.

If a handful of people per thousand got their arms ripped off because some carnie fucked up the safety rules, it'd be a huge news issue. If 20 people got their arms ripped off in a two week span, everyone would flip their shit. Everyone would be up in arms about shutting that carnival down. People might even be considering criminal charges.

And that's the seriousness of these diseases. Five people out of 1000 might not sound like a lot, but it's a hell of a lot when you're considering the seriousness of what you're risking (death and getting crippled).

 

[AnOminous]

And that's the seriousness of these diseases. Five people out of 1000 might not sound like a lot, but it's a hell of a lot when you're considering the seriousness of what you're risking (death and getting crippled).

Humans are terrible at judging risk. For instance, if you had a 1 in 1,000 chance of dying every day, that might sound good. But you'd be very unlikely to reach adulthood, seeing as 1,000 days isn't even 3 years.

 

[Watcher]

And that's the seriousness of these diseases. Five people out of 1000 might not sound like a lot, but it's a hell of a lot when you're considering the seriousness of what you're risking (death and getting crippled).

It's especially problematic considering it's so easy to prevent by just getting vaccinated.

It's like if you installed a safety rail in the park and it saved 5 people out of 1000. While that might not sound like a lot, that's still 5 lives you saved with such a ridiculously easy solution.

5 in 1000 is also an estimate based on how people are vaccinated on the current Measles virus. If the virus mutated because someone didn't vaccinate, it could suddenly affect people who are already vaccinated. Meaning that number would skyrocket because of one of those 5.

 

[Watcher]

Humans are terrible at judging risk. For instance, if you had a 1 in 1,000 chance of dying every day, that might sound good. But you'd be very unlikely to reach adulthood, seeing as 1,000 days isn't even 3 years.

One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

 

[Holdek]

Humans are terrible at judging risk. For instance, if you had a 1 in 1,000 chance of dying every day, that might sound good. But you'd be very unlikely to reach adulthood, seeing as 1,000 days isn't even 3 years.

Humans are evolved to worry about a saber-toothed tiger jumping out of the bushes and eating us this afternoon, not something that might kill us years down the line. Ain't nobody got time for that!

 

[Chuggernaut]

http://www.king5.com/story/news/health/2015/07/02/clallam-county-measles-death/29622875/

A woman died of the measles here in Washington today. She was on medication that suppressed her immune response, which means that her vaccinations weren't going to protect her. Guess how she got exposed in the first place? A carrier in a waiting room.

This is why vaccination is important. If the carrier had been vaccinated, this woman would be alive today.