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I'd... really love to hear the argument that it's supporting slavery. Hell, the Independents aren't even a really good analog for the Confederacy, except that they were secessionists.
To be fair I was barely able to make it through the pilot because the protagonists were so annoying and the dialogue was so bad (and the retarded setting clashed with the gritty tone and a million other things that bugged me), but they basically screamed Lost Cause and Southern grievance to me and CSA stuff is a common theme in the Western genre. Maybe they weren't intended to romanticize the CSA (I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, the show was awful enough if that wasn't the intent), but just for the sake of argument let's say that they are.

Downplaying the importance of slavery to the CSA has long been a critical part of CSA apologetics, even during the Civil War, even by people who were personally invested in the maintenance of The Peculiar Institution and for SJWs (or the SJW adjacent like me) pretending that the Confederates weren't fighting to keep a race of people enslaved is not very different than defending their right to keep a race of people enslaved because, frankly, it depends on willful ignorance of slavery in the CSA (analogous to Holocaust deniers).

Of course, there are different degrees of downplaying slavery in the CSA, on the one end of the scale you have the people insisting that (despite the actual text of most of the declarations of secession) slavery was not a major reason for the Civil War and on the other end you have people who just think that the antebellum South was interesting and they'd prefer to not think about slavery since there's nothing that can be done about it now (ignoring the debate on reparations).
 
To be fair I was barely able to make it through the pilot because the protagonists were so annoying and the dialogue was so bad (and the retarded setting clashed with the gritty tone and a million other things that bugged me), but they basically screamed Lost Cause and Southern grievance to me and CSA stuff is a common theme in the Western genre. Maybe they weren't intended to romanticize the CSA (I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, the show was awful enough if that wasn't the intent), but just for the sake of argument let's say that they are.

Downplaying the importance of slavery to the CSA has long been a critical part of CSA apologetics, even during the Civil War, even by people who were personally invested in the maintenance of The Peculiar Institution and for SJWs (or the SJW adjacent like me) pretending that the Confederates weren't fighting to keep a race of people enslaved is not very different than defending their right to keep a race of people enslaved because, frankly, it depends on willful ignorance of slavery in the CSA (analogous to Holocaust deniers).

Of course, there are different degrees of downplaying slavery in the CSA, on the one end of the scale you have the people insisting that (despite the actual text of most of the declarations of secession) slavery was not a major reason for the Civil War and on the other end you have people who just think that the antebellum South was interesting and they'd prefer to not think about slavery since there's nothing that can be done about it now (ignoring the debate on reparations).

This is off topic for this thread, but...

Yeah, no. Despite some surface level similarities ("Lost cause" secessionists, basically), there's almost nothing similar between the CSA and the Independents, or the Union and the Alliance (Despite the name, in that case). It's a very surface-level thing.

And in any event, that's still not a compelling argument that having a non-slave-holding CSA analog is tantamount to supporting slavery. If you remove the defining features of a bad thing and keep only the aesthetics... Well. Let's look another example. The Paul Verhoeven Starship Troopers movie. He went out of his way to try to make his presentation of the Terran Federation as explicit a Nazi analog as he could. Probably no more blunt a hammer to be found than Oberfuhrer Doogie Howser. But... It wasn't. All of the sins that make the Nazis the Nazis were missing, and the new ones they had were a different kettle of fish entirely. So while one could have a reasonable argument about the pros and cons of the Terran Federation, trying to say that someone who thinks they were a good government is implicitly pro-Nazi falls flat.

Or to use a different analogy, and one relevant to RPG.net? Back a few years ago - and lord knows, this could have changed since then - the RPG.net mods had to explicitly tell some people that people who cosplayed as Imperials from Star Wars, or played video games where you played Imperial characters, or liked Imperial characters in the movies, or whatever, weren't equivalent to Nazi supporters.

Actually I suspect that discussion would go a different direction, now. Back then the discussion cropped up surrounding the release of that pretty awesome TIE Fighter short some fan did, and some of the usual crowd started hand-wringing over how people who liked things like that bothered them.
 
Yeah, no. Despite some surface level similarities ("Lost cause" secessionists, basically), there's almost nothing similar between the CSA and the Independents, or the Union and the Alliance (Despite the name, in that case). It's a very surface-level thing.
Shallow, kind of like RPGnet's moderators, right?

And in any event, that's still not a compelling argument that having a non-slave-holding CSA analog is tantamount to supporting slavery. If you remove the defining features of a bad thing and keep only the aesthetics... Well. Let's look another example. The Paul Verhoeven Starship Troopers movie. He went out of his way to try to make his presentation of the Terran Federation as explicit a Nazi analog as he could. Probably no more blunt a hammer to be found than Oberfuhrer Doogie Howser. But... It wasn't. All of the sins that make the Nazis the Nazis were missing, and the new ones they had were a different kettle of fish entirely. So while one could have a reasonable argument about the pros and cons of the Terran Federation, trying to say that someone who thinks they were a good government is implicitly pro-Nazi falls flat.
Verhoeven's treatment of Starship Troopers is one more example of why Hollywood should be burned to the ground and the earth salted. Supposedly, the script originally wasn't even an adaptation of Heinlein's book; it started out as a quasi-original story called 'Bug Hunt'. Then they bolted the Heinlein name and book title onto it, and modified it to add minor bits from the book.

(Coed showers, live fire exercises with no protection for onlookers, WW1/WW2-esque tactics... it was clear Verhoeven and the script writers were phoning it in.)

EDIT: Getting back on topic:

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I do not get this whole 'the Browncoats are Confederate expies' thing. I really really do not, and I am sorely tempted to create an account just to fucking ask. There is nothing in the 'Verse that suggests they are supposed to be, outside of the whole 'secession' thing. Which, you know, could also be applied to the American colonies circa 1776. Imagine if the U.S. had lost the war for independence; might look a lot like the dynamic for Firefly/Serenity.
 
I do not get this whole 'the Browncoats are Confederate expies' thing. I really really do not, and I am sorely tempted to create an account just to fucking ask. There is nothing in the 'Verse that suggests they are supposed to be, outside of the whole 'secession' thing. Which, you know, could also be applied to the American colonies circa 1776. Imagine if the U.S. had lost the war for independence; might look a lot like the dynamic for Firefly/Serenity.
Only thing I can think of is early in The Train Job when Mal says that "maybe we'll rise again". Of course, that happens just after Mal gets into a fight resulting from him picking a slave-trader's pocket.

But this is RPGnet, where wrong opinions are not tolerated.
 
Only thing I can think of is early in The Train Job when Mal says that "maybe we'll rise again". Of course, that happens just after Mal gets into a fight resulting from him picking a slave-trader's pocket.

But this is RPGnet, where wrong opinions are not tolerated.
If I didn't think it'd result in a digital instagibbing, I'd walk in and state, 'You think this? Fine. Explain how. Show your work.'

But, like you said, wrongthink is doubleplusungood and will be punished by exiling into the outer darkness (or at least to a forum run by people who at least commute to reality).
 
I do not get this whole 'the Browncoats are Confederate expies' thing. I really really do not, and I am sorely tempted to create an account just to fucking ask. There is nothing in the 'Verse that suggests they are supposed to be, outside of the whole 'secession' thing. Which, you know, could also be applied to the American colonies circa 1776. Imagine if the U.S. had lost the war for independence; might look a lot like the dynamic for Firefly/Serenity.
It's drawn from an outside story source. I think a commentary on one of the episodes.

But as you and others have pointed out, the end results do not have it in the text.
 
All it takes it one unique detail. I got Cessna because he posted a video of his son fencing and included his son's name and the city they fenced in. You'd be surprised what people share when they think they're in a safe space. Practice good infosec, people.
Relevant reading. IIRC Panopticlick's conclusion was that it takes only about 9-11 bits of information to personally identify someone and or explode a building.
 
It's drawn from an outside story source. I think a commentary on one of the episodes.

But as you and others have pointed out, the end results do not have it in the text.
Joss Whedon read The Killer Angels and wanted to emulate the old westerns that had the ex-Confederate soldier as a main character. That's it. That's the Confederacy connection. If Firefly is Lost Cause apologia then so is For a Few Dollars More or John Carter of Mars or The Searchers.
 
I do not get this whole 'the Browncoats are Confederate expies' thing. I really really do not, and I am sorely tempted to create an account just to fucking ask. There is nothing in the 'Verse that suggests they are supposed to be, outside of the whole 'secession' thing. Which, you know, could also be applied to the American colonies circa 1776. Imagine if the U.S. had lost the war for independence; might look a lot like the dynamic for Firefly/Serenity.
I got the impression that the Browncoats were sorta like the Southerners mixed with elements of the West but without the baggage of slavery or racism. It’s not really apologetics since it’s a different time/setting and the motives for the war were different.

Personally, I’d argue that the American Civil War was a war of economies, one of which was slave based and the other that wasn’t. The two economic systems were incompatible and eventually one would come out on top. I am glad that the north won the war, but it was still war meaning it was horrific. Plus the value of slaves in the south was so great that it surpassed the entire industry of the north and so if that tanked it’d send their entire economy into a tailspin. So I can have pity for the common southerner.

Imo one of the reasons the southern army dissolved is that the average southerner was no longer willing to die for another mans slaves. I do feel pity for the common soldier of the south. They were more free than slaves but southern society was more authoritarian and many were afraid of losing the freedom they did have... and something a lot of people may gloss over or forget is that a fair number of them had some slave ancestors, so a lot of what they did was out of fear/self-preservation. That being said I have no pity for the planter class and they all should’ve been hung.
 
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Joss Whedon read The Killer Angels and wanted to emulate the old westerns that had the ex-Confederate soldier as a main character. That's it. That's the Confederacy connection. If Firefly is Lost Cause apologia then so is For a Few Dollars More or John Carter of Mars or The Searchers.
Thank you. I was unable to check my copies of references to look up the source.

What amuses me about arguments like @Surfin Terf made is the question of why is it slavery that's so entangled with the CSA? There was more to the South at that time than slavery. Yet we also see those elements missing in something like firefly as well. There is religion but not like any from that time. Dress, manners, even sports and hobbies are all missing from it. Why is it slavery who's absence proves something and not the many, many other absences?

Theory of the mind, people. Just because you're obsessed with something doesn't mean other folks are.
 
The site's been trending downwards for a long time now, but it went into freefall with Trump rising. Really it's just mirroring similar trends in social media, the slow corruption over Obama's second term and then going completely batshit in 2016.

It's certainly hit them hard. As of right now, they have 217 members online and 921 guests browsing. Compared to us, we have 906 members browsing and 2,794 guests. Here's to them modding their way to complete irrelevance.
 
If Firefly is Lost Cause apologia then so is For a Few Dollars More or John Carter of Mars or The Searchers.
Great! More things for them to cancel! I'm sure they'd love a list of 'things white men like' to get to call evil, and for any Westerns or things based on Westerns they'd be delighted to say how terrible they all are because that's squarely in the demographic.
 
Joss Whedon read The Killer Angels and wanted to emulate the old westerns that had the ex-Confederate soldier as a main character. That's it. That's the Confederacy connection. If Firefly is Lost Cause apologia then so is For a Few Dollars More or John Carter of Mars or The Searchers.
You forgot the two best ever, True Grit and The Outlaw Josey Wales.

(not meaning to be a nitpicky dick, I just really like The Outlaw Josey Wales)
 
Full-on westerns are of course well within the verboten category, racism towards indians and whatnot. They were bad even before the whole 'colonialism' bullshit started seeping in on the edges. Plus probably anti-black racism and misogyny too, depending on the individual movie.
It's more anti-Mexican when it comes to Westerns. Blacks rarely factor into the most famous ones. El Indio and El Bandito are major archetypes that modern liberals hate, and almost every good Western had one of the two.
 
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