Harry Potter and why its world building is so boring? - Avada Kedavra vs M16

[Plank]

TL;DR, HP's world-building is like a pretty ship-in-a-bottle: it's pretty when you look at it on a shelf and it's got some very ornate detail work, but if you throw it into the real ocean it's not going to float, and the people who make good ships-in-bottles tend not to be good at making real ships.

That is a good analogy.

Not disagreeing, but I would characterize her poor world building comes from her story telling crutch of constantly introducing new people, monsters, or spells and then moving on to the next. You do not develop a coherent world when you do too much of that. It is very lazy writing but is perfectly fine for a young audience who isn't going to over think how all these parts that have been thrown at them fit(or don't fit) together.

I have little interest and sympathy for Rowling after humiliating herself and trashing her work in a desperate attempt to appease the social justice mob and now getting unpersoned despite that pathetic groveling.

But, I feel like Rowling should rewrite the entire Potter saga for a more mature audience. Make the world building better, drop the silly and story tarnishing social justice pandering, and up the prose for adults. Don't worry about taking anything other than the main characters and other major elements from the children's books. Drop all the one off or 'oh look something shiny and new' elements. Adults don't need that or want that.

I without any sense of sarcasm would be very interested in something like that. And I would assume there are millions of adults who grew up on Harry Potter who would love a completely new version of their beloved characters. And I assume not more than a rounding error of those adult Potter fans give a shit about the trans crap.

 

[Xarpho]

I think the core problem is that Rowling wrote herself into a corner. Ardent Potter fans claim that the story core was written years before and only in 2007 was the final book to wrap everything up.

But that's not true, the first book introduced the idea of a whole wizard world that existed behind closed doors and magic corridors, like Platform 9 3/4 and Diagon Alley, then a whole haunted-house/castle style boarding school. Because Rowling isn't a great writer, several plot holes started opening up, and the fans of the series latched onto those plot holes as some sort of grand crafted mystery, and Rowling just went along with it. At some point, the series was also retconned to take place in the late 1980s/early 1990s (which doesn't make sense as Dudley is stated to have gotten a PlayStation and threw it out the window), and an inability to mesh the "wizard world" with the "real world" led to all sorts of bullshit like "squibs" and a whole world of really stupid wizard subculture.

I know there's a lot to complain about, like making Snape a major character and if he actually WAS evil or not (which should've been resolved in the first book, where despite being an asshole he helped save Harry's ass from the actual bad guy), and the whole concept of a corrupt and ineffective bureaucracy that Harry wants to join and work with but gives him nothing but shit the entire series, but we already have a whole thread for that.

 

[Naamaleipuri]

I think the core problem is that Rowling wrote herself into a corner. Ardent Potter fans claim that the story core was written years before and only in 2007 was the final book to wrap everything up.

But that's not true, the first book introduced the idea of a whole wizard world that existed behind closed doors and magic corridors, like Platform 9 3/4 and Diagon Alley, then a whole haunted-house/castle style boarding school. Because Rowling isn't a great writer, several plot holes started opening up, and the fans of the series latched onto those plot holes as some sort of grand crafted mystery, and Rowling just went along with it. At some point, the series was also retconned to take place in the late 1980s/early 1990s (which doesn't make sense as Dudley is stated to have gotten a PlayStation and threw it out the window), and an inability to mesh the "wizard world" with the "real world" led to all sorts of bullshit like "squibs" and a whole world of really stupid wizard subculture.

I know there's a lot to complain about, like making Snape a major character and if he actually WAS evil or not (which should've been resolved in the first book, where despite being an asshole he helped save Harry's ass from the actual bad guy), and the whole concept of a corrupt and ineffective bureaucracy that Harry wants to join and work with but gives him nothing but shit the entire series, but we already have a whole thread for that.

Out of all the plot holes, Marauder's Map has to be my favorite.
Why didn't Fred and George never question why their little brother slept in the same bed, with another boy called Peter Pettigrew, for years?

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

I'd heard a theory that the reason Harry Potter was popular was because it was a managerialist fantasy, basically giving apple-polishing nerds moral authority to rule the world. Might explain why it's so popular with SJWs. Personally, I think the My Little Pony series has better worldbuilding, and that was intended for even younger audiences...

Lewis did not plan the Narnia series out at all. They were written in a different order than they are intended to be read or were supposed to happen. "The Magician's Nephew" was written second-to-last and Lewis believed it was best to read them it first and all of them in in-universe chronological order. In his own account of starting the series, he was already writing "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" before he suddenly got the idea to put Aslan into it. Each book he wrote he thought would be the last in the series. He certainly didn't plan an end before he got there: it's literally "rocks fall, everyone dies, they go to heaven" in his series about the emotional maturation of children.

Lewis was wrong. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is a far better introduction to the Narnia series than The Magician's Nephew. The discovery of the Wardrobe and the mystery of what lies within is what sucks people into the story. The audience learns about the background and history of Narnia at the same time the characters do and the introduction of Lion Jesus Aslan is properly built up to so it becomes something magical when you finally see Him. Knowing about Narnia and its characters before reading TLTWATW diminishes the effect of the mystery and as soon as you see the kids first appear, you're just marking time until they get transported to Narnia. Some things are better if they're presented in the order they were written, not in the order that they happen.

Same thing applies if you're watching the Star Wars movie series for the first time, -you must start with Episode 4 - It sets up everything you need to know about the Jedi and how the Force works and it keeps the central mystery of Luke's parentage a secret until it's dramatically revealed to him (and the audience) in Episode 5. Which of course, changes the entire nature of the story from an action serial pastiche about a pulp hero getting revenge on a villain, to a more serious story about a hero learning he has a secret connection to the villain (who may be redeemable.) The story also works better if you don't know who Yoda is when Luke first goes to visit him. The whole point of Yoda's character is to teach Luke the important lesson about how Force Users don't need to be big, tough guys, - the most powerful ones could be small, puny-looking little old men. It's a standard plot cliche ripped from Japanese martial arts movies - the small, wizened guy turns out to be the unlikely badass who can teach the hero everything he needs to know. But if you've already seen Episodes 1-3, then you already know that Yoda is a powerful Force user and the impact of that lesson is diminished somewhat, because only Luke is learning it in that scene, not you. Also, Episodes 1-3 suck donkey taint, and not just because the RLM guys said it did....

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Out of all the plot holes, Marauder's Map has to be my favorite.
Why didn't Fred and George never question why their little brother slept in the same bed, with another boy called Peter Pettigrew, for years?

Maybe they thought it was just an in-joke where the guys who made the map back in the day would be like "look at the map, it shows you're sleeping with Peter Pettigrew lol you're a fag" and Fred and George either didn't know who he was or thought it was a different guy than the one who was allegedly murdered by Sirius Black.

 

[Salt Water Taffy]

I'm mildly interested, mostly because I wonder if I can play as a pureblood supremacist character, shitting on them muggles and mudbloods.

Speaking of, one of the most damning flaws of the classic HP books/movies is their inability to make us care about Muggles - when the very crux of the overarching conflict of the series relies on us believing that Muggles have a right to live. The only Muggles of any real importance in all the main books are the Dursleys, the spiteful step-family so jealous of Harry's magic they abuse him on the regular, and Argus Filch (technically a squib but same difference) the mean groundskeeper who loves to cramp down on Harry and co.'s fun. There's also Hermione's parents, who are said to be nice but we know so little about them we don't even know their names, and the more pressing concern regarding them is the discrimination Hermione receives for being a mudblood. Despite this, Voldemort and co. come flying in around the middle of the series or so and their hatred of Muggles is stated to be irredeemably evil a position. Really, the only Muggle the readers care about is the reader themselves, it's relying on the fact that the villains are being discriminatory against us more so than any character of note. Voldie's hatred of mudbloods is shown to be a lot more irrational - the characterization makes it clear that purebloods, mudbloods, and any mixture inbetween have no inherent magical leg-up on any of the others. Muggles though, there's no way you can slice it without having them be an inferior species. Combine the mediocrity and inferiority of Muggles with the fact that none of them are likable on a personal level, and it's really no surprise that a decent amount of fans (certainly more than JKR would like) actively root for the Death Eaters, 'cause ya gotta make way for the homo superiors, and no amount of comparing them to Nazis will ever help. Yeah, some of the more recent stuff have tried to redeem the Muggle race - the Fantastic Beasts movies feature a sympathetic Muggle as a lead character, and Harry and Dudley are shown to have buried the hatchet by the time of Cursed Child, but it's kinda too little too late (not to mention they take way more steps backward than they do forward so who even cares. We all know this is the real 8th book).

 

[CreamyHerman’s]

My best guess would be the mystery of it

I mean they are mystery books through and through, up until book 6 I would say. The movies do a better job with the world though.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

Speaking of, one of the most damning flaws of the classic HP books/movies is their inability to make us care about Muggles - when the very crux of the overarching conflict of the series relies on us believing that Muggles have a right to live. The only Muggles of any real importance in all the main books are the Dursleys, the spiteful step-family so jealous of Harry's magic they abuse him on the regular, and Argus Filch (technically a squib but same difference) the mean groundskeeper who loves to cramp down on Harry and co.'s fun. There's also Hermione's parents, who are said to be nice but we know so little about them we don't even know their names, and the more pressing concern regarding them is the discrimination Hermione receives for being a mudblood. Despite this, Voldemort and co. come flying in around the middle of the series or so and their hatred of Muggles is stated to be irredeemably evil a position. Really, the only Muggle the readers care about is the reader themselves, it's relying on the fact that the villains are being discriminatory against us more so than any character of note. Voldie's hatred of mudbloods is shown to be a lot more irrational - the characterization makes it clear that purebloods, mudbloods, and any mixture inbetween have no inherent magical leg-up on any of the others. Muggles though, there's no way you can slice it without having them be an inferior species. Combine the mediocrity and inferiority of Muggles with the fact that none of them are likable on a personal level, and it's really no surprise that a decent amount of fans (certainly more than JKR would like) actively root for the Death Eaters, 'cause ya gotta make way for the homo superiors, and no amount of comparing them to Nazis will ever help. Yeah, some of the more recent stuff have tried to redeem the Muggle race - the Fantastic Beasts movies feature a sympathetic Muggle as a lead character, and Harry and Dudley are shown to have buried the hatchet by the time of Cursed Child, but it's kinda too little too late (not to mention they take way more steps backward than they do forward so who even cares. We all know this is the real 8th book).

View attachment 1864551

#Grindewald (grindelvald? Grinderwall? Whatever the name of the guy who dumbledore banged) did nothing wrong. I haven’t read the play but I did see both fantastic beast movies. I know he’s supposed to be shown as gay Wizard Hitler but he’s trying to stop WWII. You know the war where millions of people died and a bunch of Brits were killed by bombs. Like wouldn’t it be in the interest of the wizards to not let London get bombed? We know a bunch of muggles without firearms could persecute them (somehow) so another world war with the bombing of London would likely kill some wizards too. Considering all the horror another world war brings, a decent person with magic should do something to try to stop it. It brings up other questions too: Did they participate in WWII? Like did they volunteer to prevent the Germans from invading the UK? Were there wizards working with Hitler? Was Hitler a Wizard? Did they not care about the Germans throwing dissidents, Jews, the disabled, and possibly wizards into labor/death camps? Or were they like ‘lol sounds like a muggle problem. Best we just let them figure it out in the meantime.’

He’s also standing up against multiple surveillance states including some with draconian laws. Muggle marriage was illegal apparently but what about gay marriage? I find it unlikely that families obsessed with pure bloodlines would be ok with Wizards getting it on. The books/show showed that the Wizards lagged behind technologically, so shouldn’t they also be more conservative socially? What about the US wizarding world? Or did no one care about him and Dumbledore? Something I always found confusing too was the Wizarding government because it seemed to me that it was an extension of the muggle one, at least in the UK. Did Wizards vote in general elections? Where they even citizens? What laws applied to Wizards? Another aspect that seemed puzzling was how little Wizards knew of muggles, you’d think they’d have to know some basics in order to blend in.

But, I feel like Rowling should rewrite the entire Potter saga for a more mature audience. Make the world building better, drop the silly and story tarnishing social justice pandering, and up the prose for adults. Don't worry about taking anything other than the main characters and other major elements from the children's books. Drop all the one off or 'oh look something shiny and new' elements. Adults don't need that or want that.

The Dresden Files are superior as an urban fantasy to Harry Potter.

 

[Naamaleipuri]

#Grindewald (grindelvald? Grinderwall? Whatever the name of the guy who dumbledore banged) did nothing wrong. I haven’t read the play but I did see both fantastic beast movies. I know he’s supposed to be shown as gay Wizard Hitler but he’s trying to stop WWII. You know the war where millions of people died and where a bunch of Brits were killed by bombs. Like wouldn’t it be in the interest of the wizards to not let London get bombed? We know a bunch of muggles without firearms could persecute them (somehow) so another world war with the bombing of London would likely kill some wizards too. Considering all the horror another world war brings, a decent person with magic should do something to try to stop it. It brings up other questions too: Did they participate in WWII? Like did they volunteer to prevent the Germans from invading the UK? Were there wizards working with Hitler? Was Hitler a Wizard? Did they not care about the Germans throwing dissidents, Jews, the disabled, and possibly wizards into labor/death camps? Or were they like ‘lol sounds like a muggle problem. Best we just let them figure it out in the meantime.’

He’s also standing up against multiple surveillance states including some with draconian laws. Muggle marriage was illegal apparently but what about gay marriage? I find it unlikely that families obsessed with pure bloodlines would be ok with Wizards getting it on. The books/show showed that the Wizards lagged behind technologically, so shouldn’t they also be more conservative socially? What about the US wizarding world? Or did no one care about him and Dumbledore? Something I always found confusing too was the Wizarding government because it seemed to me that it was an extension of the muggle one, at least in the UK. Did Wizards vote in general elections? Where they even citizens? What laws applied to Wizards? Another aspect that seemed puzzling was how little Wizards knew of muggles, you’d think they’d have to know some basics in order to blend in.


The Dresden Files are superior as an urban fantasy to Harry Potter.

I think the magic faction is hiding because they know that a single redneck with a rifle can kill scores of wizards before they can even mutter avada-

 

[GrausamkeitKennedy9]

I haven't ever read a Harry Potter book in my life and no one can make me read one

 

[Xarpho]

Speaking of, one of the most damning flaws of the classic HP books/movies is their inability to make us care about Muggles - when the very crux of the overarching conflict of the series relies on us believing that Muggles have a right to live. The only Muggles of any real importance in all the main books are the Dursleys, the spiteful step-family so jealous of Harry's magic they abuse him on the regular, and Argus Filch (technically a squib but same difference) the mean groundskeeper who loves to cramp down on Harry and co.'s fun. There's also Hermione's parents, who are said to be nice but we know so little about them we don't even know their names, and the more pressing concern regarding them is the discrimination Hermione receives for being a mudblood. Despite this, Voldemort and co. come flying in around the middle of the series or so and their hatred of Muggles is stated to be irredeemably evil a position. Really, the only Muggle the readers care about is the reader themselves, it's relying on the fact that the villains are being discriminatory against us more so than any character of note. Voldie's hatred of mudbloods is shown to be a lot more irrational - the characterization makes it clear that purebloods, mudbloods, and any mixture inbetween have no inherent magical leg-up on any of the others. Muggles though, there's no way you can slice it without having them be an inferior species. Combine the mediocrity and inferiority of Muggles with the fact that none of them are likable on a personal level, and it's really no surprise that a decent amount of fans (certainly more than JKR would like) actively root for the Death Eaters, 'cause ya gotta make way for the homo superiors, and no amount of comparing them to Nazis will ever help. Yeah, some of the more recent stuff have tried to redeem the Muggle race - the Fantastic Beasts movies feature a sympathetic Muggle as a lead character, and Harry and Dudley are shown to have buried the hatchet by the time of Cursed Child, but it's kinda too little too late (not to mention they take way more steps backward than they do forward so who even cares. We all know this is the real 8th book).

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I know this idea has been repeated many times, but the whole crux of the story that Voldemort is the wizard equivalent of Hitler yet Harry and his pals (and by extension, the wizard race) still perceive non-wizards as inferior and use slurs on the regular, is jarring.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

I think the magic faction is hiding because they know that a single redneck with a rifle can kill scores of wizards before they can even mutter avada-

You’d think they’d use or enchant firearms. Like why not embed a wand into a pistol or rifle? Hagrid did it with an umbrella. Or just use magic to make a better gun. It would be fitting for the Wizards that care about “keeping everything pure” only to get mowed down by magically enhanced firearms.

 

[TurkishOreo]

You’d think they’d use or enchant firearms. Like why not embed a wand into a pistol or rifle? Hagrid did it with an umbrella. Or just use magic to make a better gun. It would be fitting for the Wizards that care about “keeping everything pure” only to get mowed down by magically enhanced firearms.

Probably since none have ever thought to keep the Avada setting as the standard wand swinging.

Like do the Leviosa motion once and your wand will always just levitate shit instead of having to spell&motion it again.

Maybe they thought it was just an in-joke where the guys who made the map back in the day would be like "look at the map, it shows you're sleeping with Peter Pettigrew lol you're a fag" and Fred and George either didn't know who he was or thought it was a different guy than the one who was allegedly murdered by Sirius Black.

Animagus form is probably not coded into the map.

Did the map ever show random animals or just people?

It would also make the animagus registration pointless since Harry could've just looked at the map for that journalist to know how she gets the info.

 

[Xarpho]

Animagus form is probably not coded into the map.

Did the map ever show random animals or just people?

It would also make the animagus registration pointless since Harry could've just looked at the map for that journalist to know how she gets the info.

I thought (and maybe it was just the movie) that it's how they got interested in Peter Pettigrew in the first place, as the map recorded where he was, but they didn't actually see anyone there because he was Scabbers the rat during the time.

 

[Judge Holden]

Gonna drop into this thread to concur with the general sentiments.

Rowling was pretty good at introducing/bringing up interesting sounding or aesthetically pleasing concepts to her world, but really fucking bad at actually thinking through the implications such shit would have on the worldbuilding and/or in integrating said shit into the story in a cohesive and consistent way.

Thus it works in terms of shallow entertainment for people who are not trying to think too hard about it, but the moment you scratch at the logic it all unravels like a three piece suit sewn together by a blind chimp.

 

[Night Terror]

WHAT HOGWARTS HOUSE ARE YOU? QUIZ
QUESTION 1
theres a problem! how do you solve it?
a) bravely
b) smartly
c) like a snake
d) by giving up and eating a pizza instead

 

[Naamaleipuri]

You’d think they’d use or enchant firearms. Like why not embed a wand into a pistol or rifle? Hagrid did it with an umbrella. Or just use magic to make a better gun. It would be fitting for the Wizards that care about “keeping everything pure” only to get mowed down by magically enhanced firearms.

Considering how dumb the common wizard is, they don't have the know how.
Remember that Rowling established that the magically inclined are bad at maths and thinking outside the box (they can't comprehend first grader riddles). Tbh I'm impressed that wizards and witches have the muscle mass to even walk since they do almost everything with magic.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

Considering how dumb the common wizard is, they don't have the know how.
Remember that Rowling established that the magically inclined are bad at maths and thinking outside the box (they can't comprehend first grader riddles). Tbh I'm impressed that wizards and witches have the muscle mass to even walk since they do almost everything with magic.

I didn’t know that they naturally sucked at math in universe.... I thought they just didn’t bother to learn for some reason..

 

[Night Terror]

Considering how dumb the common wizard is, they don't have the know how.
Remember that Rowling established that the magically inclined are bad at maths and thinking outside the box (they can't comprehend first grader riddles). Tbh I'm impressed that wizards and witches have the muscle mass to even walk since they do almost everything with magic.

the average wizard has no concept of guns, im fairly certain that they were described as 'a kind of metal wand that muggles use to kill each other' at one point in the books

 

[draggs]

From all the stories about her life before she hit it big, she did everything regarding writing Harry Potter in a very disorganized way and never really got away from that after she hit it big. That lends itself to mile wide inch deep and make it up as you go along writing

She is a living example of persistence is the biggest factor in success, her other qualities are average at best but she's got persistence