Avatar: The Last Airbender / The Legend of Korra

Avatar: Best animated series or best animated series ever?


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dropping in to point out - the age change leak was from a completely unverified source (the literally who? illuminerdi) and should be taken with an entire salt lick. until the actual cast list gets announced, I'm holding my breath. this seems like super transparent clickbait to me.
 
Hold the phone-- his primary reasons for liking Katara have to do with her being his very first contact in a foreign world where all his people were wiped from the face of the earth, and being supportive on top of that.

...and, yeah, because she's pretty, I guess.
Oh yeah, that’s why when it came to The Guru scene - the part that should’ve been the culmination of everything they’ve been through, that’s meant to really hammer home the weight of the importance going into his decision, how one person supposedly means so much to him that he’d be willing to trade phenomenal cosmic power to keep her - the imagery they use to portray this is not the "we’re your family now" scene, not all those times Katara pulled him out of the Avatar State, not their time in the desert where he was total prick to her the entire time and she treated him with more patience and understanding than most people would’ve realistically allotted him in that kind of life-or-death scenario (which he never acknowledges afterwards), not even some of her own character moments that didn’t directly involve Aang like the Pakku fight or the earthbender prison break to maybe show he admires her outside of the things that benefit him, but the animu sparkle beauty pan from the fortune cookie episode, right? To showcase all those personality traits he‘s interested in?

Truly, the bedrock of a romance for the ages.

Also, from I’ve gathered from talking to female fans in real life, even a lot of the Kataang shippers, the whole "using a girlfriend as a therapist/surrogate/coping mechanism for the lost of an entire civilization" thing isn’t considered one of the positives; to them it sounds emotionally daunting and unhealthy, or at best an internal conflict to be overcome. Codependency doesn’t exactly get the blood rushing south.
Her interest had to do with the fact that he was the ray of hope she had been hoping for her entire life, having been born into a war that claimed her mother's life, robbed her of her father, and ultimately decimated her society. Aside from that, Aang did plenty of comparatively trifling things for her, on top of doing the whole listening and empathizing/taking action thing you were talking about earlier.

...and, yeah, because he's God incarnate or something, I guess.
I mean, Katara liking him because of what represents is still only liking him based on what he is rather than who he is, and the most common piece of romantic advice Aang is given is that being the Avatar means he can have any girl he wants; there’s even a moment where someone tells him that Katara will simply "come around" because he‘s the Avatar, so how could she say no to him? Emphasizing that he’s a god incarnate, as though that should be a factor, kinda proves my point in that regard. That’s the sort of approach to romance most writers would attribute to antagonists like Gaston, not the story’s paragon of righteousness.

And thing is, other aspects of the the show often contradict the idea that idea. Two of the major themes in the story is that the definition of inner strength is giving yourself hope when nothing else in the world will, and that "destiny" is determined not by belief but through actions driven by self-discovery. This actually a common thing in Katara’s own arc, since she’s often the one motivating Aang and others rather than Aang giving her motivation, and more often than not the story rewards Katara for having faith in herself and/or her fellow man than she is for having faith in Aang specifically. There’s even several instances where it’s shown that The Avatar being back isn’t enough to motivate people to action like in Imprisoned, or Aang is serving as an obstacle conflicting with her hope like in The Desert, The Serpent’s Pass, The Awakening, or arguably even the finale. Hell, one of the most interesting parts of the finale’s subplot is that when history has seemingly repeated itself with Aang having vanished when he’s needed the most, the conclusion the others come to is that they can’t worry about whatever Aang’s doing, and instead have to focus on what they can do for themselves because determining the fate of the world will come down to everyone doing their part rather than the actions of one person - you can even see this at work looking at the previous finales where majority of the time the pivotal turning points in battle are often brought about by people other than Aang like Yue’s sacrifice or Zuko‘s joining the fray in the catacombs. I’d even argue the contradiction can be summed up in the fortune cookie episode since the majority if it is about accepting instances where your love/crush is unrequited (complete with direct parallels between the girl crushing on Aang and how Aang treats Katara) and that you shouldn’t put so much stock into prophecies or what others tell you what your destiny should be (it’s even a running gag throughout that Katara is doing exactly this to the point she’s doing things she doesn't want to) only to swerve hard at the last second to go "oh look this vague description arbitrarily matches Aang, so Aunt Woo was actually right all along!" I feel like if your main couple‘s getting together has to against the grain of the message of your own show, then something has gone wrong.

I’d also disagree that listening is a major aspect of Katara and Aang’s dynamic. Katara tends to talk about her mother a lot, but there’s a notable difference in how she talks about it with Aang, where the focus is usually in making him feel better rather than helping her sort out her problems, compared to how she talks about it with every other character like Sokka, Haru, Zuko, and her dad (which funnily enough comes about specifically because Aang ditching her causes her to spiral). The closest is maybe The Southern Raiders, but there Aang scenes only leave her frustrated and this conflict doesn’t get resolved by the end since they never end up seeing eye-to-eye. It paints a picture where Katara is usually Aang’s confidant, but Aang is never one for her.
 
Oh yeah, that’s why when it came to The Guru scene - the part that should’ve been the culmination of everything they’ve been through, that’s meant to really hammer home the weight of the importance going into his decision, how one person supposedly means so much to him that he’d be willing to trade phenomenal cosmic power to keep her - the imagery they use to portray this is not the "we’re your family now" scene, not all those times Katara pulled him out of the Avatar State, not their time in the desert where he was total prick to her the entire time and she treated him with more patience and understanding than most people would’ve realistically allotted him in that kind of life-or-death scenario (which he never acknowledges afterwards), not even some of her own character moments that didn’t directly involve Aang like the Pakku fight or the earthbender prison break to maybe show he admires her outside of the things that benefit him, but the animu sparkle beauty pan from the fortune cookie episode, right?
I can't recall which "The Guru" scene you're referring to, but I do recall that the first image of his POV post-iceberg being used in Pathik's explanation of how the love of his people didn't disappear from the world. I'm actually unsure if what you're referring to actually existed, but that there were more effective extant shorthand signifiers for the idea they were trying to convey doesn't cut into the fact that said signifiers in fact existed in the narrative, were executed as well as they were, and had bearing on the characters.

Also, from I’ve gathered from talking to female fans in real life, even a lot of the Kataang shippers, the whole "using a girlfriend as a therapist/surrogate/coping mechanism for the lost of an entire civilization" thing isn’t considered one of the positives; to them it sounds emotionally daunting and unhealthy, or at best an internal conflict to be overcome.
But they support each other the best they can. Is the argument that the support is lopsided? Because if that's the case, that's on Katara's character.

I mean, Katara liking him because of what represents is still only liking him based on what he is rather than who he is
Sounds extremely realistic.

I mean that in the most cynical way-- if only a man could be desired entirely because of "who he is"... whatever that means.

You unintentionally hitting the bullseye aside, everyone is largely the sum of their actions, and their actions reveal their character. Your distinction is improper. To clarify: in order to accomplish his goals, he had to be a particular kind of person. So, part of this is that he has the highest value out of any living human being, but he's also not a massive bint to decompensate for that. Part of it is also that he juggled being affable (and occasionally charming) with being resolute, wise, resourceful, etc. and accomplished the herculean task of ending a century long war.

That’s the sort of approach to romance most writers would attribute to antagonists like Gaston, not the story’s paragon of righteousness.
Except that Gaston was consistently arrogant and entitled (and accordingly his actions reflected this), so the dynamics are different.

And thing is, other aspects of the the show often contradict the idea that idea. Two of the major themes in the story is that the definition of inner strength is giving yourself hope when nothing else in the world will, and that "destiny" is determined not by belief but through actions driven by self-discovery. This actually a common thing in Katara’s own arc, since she’s often the one motivating Aang and others rather than Aang giving her motivation, and more often than not the story rewards Katara for having faith in herself and/or her fellow man than she is for having faith in Aang specifically. There’s even several instances where it’s shown that The Avatar being back isn’t enough to motivate people to action like in Imprisoned, or Aang is serving as an obstacle conflicting with her hope like in The Desert, The Serpent’s Pass, The Awakening, or arguably even the finale. Hell, one of the most interesting parts of the finale’s subplot is that when history has seemingly repeated itself with Aang having vanished when he’s needed the most, the conclusion the others come to is that they can’t worry about whatever Aang’s doing, and instead have to focus on what they can do for themselves because determining the fate of the world will come down to everyone doing their part rather than the actions of one person - you can even see this at work looking at the previous finales where majority of the time the pivotal turning points in battle are often brought about by people other than Aang like Yue’s sacrifice or Zuko‘s joining the fray in the catacombs. I’d even argue the contradiction can be summed up in the fortune cookie episode since the majority if it is about accepting instances where your love/crush is unrequited (complete with direct parallels between the girl crushing on Aang and how Aang treats Katara) and that you shouldn’t put so much stock into prophecies or what others tell you what your destiny should be (it’s even a running gag throughout that Katara is doing exactly this to the point she’s doing things she doesn't want to) only to swerve hard at the last second to go "oh look this vague description arbitrarily matches Aang, so Aunt Woo was actually right all along!" I feel like if your main couple‘s getting together has to against the grain of the message of your own show, then something has gone wrong.
You're gonna need more paragraph breaks moving forward, hot damn.

The sense I got from the fortuneteller episode was that while the fortuneteller's contributions were inherently fairly arbitrary because they were vague enough to fit any outcome (e.g. she said, IIRC, that the volcano wouldn't cause mass destruction and death, and it didn't... because the Gaang was there), she was still doing a fine service because she was able to motivate people to actually make their desires reality by their own hand by giving them a push by feeding them what they wanted to hear. This dynamic is rather unrelated to when Katara flashes back to what Aunt Woo said about her marrying a powerful bender; that isn't meant to imply that "oooooh maybe she was more than a bullshit artist all along!", but rather, that just happened to activate her hypergamy reconsider Aang as a person.

The closest is maybe The Southern Raiders, but there Aang scenes only leave her frustrated and this conflict doesn’t get resolved by the end since they never end up seeing eye-to-eye.
Not entirely, anyways, which is... a satisfingly mature outcome. She doesn't learn to forgive the guy that kidnapped and killed his mother, but she at least learns to forgive Zuko. You're also putting too much stock in his actual efficacy (which isn't totally dependent on him, his actual efficacy aside) rather than his willingness to help his comrade and the soundness of his words.
It paints a picture where Katara is usually Aang’s confidant, but Aang is never one for her.
but you just cited an example where he tried to give her practical advice for her sake
 
I can't recall which "The Guru" scene you're referring to, but I do recall that the first image of his POV post-iceberg being used in Pathik's explanation of how the love of his people didn't disappear from the world. I'm actually unsure if what you're referring to actually existed, but that there were more effective extant shorthand signifiers for the idea they were trying to convey doesn't cut into the fact that said signifiers in fact existed in the narrative, were executed as well as they were, and had bearing on the characters.


But they support each other the best they can. Is the argument that the support is lopsided? Because if that's the case, that's on Katara's character.


Sounds extremely realistic.

I mean that in the most cynical way-- if only a man could be desired entirely because of "who he is"... whatever that means.

You unintentionally hitting the bullseye aside, everyone is largely the sum of their actions, and their actions reveal their character. Your distinction is improper. To clarify: in order to accomplish his goals, he had to be a particular kind of person. So, part of this is that he has the highest value out of any living human being, but he's also not a massive bint to decompensate for that. Part of it is also that he juggled being affable (and occasionally charming) with being resolute, wise, resourceful, etc. and accomplished the herculean task of ending a century long war.


Except that Gaston was consistently arrogant and entitled (and accordingly his actions reflected this), so the dynamics are different.


You're gonna need more paragraph breaks moving forward, hot damn.

The sense I got from the fortuneteller episode was that while the fortuneteller's contributions were inherently fairly arbitrary because they were vague enough to fit any outcome (e.g. she said, IIRC, that the volcano wouldn't cause mass destruction and death, and it didn't... because the Gaang was there), she was still doing a fine service because she was able to motivate people to actually make their desires reality by their own hand by giving them a push by feeding them what they wanted to hear. This dynamic is rather unrelated to when Katara flashes back to what Aunt Woo said about her marrying a powerful bender; that isn't meant to imply that "oooooh maybe she was more than a bullshit artist all along!", but rather, that just happened to activate her hypergamy reconsider Aang as a person.


Not entirely, anyways, which is... a satisfingly mature outcome. She doesn't learn to forgive the guy that kidnapped and killed his mother, but she at least learns to forgive Zuko. You're also putting too much stock in his actual efficacy (which isn't totally dependent on him, his actual efficacy aside) rather than his willingness to help his comrade and the soundness of his words.

but you just cited an example where he tried to give her practical advice for her sake
The romance in ATLA sucks, this shouldn't even be something people argue over. It has always been poorly developed, badly executed and often contradictory to the overall themes and messages the show is trying to deliver to the audience.

The only one I tolerate is Sokka and Suki primarily because its used to help Sokka get over his first love (which was also awful for the three reasons above, but whatever), is mostly used for comedy afterward, takes up very little of the run time and both these characters have a lot of chemistry.
 
The romance in ATLA sucks, this shouldn't even be something people argue over. It has always been poorly developed, badly executed and often contradictory to the overall themes and messages the show is trying to deliver to the audience.
I've firmly been of the mind that until LoK, it wasn't the romantic development itself that was bad, but rather the writers (well, Bryke) trying to carry past a "happily ever after". They seemed to do fine with writing the conflict that led to the resolution (after all, you're just writing a different flavor of character dynamics along a Freytag triangle), but were so immersed with that that they were adrift when it came to depicting the realized relationship in a stable state, which is why Zuko's relationship fared poorly on a technical level-- the entire basis is ">childhood friend", so there wasn't enough buffer ahead of the point that they drag their faces across the ground.

The only one I tolerate is Sokka and Suki primarily because its used to help Sokka get over his first love (which was also awful for the three reasons above, but whatever), is mostly used for comedy afterward, takes up very little of the run time and both these characters have a lot of chemistry.
I tolerate it because she wasn't a character introduced after Yue's death, and it helps characterize his relationships as more unwittingly playboy-ish (consider as well his uncanny ability to attract random minor characters) versus the other, more standard relationships.
 
Can we all at least agree on this: Thank god the Chad Thundercock iteration of Toph with a subplot about competing for Katara’s affections that Bryke wanted never came to fruition? Can you imagine the 2nd season taking time away from the Ba Sing Se arc, or Zuko & Iroh’s adventures, or Azula shenanigans to fart around with the most cliche Jock vs Nerd wish fulfillment plot-line it was looking to be? Or what the fan base would’ve looked like because of that shit?

That would’ve straight up ruined the show.
The romance in ATLA sucks, this shouldn't even be something people argue over. It has always been poorly developed, badly executed and often contradictory to the overall themes and messages the show is trying to deliver to the audience.
I think what a lot of it comes down to is that a pitfall Bryke seem to repeat fall into every time they write romance (which I notice is actually a common pitfall non-romance writers fall into when trying to write romantic subplots) is that they don’t write those romantic subplots with the intention in exploring how those relationships relate thematically to the characters’ individual arcs or the overall themes of the show, and instead approached them almost as if they were separate from everything else. Hence why you get those weird contradictory messages or romantic B-plots that actively detract from the main plots by wasting time that could be better spent elsewhere.

The real irony of Zutara is that the scenes that generated so many fangirls to the point that Zutaratards outnumber canon shippers 5:3 (probably more) were scenes that work so well precisely because they weren’t written with romance in mind. The fact that Bryke could never figure this out is why they aren’t people to tackle romance to begin with.
The only one I tolerate is Sokka and Suki primarily because its used to help Sokka get over his first love (which was also awful for the three reasons above, but whatever), is mostly used for comedy afterward, takes up very little of the run time and both these characters have a lot of chemistry.
Actually, Sokka’s romances are a good example of the above. Sokka’s biggest character defining moment is when his father tells him that being a man means trusting your intuition to know where you’re needed the most, and Yue & Suki both exemplify that. Yue‘s whole thing was about putting the needs of her people first, and ultimately succeeds in this goal by giving her life to the moon. Suki meanwhile was inspired by Sokka to go out and join the war effort rather than continuing to avoid the war, and their subplot in The Serpent‘s Pass is about finding that balance between keeping the people you care about safe and trusting they‘ll be alright without you when you’re needed elsewhere.

Really the biggest hurdles when it comes to Sokka’s romances have the least amount of screen time, so there’s not enough to be seriously invested in. Incidentally they‘re also the ones Bryke didn’t give a shit about, so their scenes were mostly written by the other writers.
 
Can we all at least agree on this: Thank god the Chad Thundercock iteration of Toph with a subplot about competing for Katara’s affections that Bryke wanted never came to fruition?
That sounds disgusting. Thank God, indeed.

The real irony of Zutara is that the scenes that generated so many fangirls to the point that Zutaratards outnumber canon shippers 5:3 (probably more) were scenes that work so well precisely because they weren’t written with romance in mind.
I partly agree with your assessment, but the two main "competitors" were "troubled bad boy" and "dopey kid", and this show's target demographic was kids and teens. Based on observation of said shippers, I'm certain 95% of their rationale derives from self-insert fantasy on account of the character archetypes and Bryke got super unlucky in this regard.
 
I partly agree with your assessment, but the two main "competitors" were "troubled bad boy" and "dopey kid", and this show's target demographic was kids and teens. Based on observation of said shippers, I'm certain 95% of their rationale derives from self-insert fantasy on account of the character archetypes and Bryke got super unlucky in this regard.
Thing is, if it was only about having a self insert to project on a bad boy, then it’s curious that this trend doesn’t continue on with Jet (whose basically a reskin of JD from Heathers) even in the wake of a recent influx of "Jet did nothing wrong" people, nor treat any other characters like Mai as viewer surrogates, even though they are arguably way more of a blank slate than Katara. It’s not like fans have ever had a problem churning out material for non-entity characters before - just look at all anime fanbases chock full of "never even met" pairings and disproportionate amounts of porn for relatively minor characters.

And, I mean, isn’t that why the Makorra crashed and burned so hilariously? Because Bryke went "it’s just a bad boy firebender and self-inserting as water tribe girl, right? We can do that" but then fumbled this seemingly simple formula so hard that for the longest time Mako was the most reviled character next to Korra?
 
Thing is, if it was only about having a self insert to project on a bad boy, then it’s curious that this trend doesn’t continue on with Jet (whose basically a reskin of JD from Heathers) even in the wake of a recent influx of "Jet did nothing wrong" people, nor treat any other characters like Mai as viewer surrogates, even though they are arguably way more of a blank slate than Katara.
They're much less prominent characters, and Jet doesn't have the kind of character arc that Zuko did, which means that he remained as an unsympathetic anti-hero whose main purpose was to act as a foil for Sokka but was brought back in S2 to be the prime canary for the twist regarding Ba Sing Se. I'm assuming the fangirls wanted to self-insert into a relationship with a troubled bad boy, not a bad boy that would drown an entire town and the people in it. As for Mai, she's much more boring, yeah, but putting aside that she was introduced later, she's also bitchy, so it'd be harder to superimpose oneself on her anyhow.
And, I mean, isn’t that why the Makorra crashed and burned so hilariously? Because Bryke went "it’s just a bad boy firebender and self-inserting as water tribe girl, right? We can do that" but then fumbled this seemingly simple formula so hard that for the longest time Mako was the most reviled character next to Korra?
I thought it crashed and burned because they wrote Korra to be a bicycle.
 
Thing is, if it was only about having a self insert to project on a bad boy, then it’s curious that this trend doesn’t continue on with Jet (whose basically a reskin of JD from Heathers) even in the wake of a recent influx of "Jet did nothing wrong" people, nor treat any other characters like Mai as viewer surrogates, even though they are arguably way more of a blank slate than Katara. It’s not like fans have ever had a problem churning out material for non-entity characters before - just look at all anime fanbases chock full of "never even met" pairings and disproportionate amounts of porn for relatively minor characters.

And, I mean, isn’t that why the Makorra crashed and burned so hilariously? Because Bryke went "it’s just a bad boy firebender and self-inserting as water tribe girl, right? We can do that" but then fumbled this seemingly simple formula so hard that for the longest time Mako was the most reviled character next to Korra?
Well Zuko is also a prince, a pretty powerful firebender, and has arguably the best character arc in the show. Jet is just some dude with swords. As for self-inserts, Katara is the female lead, a powerful waterbender, and probably has more screentime than anyone except for Aang and Zuko. Mai is Azula's gloomy sidekick and again, no powers. People generally don't self-insert as weak characters because that would sort of defeat the purpose of self-inserting.

Makorra fell flat for the same reason a lot of Korra fell flat, Bryke just weren't able to make the characters interesting or even sympathetic.
 
Well Zuko is also a prince, a pretty powerful firebender, and has arguably the best character arc in the show. Jet is just some dude with swords. As for self-inserts, Katara is the female lead, a powerful waterbender, and probably has more screentime than anyone except for Aang and Zuko. Mai is Azula's gloomy sidekick and again, no powers. People generally don't self-insert as weak characters because that would sort of defeat the purpose of self-inserting.

Makorra fell flat for the same reason a lot of Korra fell flat, Bryke just weren't able to make the characters interesting or even sympathetic.
Funny this is, when you really look back, Zuko’s actually kind of a loser for most of the series. Being a prince gets him almost no respect since majority of the Fire Nation seems almost eager to watch him fail & later wants him dead, he spends almost all of season 2 as a penniless vagabond who mostly gets by because of the kindness of strangers, it’s mentioned a lot that he’s actually not a particularly talented fire bender - possibly even below average at the start - and has to put in twice as much effort just to keep up, he gets his ass handed to him all the time (I think he only officially won like 5 fights in the entire series), and the show itself never passes an opportunity for him to make jokes at his expense.

Zuko only really works as a self-insert if you ignore pretty much everything about his lot that sucks.
 
Funny this is, when you really look back, Zuko’s actually kind of a loser for most of the series. Being a prince gets him almost no respect since majority of the Fire Nation seems almost eager to watch him fail & later wants him dead, he spends almost all of season 2 as a penniless vagabond who mostly gets by because of the kindness of strangers, it’s mentioned a lot that he’s actually not a particularly talented fire bender - possibly even below average at the start - and has to put in twice as much effort just to keep up, he gets his ass handed to him all the time (I think he only officially won like 5 fights in the entire series), and the show itself never passes an opportunity for him to make jokes at his expense.

Zuko only really works as a self-insert if you ignore pretty much everything about his lot that sucks.
I don't remember Zuko being mentioned as not being a talented firebender, except when he's being compared to Azula in the eyes of Ozai, which is a crazy standard considering that Zuko's immediate family is basically a top 3 list of the best firebenders alive. It's like how Cooper Manning would be considered not a good football player in his own family, but that's only because his brothers are Peyton and Eli. Even season 1 Zuko, who kind of exists to get his ass kicked by Aang, and hasn't gotten instruction in anything beyond basic firebending from Iroh, was able to beat Zhao in a 1v1 duel. And in that same season he breaks Aang out of a prison guarded by firebenders without even using firebending.

Zuko is definitely hated in the story for obvious reasons, but in terms of what the character can actually do power-wise he's far from a loser, and I think that's what makes him so appealing as a self-insert character. It's similar to shounen anime characters who have an objectively bad situation but also have ridiculous abilities that fulfill the power fantasy element which more than makes up for it (Naruto, Sasuke, Eren, etc.).
 
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I don't remember Zuko being mentioned as not being a talented firebender, except when he's being compared to Azula in the eyes of Ozai, which is a crazy standard considering that Zuko's immediate family is basically a top 3 list of the best firebenders alive. It's like how Cooper Manning would be considered not a good football player in his own family, but that's only because his brothers are Peyton and Eli. Even season 1 Zuko, who kind of exists to get his ass kicked by Aang, and hasn't gotten instruction in anything beyond basic firebending from Iroh, was able to beat Zhao in a 1v1 duel. And in that same season he breaks Aang out of a prison guarded by firebenders without even using firebending.

Zuko is definitely hated in the story for obvious reasons, but in terms of what the character can actually do power-wise he's far from a loser, and I think that's what makes him so appealing as a self-insert character. It's similar to shounen anime characters who have an objectively bad situation but also have ridiculous abilities that fulfill the power fantasy element which more than makes up for it (Naruto, Sasuke, Eren, etc.).
I forget the episode, but it’s mentioned at least once that Zuko was something of a late bloomer and only started firebending when other children were already learning., with his prodigy sister starting much younger. There’s also the flashback in Zuko Alone where the form Zuko demonstrated is not only much simpler and therefore likely much less advanced than what Azula shows off, but his movements/fire blasts are noticeably slower and less graceful (props to the animators for that detail) even before he flubs it, showing a difference in their profess that doesn’t just come from Azula being insanely good.

It should also be noted Zhao is only in the position he is out of nepotism because Ozai keeps promoting him, rather than for his firebending prowess or leadership skills. And even then Zuko almost lost their first fight until the tail end. The prison break also has a even 50/50 split on Aang saving Zuko and vice versa, and only manage to get out because of what was either a really good bluff or a genuine threat on Zuko’s part before he got KO’d.

He’s got some great fights and moments, but he’s definitely an underdog in the power level & skill department.
 
I don't think Zuko's a schmuck at firebending, he's just surrounded by piles of prodigies. The other firebenders we primarily see are Iroh, Azula, and Ozai, and even a pretty good firebender would look like a chump in comparison. Toph's a similarly best of the best for earth and Katara is a gifted newbie as well as isn't constantly in the company of master waterbenders to make her look worse by contrast.
 
I don't think Zuko's a schmuck at firebending, he's just surrounded by piles of prodigies. The other firebenders we primarily see are Iroh, Azula, and Ozai, and even a pretty good firebender would look like a chump in comparison. Toph's a similarly best of the best for earth and Katara is a gifted newbie as well as isn't constantly in the company of master waterbenders to make her look worse by contrast.
Agreed.
Zuko was never a bad firebender. As a teenager he's already beating adult firebenders and squads of earth benders. The problem is as the crown prince the expectations are higher, and the struggle to meet those expectations is causing him grief.
 
I don't think Zuko's a schmuck at firebending, he's just surrounded by piles of prodigies. The other firebenders we primarily see are Iroh, Azula, and Ozai, and even a pretty good firebender would look like a chump in comparison. Toph's a similarly best of the best for earth and Katara is a gifted newbie as well as isn't constantly in the company of master waterbenders to make her look worse by contrast.
Agreed.
Zuko was never a bad firebender. As a teenager he's already beating adult firebenders and squads of earth benders. The problem is as the crown prince the expectations are higher, and the struggle to meet those expectations is causing him grief.
Thing is, it’s a running theme with Zuko that his greatest assets aren’t his actual skills, but his dedication and work ethic. Pretty much all his character defining moments revolve around how his successes all stem from his willingness to put in the hours to achieve his goals, and not letting anything silly like a the possibility of cataclysmic failure stop him from trying.

That only works if the point was he’s working against a natural ineptitude that directly contrasts with Azula and the others’ raw talent.
 
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It's also good that they balanced out all the prodigy/talented characters as well so that it's not completely unfair. Everyone has their weak points laid out. Toph is incredibly strong but is also disabled. Katara has natural talent but is new and had to work hard at it. Azula is a huge prodigy but is also incredibly emotionally unstable. Etc.

Even when Aang isn't God-modding in the Avatar state, he still has to work for it. I don't even think he really got to master anything past water on the show, being just okay/passable with the other elements.
 
Well, time to resurrect this thread (or more like creating conversation).

I always thought about one specific detail in TLOK S1:
Why the fucking Elemental Dodgeball? I mean, isn't a bad idea but seems too dull in the first place. I really wanted a proper tournament fight, like the underground arena in the S2 of ATLA. Even there's a nice non-guarded plataform in that stadium to throw off oponents in a nice Yakuza fashion.

So, what are you thoughts on that?
 
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