Grace Lavery / Joseph Lavery & Daniel M. Lavery / Mallory Ortberg - "Straight with extra steps" couple trooning out to avoid "dwindling into mere heterosexuality"

[CobraPlissken]

Oh right, this thread.
I would ask @CobraPlissken to remove some of the spoilers, at least for the images and screenshots that arent nsfw before moving.
The dox and additional crossovers are still missing, though if OP’s ok having the thread go public without them, just lmk.

Done! For me it's ok if it goes public now.

 

[illhavetwo]

I can't believe I didn't know this thread existed! Fantastic writeup, @CobraPlissken .

I remember reading speculation on /r/blogsnark that Mallory is also a narc because her advice columns read like a robot trying to imitate proper human responses but now that I think of it, this could also describe an autistic person.

 

[Burning Fanatic]

Done! For me it's ok if it goes public now.

Where do you want it + what prefix?

 

[CobraPlissken]

Lolcows forum with the "Lolcow" prefix, please. They're not as connected to other troons to belong to the Rat King, and I don't think any other forum/prefix really applies to them.

 

[flight of ideas]

I remember reading speculation on /r/blogsnark that Mallory is also a narc because her advice columns read like a robot trying to imitate proper human responses but now that I think of it, this could also describe an autistic person.

Mallory/Danny is not autistic, merely soul-crushingly awkward, and despite what internet culture would have you believe, those are not the same thing. Being shit at social interaction is not always attributable to a pervasive developmental disorder; sometimes you just haven’t had enough practice being a person with other people.

 

[Trianon]

A few days ago, the Women's Prize announced they had longlisted a book by Torrey Peters, a MTF writer. Radfem Twitter has been scooping up some choice quotes from Peters' work that are ... alarming. The main character is MTF. Excerpting a few:

"He slapped me as I had seen women slapped in movies, by brutes larger than them, without fear or consideration that the woman might retaliate. Assured of her physical helplessness. But I am not that much smaller than Felix. My hands are larger. Yet I took the slap without even thinking of hitting back, had even apologized, meek as an abused woman. Whatever size I might be, whatever shape, Felix saw me as a woman, and that he could treat me as a vulnerable woman, confident that I'd react as one. And I did. The thought turned me on. His slap had been the most feminizing thing that had ever happened to me, the most pure forced feminization of my life." (X)

"Reece spent a lifetime observing cis women confirm their genders through male violence."

I just realized while typing that up that Torrey was also the one who said "detransition narratives are for trans people" on NPR a few days ago.

Anyway, Grace is big mad that people are rightly reading these excerpts and being disgusted by the highkey misogyny. This is "anti-sex" and "anti-art," but also book burning is totes fine!

I've followed the Laverys for a long time, but those excerpts made me truly ill. Given how prevalent the sissy porn stuff is among autogynephiles and transition stories, I sincerely doubt this book is using it as a character flaw. Lavery himself has said being talked down "like a woman" was a thrill.

"Women secretly love being hit and you're an icky puritan if you don't think so!"

P.S. Thanks for adding this to the public-facing part of the site, btw, I didn't know this thread existed and now finally have an excuse to make an account. I've been hate-reading them on my own for too long.

 

[ShortPoppy]

There's no such thing as a flattering image of Joe per se, but there's a meme circulating that paints him in an especially negative light.
View attachment 1981172
Joe reposted the image on Twitter claiming that the quote was taken out of context and does not represent what he really meant.
View attachment 1981171
Read the article (Archive) and it's quite clear that the quote is exactly what it seems. Joe meant that when he wore panties to a professional conference and fantasized about being a "bitch" and the "victim of sexism," he got a boner. Gross.

It's a pattern with these FTM penis envy chicks that they envy men so much they will almost feel honored by letting themselves be degraded by the lowest of men, just because it's a man.

This quote from Joe's article stood out for me:

For those of us whose pre-transition lives also entailed our being excluded from male society because of the inadequacy of our approximations or travesties of maleness (among which I mostly count myself), to be the victim of honest, undisguised sexism possesses an exhilarating vitality, as well as a kind of moral clarity. And yet of course — of course — it is on those very grounds that women who aren’t trans query our commitment to the collective struggle. As though every woman in that room, French and otherwise, trans and otherwise, young and otherwise, wasn’t delighted to sense in the abject sheepishness of my French colleague’s response, the coming of a better world in which he would have no power; have had no legacy.

... I'm not sure what to make of this, except how deeply fucked up he must be to make his very identity an ideological weapon intended to destroy 'maleness' in its totality. It sounds like he transitioned to reject his own maleness (while Mallory, I suppose, transitioned into the only acceptable form of maleness in their ideology), because the "collective struggle" all women are apparently enlisted in, which he has gleefully joined, is to storm the Bastille of masculinity and guillotine every man of cultural/social importance, and end the cultural/social importance of men altogether.

And I find it hard to feel sorry for Mallory. Based on what she's written over the years Joe is probably the one and only man of her political-lesbian dreams.

 

[Trianon]

... I'm not sure what to make of this, except how deeply fucked up he must be to make his very identity an ideological weapon intended to destroy 'maleness' in its totality.

The full wedding vows are insane and feed totally into this theory.

In particular, I shall not scapegoat or punish you for the ways in which you are different from is me, from the ways in which your desire and identity are different from mine; rather than chastising you for the sin of masculinity, I honor, tend, and cherish it - I will lavish affection on your differences, tend your wounds, love the places of pain. By honoring your relation to embodiment, and seeking out other places to process my resentments at masculinity and maleness, I hope we can avoid dwindling into mere heterosexuality. (X)

It is so deeply creepy. He made Mallory into a living embodiment of everything he hates and then acted like he was making a great sacrifice not to hold it against her.

 

[KifflomKween]

The full wedding vows are insane and feed totally into this theory.



It is so deeply creepy. He made Mallory into a living embodiment of everything he hates and then acted like he was making a great sacrifice not to hold it against her.

Joe is a self hating faggot who is so intimidated by men the only way he feels confortable with his homosexuality is by turning his wife into a castrated parody of a man and trooning out. Sad. Hes exactly like those "lesbians" who hate men because they won't fuck them or if they do its only for pump and dump. Masculinity oppresses Joe for the same reasons, he envies it because he's a pathetic excuse of a man and because real men dont want anything to do with him and his creepy faggotry.
I wouldnt feel too sorry for Mallory. Like attracts like.

 

[Potatis Salad]

Are there any makeup-savvy folx in here who can give me a tutorial on how to get this gorgeous smoky eye?

Anyway, happy Friday, kweens! Here's some eye candy to kick off your weekend.

Spoiler: moobs

 

[Cryin RN]

... I'm not sure what to make of this, except how deeply fucked up he must be to make his very identity an ideological weapon intended to destroy 'maleness' in its totality. It sounds like he transitioned to reject his own maleness (while Mallory, I suppose, transitioned into the only acceptable form of maleness in their ideology), because the "collective struggle" all women are apparently enlisted in, which he has gleefully joined, is to storm the Bastille of masculinity and guillotine every man of cultural/social importance, and end the cultural/social importance of men altogether.

This reminds me of Rhys McKinnon, too. There's a real nasty anti-authority streak in a lot of these losers. They can't stand to have anyone be superior to them for whatever reason, even if they deserve to be. Whamen are obviously inferior and you can just bully them into submission, but men give shit right back, so they launch these passive-aggressive crusades. Rhys can't tolerate any of his bosses telling him what to do. Greta Martela posts Facebook fantasies about shooting glowies because he can't have a normal interaction with any cop. This dude blogposts his daydreams about how all the mean boys who bullied him in high school will die die DIE. It's pathetic.

 

[Frances Kiwi Farmer]

Joe is a self hating faggot who is so intimidated by men the only way he feels confortable with his homosexuality is by turning his wife into a castrated parody of a man and trooning out. Sad.

Nah, Joe's a heterosexual man whose primary sexual attraction is to himself as a woman (autogynephilia), followed by his secondary attraction to women. Much like how he gets a boner when he's "treated like shit by men" because he believes it to be evidence of his true and honest womanliness, he only enjoys sexual attention from men insofar as he views sexual submission to men as a feminizing act, which turns him on by making him feel womanly.

Masculinity oppresses Joe for the same reasons, he envies it because he's a pathetic excuse of a man and because real men dont want anything to do with him and his creepy faggotry.

Hard agree with this, tho. I suspect many women don't either, but they'll be nice at conferences because that's what women do. What Joe doesn't realize is that that old French guy is treating him badly because he (Frenchie) has tenure, male socialization (which is a good thing, especially here!), and no fucks to give. If those nice lady academics had the same, they might not be so nice anymore. By his own admission(!), Joe has just as much, if not more, self-interest in keeping his female colleagues in their places as Dr. Old Boys Club (and in the continued existence of Dr. Old Boy) -- how else is he supposed to feel all ladylike but through the sisterhood of muh sexisms?

... I'm not sure what to make of this, except how deeply fucked up he must be to make his very identity an ideological weapon intended to destroy 'maleness' in its totality. It sounds like he transitioned to reject his own maleness (while Mallory, I suppose, transitioned into the only acceptable form of maleness in their ideology), because the "collective struggle" all women are apparently enlisted in, which he has gleefully joined, is to storm the Bastille of masculinity and guillotine every man of cultural/social importance, and end the cultural/social importance of men altogether.

Joe definitely hates masculinity, in the same way many autogynephiles do. And as you've touched on, I don't think he wants to destroy masculinity. In fact, he needs it, in it's most perverse and twisted and violent form, in order to make femininity intelligible and accessible (so he thinks) to him. Obviously Torrey Peters and lots of other TW feel this way (both AGP and HSTS? curious about this), but I find the way Joe goes about so repelling -- to Berkeley's eternal discredit, this shit literally creeps into his academic work! I'll post screenshots when I have a moment.

P.S. Thanks for adding this to the public-facing part of the site, btw, I didn't know this thread existed and now finally have an excuse to make an account. I've been hate-reading them on my own for too long.

Dude, same! I hope interest doesn't wane before Joe's memoir drops in 2022. I truly can't wait.

 

[Potatis Salad]

Terf writer Jane Clare Jones tweeted a quote from Detransition, Baby, a new novel by a troon author in which the troon main character thinks (of course) that male violence is the ultimate in wammanly fabulousness:


Joe's response:

First of all, Jane Clare Jones' point has nothing to do with "degrading sex" in literature. Second, Sally Rooney's character in Normal People* engages in masochism as a complicated and maladaptive response to abuse. The character in Detransition, Baby thinks that abuse gives women gender euphoria. The fact that Joe thinks both characters are just "women who want degrading sex" proves Jane's point for her.

*In the show, Marianne just kinda ends up in BDSM scenes; the book depicts her as more active in seeking them out. The question of whether she enjoys them is still unequivocally "no."

Joe can't be a misogynist though, he gives soOoOoO much to the sisterhood!

A sisterly sentiment: "fuck terfs." Girl power!

 

[Trianon]

He can't be a misogynist though, he gives soOoOoO much to the sisterhood!View attachment 1993435

Big "I can't be sexist, I have a mom!" vibes. Don't want or need your help, thanks.

 

[Easy Peasy]

Mallory used to contribute a lot to autostraddle, which used to focus heavily on lesbian content. Then they went kweer and started posting shit articles about how to eat out transwomen.

Knew I knew this dumb cunt from somewhere. Sorry I'm late, but there we are. Pardon the autism

 

[illhavetwo]

Speaking of Mallory being "lesbian", is there any info on how these two met? Because according to the OP they hooked up before Grace trooned out so there wasn't even an element of "I'm still lesbian because Grace is a true and honest woman".

You hear a lot about women coming out as lesbian after a lifetime of fucking and being in relationships with men but not so much the other way around.

 

[Potatis Salad]

Speaking of Mallory being "lesbian", is there any info on how these two met? Because according to the OP they hooked up before Grace trooned out so there wasn't even an element of "I'm still lesbian because Grace is a true and honest woman".

You hear a lot about women coming out as lesbian after a lifetime of fucking and being in relationships with men but not so much the other way around.

Joe was a fan of The Toast and started corresponding with Mallory online. They eventually met irl because he wanted her to speak to one of his classes at Berkeley. I'm sure one of them has written about it in detail; I'll keep trying to find it.

Meanwhile, I found this (Archive) in Mallory's blog. It seems like the general consensus from elsewhere on the internet is that she was gay before trooning out, but she denies it:

...as you know, I was not a lesbian before I transitioned! ...I was a bisexual lady who wore a lot of Diane von Furstenberg wrap dresses. Nice DVF wrap dresses, that suited my shape and complemented my coloring!

Another pathetic excerpt from the paragon of masculinity:

...we were at one of those downtown quick-lunch places where you have to ask for the bathroom key, and the woman working there handed me the key to the women’s room without even a pause or a double-take or anything approaching uncertainty. And she seemed like a really lovely, thoughtful woman; there was absolutely no malice in it. That's just what she saw when she looked at me. And coming to terms with the fact that other people see us in ways we might not choose is part of being a person, not just being trans, and I certainly have worse problems than that one, but it just killed me, and I started sobbing. And nothing makes me feel more like a girl than crying in the women's bathroom!!!!

Elsewhere in the blog entry, Joe, a heterosexual male, refers to a past relationship as "retroactively lesbianified." Unclear whether he's talking about his ex wife or a girlfriend, but whoever she is, I'm sure she's totally on board with the idea that she's a lesbian now.

 

[Trianon]

This audio / archived audio is a pretty good resource for Nicole and Mallory's friendship and how it endured the trooning. There's some info about how Mallory was hanging out with Joe a lot and basically not telling anyone else about it. This could be because of the weird Joe/Mallory codependence or very much How Mallory Is. Reading Nicole talk about Mallory always sounds like Nicole is WAY more into her than Mallory is, or at least Mallory does a really bad job of maintaining relationships reciprocally. Nicole showers them with money and nudes and ... idk what Nicole gets out of it.

NICOLE: I felt bad later that I had been like a poor friend in that there are things I should have noticed and realizing that like Danny had been talking about this with other people who weren't me, and I felt such jealousy so briefly in that moment.

NICOLE: Grace had like that, that thing I've always wanted, which is physical proximity to you. You know, like that was like something that, that Grace had access to and I'm like, Oh my God, Grace is going to have all this time, you know, with Danny to develop this kind of like intimacy.

NICOLE: Danny was like, yes, Grace and I are on our way. And I was like, who the fuck is Grace? Because Danny had forgotten to tell me that? Like this person, I was jealous.

Also fyi Nicole became a born-again Christian with the guidance of Lauren Ortberg and John Ortberg. Mallory was already a nonbeliever at that point, but Nicole bonded with the whole family through that. She cut them off when Mallory did and I think just stopped attending church but as far as I know she's still a Christian. Her conversion story is kind of interesting and how I started following the whole gang.

 

[Dromedary]

P.S. Thanks for adding this to the public-facing part of the site, btw, I didn't know this thread existed and now finally have an excuse to make an account. I've been hate-reading them on my own for too long.

SAME. Lavery is such a ghastly ghoul and sicko, I can't help but be drawn to reading about such an appalling, delusional failure of a man. Really something ghastly. Look at this ridiculous person:

This person expects us to take him seriously. A professor and pontificator. It's like a bad SNL skit with Chris Kattan from 22 years ago. ^This^ person loves to proclaim, with complete authority, on everything under the sun. Just an expert on EVERYTHING. "My Proclamation to the House of Lords on Graham Linehan" "My Decree on Clerical Sexual Abuse By My Husband's Family"- Lavery is AGAINST it, unlike the rest of us who LOVE religious sexual abuse, and he wants praise for how STUNNING and BRAVE his stance is. Fucking assclown.

There's such a list of hateful, pathological shit this Lavery creature constantly puts out. Misogynist bile that women's sex-based rights are a fiction. Mocking the concerns over powerful dangerous "puberty-blocking" drugs on children. "Mommy scooped out my womb!!" Lavery sneered over how these drugs affect future fertility. Lavery is DYING to get kids on drugs and under the knife, and RAGES against brave truth tellers like Keira Bell. Isn't it sick to think of this creep's obsession with kids?

Lavery lies constantly, CONSTANTLY. Just pathologically dishonest. About everything. It was extraordinary that Foreign Policy published Lavery's bitchy dissent against the Keira Bell decision (why?) and then had to issue multiple corrections because Lavery distorted and lied and made a mockery of them. Jesse Singal rightly covered this, he's on the TRA hit-list lately, constant character assasinatiom because this is what low-lifes like Lavery are. Lavery eggs this on .

Lavery is a sad autogynephile misogynist. Constantly begging for affirmation and asspats from his low-IQ brainwashed female fans. "OOh, so pretty, Grace! You go girl! Such beautiful skin!" these dingbats coo, unaware that filters exist and Lavery actually looks like a wrinkled deathly consumptive (how Victorian!). The neediness is embarrassing. Lavery spends a lot of time flabbily plopped around the house, taking slovenly selfies of the moobs brought on by the horse-piss pills, and they eat it up. "Oh, you're so unbelievably beautiful!" scrawl these hopeless spinsters to feed his ego.

One of my favorite articles by our ladylike flower was about Lavery taking Viagra and jerking his withered tiny prick. How feminine, surely every woman can relate! Lavery's a big ole lesbian too, he'll have you know. "Marie's Crisis is open, let's go girls!" he wrote recently about the famed lesbian bar in the Village. Utterly clueless that actual lesbians are driven up a wall by their spaces invaded by creeps like Lavery, trying and failing to be one of them. Just another pushy guy barging in and appropriating lesbianism and womanhood for himself- make room, ladies!

And the way Lavery- a heterosexual be-penised man married to someone with a vagina- constantly appropriates the words "queer" and "lesbian" for himself just appalls me as a gay man. It's a joke to him, but it's not to us. What's up with Lavery fantasizing/lying about all the lesbo hookups he has when he's married to a "man"? Yeah, another joke. Lavery treats "Danny" as a dimwit, a mentally impaired sidekick Lavery condescends to. Always describing the spouse as amusingly stupid to readers. Weird S/M relationship there.

There's more, there will be more. Horrid people can't stop themselves from pumping out more bad material of their egos to the world. Lavery's on a mission to loudly demand that gender-nonconforming gay kids be chemically castrated by puberty blockers and put on the assembly line to eventual surgical butchery. That makes him evil to me. Joe "Buffalo Bill" Lavery will probably read this since his preening narcissism will seek it out, that's fine. (Here's a message: you're a ghastly person. And I have it on good authority, personal sources, that Terry Castle finds you an embarrassment to have as a colleague. Have a nice day.)

 

[Trianon]

Bravo! Daniel's persona is its own brand of insufferably twee, but Joe's faux intellectualism drives me up the wall. His manifestos are ridiculous. The "sex-based rights aren't REAL" is the perfect example, in which he cites Freud -- FREUD! -- as evidence that sexuality is soooo much more than is dreamt of in your plebeian minds. The theory-contortions this man gets in, all so he can sigh over godawful fur coats. I just.

Have we even gotten into the fact that the Laverys are now in a threesome? The utter debasement of Mallory to Joe's fetishes is almost complete. And Mallory has even picked up his penchant for needing a "dimwit sidekick" and makes catty, disparaging remarks about her(?), only to realize belatedly that he's a man now and isn't supposed to say things like that.