Christianity without creationism - Also other similar theologies.

Because the notion that "Old Earth + Evolution = Christians pwned!" is a false goal.

So what if it took life on Earth 295 billion years to reach its current point? I still accept Jesus Christ as my lord & savior who died for my sins.
Eat a dick, fedoras.
 
Because the notion that "Old Earth + Evolution = Christians pwned!" is a false goal.

So what if it took life on Earth 295 billion years to reach its current point? I still accept Jesus Christ as my lord & savior who died for my sins.
Eat a dick, fedoras.
"actually, real christians think the bible is literal in every aspect, thats what my baptist dad believes and i hate him"
 
My point wasn't that our understanding of the process of radioactive decay is flawed, such that radioactive decay rates themselves are flawed or that issues would arise with the devices you mentioned, but that there may be an erroneous starting point for the isotopes. I'm not sure how serious the alleged isotope discrepancy might be since I haven't been able to look a the paper.
I'm not exactly sure which paper you're referring to, but since the only source you linked to was Answers in Genesis, I'm going to suggest that you probably have trouble distinguishing a good source from a bad one. I'm also unsure what you mean when you suggest that the isotopes may have had an "erroneous starting point". We have formulas to work out the decay rates of various isotopes, and we have separate formulas to calculate the relative atomic mass (in other words: the percent abundance of each isotope) for every element. The formulas work, so I don't see what should be erroneous about the results.
Also, what are you talking about when you're referring to a correlation between cosmic inflation and radiometric dating? They don't use cosmic isotopes to try to determine the ages of objects in space do they?
I was referring to the fact that the dates suggested by radiometric dating here on Earth are consistent with the dates suggested by the expansion of the universe. We can estimate the age of the universe (and by extension, our own galaxy) by looking at the rate of cosmic expansion, and working backwards from there until we reach a point where the universe can no longer get any smaller (the big bang). The figures we get from these observations are on the order of billions of years, which is consistent with the timescales suggested by the geological findings here on Earth.

The question I like to ask every young-Earth creationist around about now is this: knowing that the consensus within cosmology, geology, physical chemistry, paleontology, biology, and genetics are all pointing in the same direction, why do you suppose that all of the experts within these fields are so scandalously wrong, and why do they all seem to be wrong in precisely the same way? I know this question may seem like something of a cheap shot, but I think you'd have to be very incredulous not to at least contemplate it.
 
I'm not exactly sure which paper you're referring to, but since the only source you linked to was Answers in Genesis, I'm going to suggest that you probably have trouble distinguishing a good source from a bad one. I'm also unsure what you mean when you suggest that the isotopes may have had an "erroneous starting point". We have formulas to work out the decay rates of various isotopes, and we have separate formulas to calculate the relative atomic mass (in other words: the percent abundance of each isotope) for every element. The formulas work, so I don't see what should be erroneous about the results.

I was referring to the fact that the dates suggested by radiometric dating here on Earth are consistent with the dates suggested by the expansion of the universe. We can estimate the age of the universe (and by extension, our own galaxy) by looking at the rate of cosmic expansion, and working backwards from there until we reach a point where the universe can no longer get any smaller (the big bang). The figures we get from these observations are on the order of billions of years, which is consistent with the timescales suggested by the geological findings here on Earth.

The question I like to ask every young-Earth creationist around about now is this: knowing that the consensus within cosmology, geology, physical chemistry, paleontology, biology, and genetics are all pointing in the same direction, why do you suppose that all of the experts within these fields are so scandalously wrong, and why do they all seem to be wrong in precisely the same way? I know this question may seem like something of a cheap shot, but I think you'd have to be very incredulous not to at least contemplate it.
The paper I'm referring to was by Dr. Libby. The website claims that he dismissed an unusual ratio of carbon isotopes, which could be an indication of the isotopes being out of equilibrium, as error, but I haven't managed to read his paper to verify this or check how out of equilibrium they might be. That's what I mean by erroneous starting point; the age of fossils could be overestimated if the creatures died in an era when there was much less carbon-14 than expected.

In terms of cosmic expansion, I did note that relativity could have an effect. Also, as far as relative agreement between ages of the Earth and the universe, how close are they supposed to be? Would relativity affect the assessment of cosmic expansion, or for that matter, the background microwave radiation, and how closely do those agree? Come to think of it, how do they know when expansion would have begun if they aren't certain of the size of the universe? Is it based off of the acceleration of the expansion?
 
The paper I'm referring to was by Dr. Libby. The website claims that he dismissed an unusual ratio of carbon isotopes, which could be an indication of the isotopes being out of equilibrium, as error, but I haven't managed to read his paper to verify this or check how out of equilibrium they might be. That's what I mean by erroneous starting point; the age of fossils could be overestimated if the creatures died in an era when there was much less carbon-14 than expected.
Carbon-14 is only good for dating things that are less than 50,000 years old, due to it's relatively short half-life. Scientists are also well aware of the degree to which carbon concentration in the atmosphere can vary depending upon the geological period, as well as the processes which govern it (the carbon cycle, volcanic activity, carbon weathering, etc), and how to determine the concentration (radiocarbon dating and dendrochronology).

Even if everything we knew about radiocarbon dating was wrong (it isn't), it would do absolutely nothing to transform our current understanding of the age of the Earth. We have other methods (such as uranium-lead dating) which are far more accurate for that.
In terms of cosmic expansion, I did note that relativity could have an effect. Also, as far as relative agreement between ages of the Earth and the universe, how close are they supposed to be? Would relativity affect the assessment of cosmic expansion, or for that matter, the background microwave radiation, and how closely do those agree? Come to think of it, how do they know when expansion would have begun if they aren't certain of the size of the universe? Is it based off of the acceleration of the expansion?
Relativity states that the faster you travel, time slows down, but the kind of speeds an object would need to be travelling in order to experience a significant difference in time dilation are so large that it's not especially relevant to calculations concerning the age of the universe (an object would need to be travelling roughly 87% the speed of light just to slow time down by 50%, for example). It's also known that cosmic expansion is accelerating, which would suggest that time would have moved faster, not slower, during the early universe than it does now.

How we calculate cosmic expansion is by looking at the observable universe and calculating how fast galaxies are moving away from one another (typically by monitoring how redshifted they are). The absolute size of the universe is not especially relevant, since cosmic expansion works in all directions everywhere, and is a property of space itself. What's relevant is knowing how densely concentrated all of the matter and energy in the observable universe would have been at arbitrary intervals into the past, and it's here how we work out when the big bang happened.
 
If the goal was humans, you're smoking crack if you think an all powerful God would take so long to do it.
The good thing is, not all religions include the premise that there are omnipotent Gods. Only monotheistic religions have that concept. The Gods allow Gaia to mold us how She will. They have no reason not to.
 
I'm not saying creationism makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying that a god that gives two shits about people would probably not take his sweet ass time to make them.

The bottom line is if humans are the goal, why nog get to the fucking point? If essentially 0 effort is required to make them from scratch, why make it look like everything came about naturally?
You can go to the grocery store and buy a pack of lemons, yet some people opt to plant their own seeds. It's not purely logical to do so: you have to buy a pack of seeds to plant, fertilizer to grow said plant, and wait weeks for it to grow. This is all in service to recreate a process that could've been easily circumvented by a trip to the store, but are you standing outside of your local Home Depot trying to debunk everyone who walks out with a pack of tomato seeds?
 
Carbon-14 is only good for dating things that are less than 50,000 years old, due to it's relatively short half-life. Scientists are also well aware of the degree to which carbon concentration in the atmosphere can vary depending upon the geological period, as well as the processes which govern it (the carbon cycle, volcanic activity, carbon weathering, etc), and how to determine the concentration (radiocarbon dating and dendrochronology).

Even if everything we knew about radiocarbon dating was wrong (it isn't), it would do absolutely nothing to transform our current understanding of the age of the Earth. We have other methods (such as uranium-lead dating) which are far more accurate for that.

Relativity states that the faster you travel, time slows down, but the kind of speeds an object would need to be travelling in order to experience a significant difference in time dilation are so large that it's not especially relevant to calculations concerning the age of the universe (an object would need to be travelling roughly 87% the speed of light just to slow time down by 50%, for example). It's also known that cosmic expansion is accelerating, which would suggest that time would have moved faster, not slower, during the early universe than it does now.

How we calculate cosmic expansion is by looking at the observable universe and calculating how fast galaxies are moving away from one another (typically by monitoring how redshifted they are). The absolute size of the universe is not especially relevant, since cosmic expansion works in all directions everywhere, and is a property of space itself. What's relevant is knowing how densely concentrated all of the matter and energy in the observable universe would have been at arbitrary intervals into the past, and it's here how we work out when the big bang happened.
As a note, gravity also plays a role in time dilation, so I'd imagine that there is the possibility of a fair amount of dilation in the early universe, but again, I can't do the calculations. As far as velocity, the expansion itself shouldn't be velocity, since it's the expansion of space, but out of curiosity, how fast might the non-light particles be moving? Actually, would the expansion of space itself also affect dilation in some manner? Also, I think I read in one of Dr. David Greene's books that distance coupled with motion could also affect the perception of time. From what I understand, if someone is observing light from a far away source while moving, the light will appear to be from a further back time than if observed when standing still, although I might be wrong about that or misunderstand what he meant.
 
As a note, gravity also plays a role in time dilation, so I'd imagine that there is the possibility of a fair amount of dilation in the early universe, but again, I can't do the calculations. As far as velocity, the expansion itself shouldn't be velocity, since it's the expansion of space, but out of curiosity, how fast might the non-light particles be moving? Actually, would the expansion of space itself also affect dilation in some manner? Also, I think I read in one of Dr. David Greene's books that distance coupled with motion could also affect the perception of time. From what I understand, if someone is observing light from a far away source while moving, the light will appear to be from a further back time than if observed when standing still, although I might be wrong about that or misunderstand what he meant.
I'm not sure what effect cosmic expansion might have on how time is experienced locally, but certainly in terms of the effect it has on the relative velocity of distant objects, it would increase directional time dilation between those two objects. In terms of gravitational time dilation, you run into a similar problem to the one I pointed out earlier, which is that the gravitational potential you'd need to significantly slow time down is so tremendously large. In other words, if the universe is any less dense than a black hole, you're simply not going to get the kind of time dilation needed in order to support the timescales proposed by young-Earth creationists. Even neutron stars are only thought to increase time dilation by around 20%.
 
So many bullshit about the topic yet no one ever mentions that the first tale of creation in the bible is immediately followed by a second contradictory tale of creation.
About the OP, it's a faggot atheist approach that fails the moment anyone argues that god created the "system" of the world that results in the large sequence of events leading to humanity. And in general, Atheism fails because it doesn't really give any alternative explanation for what created the universe so it just tries to tear everything else down, plus it never follows up to the logical ramifications of a godless world.
 
The point of this thread isn't about how dumb creationism is (it's pretty dumb but whatever). It's that any anthrocentric theology is dumb without a form of creationism.
Deism can still work here, but Christianity can't. If the goal is to make people, a perfectly wise god would choose the most efficient route. "Mysterious ways" is a dumbfuck argument since it only takes the most basic understanding to understand how dumb it would be to take a billion extra steps to do what he could effortlessly do in a millisecond all in one go.
What makes you think it wasn't a millisecond to him? And what makes you think humans are His only project? God could have billions of other worlds cooking in this universe, most of which were formed long before our Earth came about. God could be an enormous fractal being who has a different form of the Godhead operating on each planet, tailored to its specific existence, and all essentially are united and function as one Being on a higher Heavenly plane. Trying to guess what God is and what He's up to is like an ant trying to figure out what a human is like. If that bothers you, that such a being could be aware of your existence on the Personal level and yet be so wide and encompassing as to fill all of history and space beyond the little part of it that we can perceive in our telescopes, then you're just going to have to be bothered. There is no way to answer your questions to your satisfaction.
 
I’m not sure you can be a Christian without believing in creation the more I think about it.

The entire arc of Christianity is reconciling yourself with your creator. Its not just part of it but the entire purpose Christianity exists. If you believe in God, and the fact he sent his son to redeem you and all that, why is the idea that he created you such a hard sell? Its the core part of the faith.

As for the 6 days thing, again why not. As a christian you believe in so many supernatural things, heaven, hell, jesus, etc. On top of that the last century has been amazing for discovery of how God might have used physics for his work. Theory of relativity, 6 days according to whose clock?

Other things like the changes in the speed of light, dilation of the universe etc etc. Carbon dating and fossils records (and as for prehuman ones several have been demonstrably faked) make a lot of assumptions that are adjusted as time goes on. The discovery that there are extra dimensions, that we live in a bounded subset of the universe.

Im not saying these all prove one thing or another the point is our understanding is constantly changing.

I’m not saying we know all the answers but there isn’t as big of a divide as you would imagine and its weird so many Christians get caught up in this but accept so many other things.
 
As for the 6 days thing, again why not. As a christian you believe in so many supernatural things, heaven, hell, jesus, etc. On top of that the last century has been amazing for discovery of how God might have used physics for his work. Theory of relativity, 6 days according to whose clock?

Other things like the changes in the speed of light, dilation of the universe etc etc. Carbon dating and fossils records (and as for prehuman ones several have been demonstrably faked) make a lot of assumptions that are adjusted as time goes on. The discovery that there are extra dimensions, that we live in a bounded subset of the universe.
The crucial point here is that the assumptions scientists make aren't adjusted arbitrarily; they're merely refined as our understanding grows and our scientific instruments become better. We now know what the speed of light is to a high degree of accuracy, just as we know how radioactive decay works to a high degree of accuracy, and based upon what we know about the laws of physics, we have absolutely no reason to believe that these things were ever markedly different, much less any actual evidence to support such a notion.

As for fossils: suggesting that the fossil record is some kind of forgery is a crackpot-tier objection, even if you insist on throwing in century-old red herrings like Piltdown man. The fact remains that fossils are only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to evolution, and with each new discipline and discovery, all of the pieces still come together to create the same picture. Why is that?
 
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