Why didn't Africans ever establish any society on par with the ones in Eurasia?

[Lemmingwise]

even when you hear stories about peasants/tribesmen from Africa they tend to say how welcoming the people are.

When you're not online, people tend to make things sound nicer because it's a way to signal they themselves are good people. Maybe I did that in that post too, looking back.

I also saw africans on the street, practically bones over skin, nobody giving a fuck, it was almost impossible to get a basic good meal except in the countryside and you had to have armed guards basicly everywhere you slept. They were also vicious to animals of all types. They thought of birds only as things to shoot, adults enjoyed throwing rocks at defenseless dogs and puppies. I'm saying the africans in africa were approachable, happy people. I didn't say they were good people.

 

[Voltekka]

One word; bantu.

The bantus are one of the most retarded ethnicities of humanity. They destroyed the most prosperous empires of Africa with their tribalistic tendencies, have poor ability to plan ahead in comparison to other ethnicities, and its cultural norms are one of lazyness and opportunism. You can still see those norms on modern African Americans, group of which has 80% or so of their lineage tracing to the bantus.

They fucked the entirety of Sub-Saharan Africa, and overall, helped devolve Africa 5,000 years back.

Don't blame black people. They were replaced by the Bantu.

 

[Toolbox]

Zebras, Rhinos, and Hippos can't be domesticated for many reasons.

Water Buffalo possibly could have.

Is this really true? How does their behavior differ that much from horses?

 

[Lemmingwise]

One word; bantu.

The bantus are one of the most retarded ethnicities of humanity. They destroyed the most prosperous empires of Africa with their tribalistic tendencies, have poor ability to plan ahead in comparison to other ethnicities, and its cultural norms are one of lazyness and opportunism. You can still see those norms on modern African Americans, group of which has 80% or so of their lineage tracing to the bantus.

They fucked the entirety of Sub-Saharan Africa, and overall, helped devolve Africa 5,000 years back.

Don't blame black people. They were replaced by the Bantu.

I don't know too much about this, so correct me if I'm wrong. But aren't the Bantu so succesful in spreading because they were more agriculturally focused compared to the groups they competed with and could therefor field more people when it came to blows and otherwise just outpopulated competing groups? As well as having iron tools and weapons to compete generally with stone tools and weapons?

 

[Voltekka]

I don't know too much about this, so correct me if I'm wrong. But aren't the Bantu so succesful in spreading because they were more agriculturally focused compared to the groups they competed with and could therefor field more people when it came to blows and otherwise just outpopulated competing groups? As well as having iron tools and weapons to compete generally with stone tools and weapons?

The fun stuff starts from there. They stole stuff from places they sacked, and used the Genghis Khan method of pillage, rape, and burn to great effect.

 

[Techpriest]

Is this really true? How does their behavior differ that much from horses?

They’re smaller and just as nasty as wild horses, so they’re objectively inferior as beasts of burden. Oh, and they’re even MORE social than horses, so good luck getting a fertile female away from the herd to get breeding populations going. Domesticating horses was honestly the greatest random chance of all time, and humans weren’t competing with lions, leopards, African wild dogs, hyenas, and cheetahs for the same resource in Europe.

 

[Toolbox]

But only after reintroduction by European settlers. The first case of Amerindians actually riding horses was when the Spanish started giving them to Aztecs in the 16th century and they were adopted by North American tribes somewhat later. They were previously present on the continent but went extinct like 15,000 years ago. I can't remember the exact reason I was taught but Wikipedia says they died either due to Climate Change or overexploitation by humans.

Camels were also present in the Americas for quite a long time before going extinct around 13k years ago.

https://eartharchives.org/articles/...nd-in-yukon-redraw-species-lineage/index.html
This species was known as "Camelops" and had diverged from old world camels some 12 million years before that. There were a lot of animals that could've been exploited, it's just that people either got to the areas they were present at the wrong times, or didn't know to breed them and simply killed them off.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

When you're not online, people tend to make things sound nicer because it's a way to signal they themselves are good people. Maybe I did that in that post too, looking back.

I also saw africans on the street, practically bones over skin, nobody giving a fuck, it was almost impossible to get a basic good meal except in the countryside and you had to have armed guards basicly everywhere you slept. They were also vicious to animals of all types. They thought of birds only as things to shoot, adults enjoyed throwing rocks at defenseless dogs and puppies. I'm saying the africans in africa were approachable, happy people. I didn't say they were good people.

That's a good point.

The thing that stands out in my mind about Africans is stories about how in some cultures, mostly East African ones, people will carry mats with them, and when they encounter somebody on the road they'll often lay out their mat and sit down and have a long discussion. I have little use for the custom of asking people how they're doing as an empty greeting (I find it dishonest) and those cultures (if the story is true at all) are like an extreme version of the opposite. Big waste of time, probably, inefficient, but welcome in its contrast to what we know.

 

[Lemmingwise]

That's a good point.

The thing that stands out in my mind about Africans is stories about how in some cultures, mostly East African ones, people will carry mats with them, and when they encounter somebody on the road they'll often lay out their mat and sit down and have a long discussion. I have little use for the custom of asking people how they're doing as an empty greeting (I find it dishonest) and those cultures (if the story is true at all) are like an extreme version of the opposite. Big waste of time, probably, inefficient, but welcome in its contrast to what we know.

Sounds like a noble savage idea. I never saw it happen in Ethiopia, nor even a single "long discussion". People were pretty social, but I saw more activity based things; playing cards, playing football, throwing rocks at dogs. The only long discussions I saw / experienced was with americans, british and other europeans. Of course there is a language barrier, but I think I would have noticed/recognised long discussions between them.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Sounds like a noble savage idea. I never saw it happen in Ethiopia, nor even a single "long discussion". People were pretty social, but I saw more activity based things; playing cards, playing football, throwing rocks at dogs. The only long discussions I saw / experienced was with americans, british and other europeans. Of course there is a language barrier, but I think I would have noticed/recognised long discussions between them.

Think it was some people more in the Kenya/Tanzania area, but you're probably right, probably made up to being with.

 

[Eggplant Wizard]

Water Buffalo are deadly as hell. Domesticating them is out of the question. Heck the sheer number of fauna in the area that has a pre-set “this is how you ruin a human’s life” method packed into their instincts is enough on its own to make settling a chore.

Other than that they didn’t get gunpowder until well after other societies had it, so there was no grand equalizer of force that could be used. Combine that with the fact that the European nations were fighting each other constantly until they finally stopped long enough to try colonizing instead. War always leads to innovation with the tools available, so war involving cannons, guns, fortresses and ships will lead to much larger strides than war with spears, swords, shields and the like.

 

[Techpriest]

Water Buffalo are deadly as hell. Domesticating them is out of the question. Heck the sheer number of fauna in the area that has a pre-set “this is how you ruin a human’s life” method packed into their instincts is enough on its own to make settling a chore.

Other than that they didn’t get gunpowder until well after other societies had it, so there was no grand equalizer of force that could be used. Combine that with the fact that the European nations were fighting each other constantly until they finally stopped long enough to try colonizing instead. War always leads to innovation with the tools available, so war involving cannons, guns, fortresses and ships will lead to much larger strides than war with spears, swords, shields and the like.

Even then the Africans fought like hell for independence. The Zulu weren’t the only ones who fought back.

 

[Toolbox]

Water Buffalo are deadly as hell. Domesticating them is out of the question. Heck the sheer number of fauna in the area that has a pre-set “this is how you ruin a human’s life” method packed into their instincts is enough on its own to make settling a chore.

Other than that they didn’t get gunpowder until well after other societies had it, so there was no grand equalizer of force that could be used. Combine that with the fact that the European nations were fighting each other constantly until they finally stopped long enough to try colonizing instead. War always leads to innovation with the tools available, so war involving cannons, guns, fortresses and ships will lead to much larger strides than war with spears, swords, shields and the like.

Do you really think it's impossible to domesticate any mammal with enough time and dedication? Somehow we got wolves to work with us.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Do you really think it's impossible to domesticate any mammal with enough time and dedication? Somehow we got wolves to work with us.

Central africa has the basenji domesticated dog.

There are also a number of areas in africa where wild dogs seem to have evolved along a similar path as domesticated dogs did (selection for non-aggression towards humans), because it allowed them to smooch off of humans and cower when threatened by humans.

Such is a theory I once read anyways, before I autisticly checked sources.

 

[biozeminadae1]

On a side note did any subsaharan tribes ever got past the stone age? the bronze age? talking pre-contact here

Sahal kingdoms.

Water Buffalo are deadly as hell. Domesticating them is out of the question. Heck the sheer number of fauna in the area that has a pre-set “this is how you ruin a human’s life” method packed into their instincts is enough on its own to make settling a chore.

In 1000 BC, lions existed in Haemus, Anatolia, Caucasus, and the Levant, and Mesopotamia. By Late Antiquity they were fucking extinct. Blacks should have focused more on killing carnivores.

 

[Slap47]

This is mostly true for the americas as well; the selling of older guns.

I do think IQ plays a role that such a strategy was even possible; it certainly didn't or could've worked in China or Japan.

The difference is that it was far more profitable to exploit the existing Chinese state. It was utterly corrupt, and incapable of resisting.

One thing that made Europe great is that it was not dominated by a single state that could become utterly corrupt and incapable. It was dozens, if not hundreds of competing states.

I have experience dealing with Blacks and with Africans. The Africans are like gods, very smart, hard-working, good manners. Better than 99% of the Whites. The Blacks were more varied. It's mostly self-selection, I think, that our African immigrants are the cream of the crop, but even when you hear stories about peasants/tribesmen from Africa they tend to say how welcoming the people are.

In interactions with Blacks in the rural South I've tended to find the young men and old men alike to be very gregarious, friendly, warm, and the same is true of the old women, but young Black women tend to have a very harsh, cold way about them. I think it might be motivated by bitterness because the Black men are all chasing White women and White men don't care for them, generally.

American-Africans are insanely successful despite not arriving rich like other minority groups. The middle-class from countries like Nigeria, Kenya, and Ghana are insanely hard working and respectable.

The exception is Somali-Americans and South-African Americans who have rejected African-American ghetto culture by bringing over their own tribal/gang stuff.

 

[StraightShooter2]

I'm not sure that the OP is true; for that matter, historically Eurasia has not always been at the "top" to begin with. In ancient and Medieval times, other regions such as Arabia and China were at times ahead of the Europeans culturally and technologically.

 

[Techpriest]

I'm not sure that the OP is true; for that matter, historically Eurasia has not always been at the "top" to begin with. In ancient and Medieval times, other regions such as Arabia and China were at times ahead of the Europeans culturally and technologically.

If not for the absolute anarchy happening in India during the 1600’s, I’d have put good money on them industrializing first.

 

[Schway]

They’re smaller and just as nasty as wild horses, so they’re objectively inferior as beasts of burden. Oh, and they’re even MORE social than horses, so good luck getting a fertile female away from the herd to get breeding populations going. Domesticating horses was honestly the greatest random chance of all time, and humans weren’t competing with lions, leopards, African wild dogs, hyenas, and cheetahs for the same resource in Europe.

Observe, the impossible made possible:


Zebras can be domesticated just fine. If the argument is that they're worse than horses than yeah, an animal that's been selectively breed for riding and drafting is better at riding and drafting than an animal that wasn't, big whoop.

Here's the Przewalski's horse, the exact genetic details are not clear on whether it had been domesticated for a short while and then went feral again or never domesticated but they almost certainly represent a closer image to what the ancestral horse looked like than the modern horse does:



Looks like a zebra doesn't it? The coloring made to blend in especially, in fact it's now thought that coats of the modern horse were bred to be more uniform so to make it easier to spot in the field (Or because humans thought it was nicer). It's very likely the non-domesticated horse had stripes and other more zebra-ish patterns over it.

You can see from this that the non-domesticated horse was likely pretty similar to the non-domesticated zebra, yet someone had to start domesticating them and keep it up long enough for the selection to kick in. Zebras aren't magical undomesticable animals, and likely they are not any more difficult to handle than the ancient horse.

You'll have to look somewhere else for a reason Africans didn't domesticate Zebras.

 

[Eggplant Wizard]

Do you really think it's impossible to domesticate any mammal with enough time and dedication? Somehow we got wolves to work with us.

Observe, the impossible made possible:
View attachment 2057608View attachment 2057611View attachment 2057612

Zebras can be domesticated just fine. If the argument is that they're worse than horses than yeah, an animal that's been selectively breed for riding and drafting is better at riding and drafting than an animal that wasn't, big whoop.

Here's the Przewalski's horse, the exact genetic details are not clear on whether it had been domesticated for a short while and then went feral again or never domesticated but they almost certainly represent a closer image to what the ancestral horse looked like than the modern horse does:

View attachment 2057647

Looks like a zebra doesn't it? The coloring made to blend in especially, in fact it's now thought that coats of the modern horse were bred to be more uniform so to make it easier to spot in the field (Or because humans thought it was nicer). It's very likely the non-domesticated horse had stripes and other more zebra-ish patterns over it.

You can see from this that the non-domesticated horse was likely pretty similar to the non-domesticated zebra, yet someone had to start domesticating them and keep it up long enough for the selection to kick in. Zebras aren't magical undomesticable animals, and likely they are not any more difficult to handle than the ancient horse.

You'll have to look somewhere else for a reason Africans didn't domesticate Zebras.

It is possible, but you need both the infrastructure to keep them fed, the ability to pull animals away from the pack, and keep them with you until you can domesticate them and the ability to defend your new collection of tasty treats from predators. Europeans in those photos had guns, construction knowledge, and supply lines. Therefore they could easily fill those requirements.

That is why wolves were easy to domesticate. They eat meat scraps we don’t want, they will stick around us because we are now “food dispenser of the gods”, ignoring their former pack maybe bringing a few extra friends even, and when it is time to throw down, they’ll fight alongside us. Wolves were already suited for the pack tactics that humanity was already using and feeding them was and still is easy. Herd animals like zebras…you need auxiliary things that literally may not cross your mind depending on your situation.