Serious LGBT Discussion

[Noir drag freak]

Masculinity isn't just being devalued, its being outright attacked. Its considered "toxic" now. Men don't know how to be masculine because they are taught that being masculine is wrong, or "evil". That masculinity is dangerous. That men are dangerous. That they are all violent, wannabe rapists that oppress women and (if their white) minorities just by existing. In that environment, how many real men do you think would continue to carry the standard of masculinity. Add in the epidemic of fatherless homes, leading to a generation of men who are being raised by women who literally cannot teach them how to be men, and you've got one huge recipe for disaster.

One thing I noticed is that people are always going on about masculinity and that it's in peril. When people talk about masculinity in those tones, I feel a sick.. Maybe because I am non-white, effeminate, and gay that means I'm used to being demonized. But being demonized doesn't stop me. So what is stopping these young men from perusing their masculine ideal? I don't want to sounded like a SJW. But what I getting from these statements is that people want masculinity to praised. Fair Enough.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Its generally forum etiquette not to multipost in the same thread if you can help it, but to engage with responses if necessary

 

[Alkaline Cab]

Nonbinary is an unnecessary designation.
Who cares if your a feminine male? Anyone who thinks your a fag, would still think your a fag! Something something regression of gender roles
It screams as a desperate attempt of attention and/or validation, especially because these people (and trannies) tend to have social/mental problems. And its noncommittal - if by design - meaning you can just go back after a month of telling everyone about your new pronouns.
It's really the mental part that gets to me; you aren't allowed to criticize any of them because of muh 41% (and muh oppression).
It's also pretty hard because you shouldn't jump on "regular" depressed folk for attention seeking; but unlike them, nonbinaries are trying to advance politically

 

[Wallace]

I was flipping through the "friends who'd trooned out" thread and I noticed that every single person who becomes a troon is worse off for it. More anxious, more depressed, more emotionally unbalanced, and less happy. The troon cult would probably ascribe this to a lack of support, or maybe its just the toupee effect, but does anyone know of someone who has become legitimately happier or more stable after trooning out and stayed that way? I think there may be short honeymoon periods for certain events like surgery, but they seem to wear off pretty quick.

 

[Noir drag freak]

Nonbinary is an unnecessary designation.
Who cares if your a feminine male? Anyone who thinks your a fag, would still think your a fag! Something something regression of gender roles
It screams as a desperate attempt of attention and/or validation, especially because these people (and trannies) tend to have social/mental problems. And its noncommittal - if by design - meaning you can just go back after a month of telling everyone about your new pronouns.
It's really the mental part that gets to me; you aren't allowed to criticize any of them because of muh 41% (and muh oppression).
It's also pretty hard because you shouldn't jump on "regular" depressed folk for attention seeking; but unlike them, nonbinaries are trying to advance politically

It's complicated because in this culture, people are branded products. People have pronouns because it's makes them easier to stand out from the competition. And an easy diversity point from your resume. So while some of it's from attention, some of it is for survival.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

but does anyone know of someone who has become legitimately happier or more stable after trooning out and stayed that way?

I have a friend who (MtF) trooned out in the 90s and seems better off for it, or at least theyre a well enough adjusted person and not a complete psycho. I suspect your spot on with current trooning out trends, because everyone I know and see who troons out today is neurotic as hell. I think the difference might be that this was less of a social contagion in the 90s than it is today, and people who trooned out then had to go through actual hoops and hurdles to get there, so you can be pretty sure that they had legitimate reasons for doing so.

 

[Shovel Mech Pilot]

but does anyone know of someone who has become legitimately happier or more stable after trooning out and stayed that way? I think there may be short honeymoon periods for certain events like surgery, but they seem to wear off pretty quick.

I do, but they're older. The problem with Gen Z transitioners (and to some extent, younger millenial transitioners) is that any talk of detransitioning or desisting is considered so "counter-revolutionary" that a lot of these younger trans people refuse to even think about it. If you have doubts, the only cure is to jump further into transitioning or adopt insane wishful thinking (like HRT is somehow going to make your shoulders less broad, or crazy thoughts like that). This makes for a lot of unhappy trans people. In the past, these individuals would have stopped early on or perhaps never started. So there's a bit of selection bias there.

It also doesn't help that the most insecure trans people will make it everyone else's problem in an attempt to get the validation and reassurance they crave. This only recently became socially acceptable in some circles, so people just didn't do it in the past. That means you're only hearing the loudest voices. A trans woman who transitioned ten years ago and maybe doesn't completely pass but keeps to herself on a daily basis and doesn't scream about MOUTHFEEL is not going to pop up on your radar. It's unlikely you would even notice them.

 

[Real Gay Autist]

Unpopular opinion amongst the Born This Way™ crowd, but I hate how I can't examine the psychological origins of homosexuality without being labelled as self-hating (I know I'm self-hating but it doesn't mean we can't have this conversation). I think Freud wasn't far off in his idea that homosexuality is basically an inversion of healthy sexuality caused by events during childhood, viz.

"The autoerotic phase partially persists and object cathexis is partially accomplished, but on a narcissistic level. As a consequence, the individual seeks a love object representing himself and, therefore, necessarily having to possess the male genital. The individual is thus sexually involved with himself and his own genital in the form of another male who symbolizes himself." (Bieber et al. 1998: 5, on Freud)

Viewing homosexuality as a narcissistic inversion can be a heuristic for explaining a lot of personality features in gay men, dynamics in gay sex, dynamics in gay relationships, as well as certain aspects of gay culture. For instance, why the hell do so many gay couples look alike? Why are incest fantasies so prevalent? Why are gays so fascinated by cock and cock-worship? Why is gay culture so heavily invested in the construction and maintenance of personas? Why are gay guys so fixated on their own sexuality and identity?

This kind of development is especially likely as a result of an overly intimate relationship with the mother, according to a large study by Bieber et al. Btw, if you haven't heard of it, Bieber et al.'s study of homosexuality is really illuminating. Of course it's practically a banned book nowadays. LibGen link here. It's somewhat old-fashioned methodologically and theoretically but unfortunately we're unlikely to see an updated study of such depth, given the political climate around this topic.

TL;DR being a fag is a narcissistic inversion of healthy sexual development

 

[panic mode]

Nonbinary is an unnecessary designation.
Who cares if your a feminine male? Anyone who thinks your a fag, would still think your a fag! Something something regression of gender roles
It screams as a desperate attempt of attention and/or validation, especially because these people (and trannies) tend to have social/mental problems. And its noncommittal - if by design - meaning you can just go back after a month of telling everyone about your new pronouns.
It's really the mental part that gets to me; you aren't allowed to criticize any of them because of muh 41% (and muh oppression).
It's also pretty hard because you shouldn't jump on "regular" depressed folk for attention seeking; but unlike them, nonbinaries are trying to advance politically

This applies to anyone under the Trans umbrella. NB is under that umbrella. It's literally an attention seeking thing. "Look at me, I am different."


Motherfuckers have no personality to reel in people so they jump on the LGBT bandwagon.
I've had homies who were trans and end up regretting their transition because "they went through a phase lmao"

 

[Enjoy_the_Soylence]

Wasn't the invert theory about being the other sex? (the origins of troonism, basically). I never thought much of Freud (the childhood psychosexual stuff), though I haven't read all of it. I think same-sex attraction is almost always an attraction to similarity, sameness, affinity of bodies and minds (which can lead to Myth of Narcissus stuff) as opposed to heterosexuality, which is an attraction to differences & the Other.

 

[Mesh Gear Fox]

I don't agree with Freud's opinion on this. I had a perfectly normal childhood, nothing traumatic happened to me that caused me to seek out dick. I think it's just something that happens for some unknown reason to a segment of the population. Like a random mutation kind of thing.

 

[Mnutu]

One thing I noticed is that people are always going on about masculinity and that it's in peril. When people talk about masculinity in those tones, I feel a sick.. Maybe because I am non-white, effeminate, and gay that means I'm used to being demonized. But being demonized doesn't stop me. So what is stopping these young men from perusing their masculine ideal? I don't want to sounded like a SJW. But what I getting from these statements is that people want masculinity to praised. Fair Enough.

Part of masculinity is that it requires a group to really express itself. If there is no group that can allow those traits to exist, or one that is entirely unconcerned in what happens to the man himself, going so far as to undermine him and burn him, the man either breaks or leaves. That’s the real issue. A man without a home isn’t complete, and most guys understand that to a certain extent.

 

[Noir drag freak]

Unpopular opinion amongst the Born This Way™ crowd, but I hate how I can't examine the psychological origins of homosexuality without being labelled as self-hating (I know I'm self-hating but it doesn't mean we can't have this conversation). I think Freud wasn't far off in his idea that homosexuality is basically an inversion of healthy sexuality caused by events during childhood, viz.

"The autoerotic phase partially persists and object cathexis is partially accomplished, but on a narcissistic level. As a consequence, the individual seeks a love object representing himself and, therefore, necessarily having to possess the male genital. The individual is thus sexually involved with himself and his own genital in the form of another male who symbolizes himself." (Bieber et al. 1998: 5, on Freud)

Viewing homosexuality as a narcissistic inversion can be a heuristic for explaining a lot of personality features in gay men, dynamics in gay sex, dynamics in gay relationships, as well as certain aspects of gay culture. For instance, why the hell do so many gay couples look alike? Why are incest fantasies so prevalent? Why are gays so fascinated by cock and cock-worship? Why is gay culture so heavily invested in the construction and maintenance of personas? Why are gay guys so fixated on their own sexuality and identity?

This kind of development is especially likely as a result of an overly intimate relationship with the mother, according to a large study by Bieber et al. Btw, if you haven't heard of it, Bieber et al.'s study of homosexuality is really illuminating. Of course it's practically a banned book nowadays. LibGen link here. It's somewhat old-fashioned methodologically and theoretically but unfortunately we're unlikely to see an updated study of such depth, given the political climate around this topic.

TL;DR being a fag is a narcissistic inversion of healthy sexual development

=
While I don't think I was born gay, I find that most of the theories about homosexuality are very stereotypical in terms of gender norms. That's part of the reason why ex-gay therapy makes me cringe. I shouldn't have to feel like a masculine man to be straight. That's sorta of why I love it when I see effeminate men with wives whom they love. I am not one for smashing the patriarchy or challenging gender norms to make a political statement. Though, I do think that some gay men have a very intimate relationship with their mothers. But it's all contextual. I think that if a woman dates lower on the soicioeconomic scale, her child could end up as a LGBT. Such as the case of Yukio Mishima.

Viewing homosexuality as a narcissistic inversion can be a heuristic for explaining a lot of personality features in gay men, dynamics in gay sex, dynamics in gay relationships, as well as certain aspects of gay culture. For instance, why the hell do so many gay couples look alike? Why are incest fantasies so prevalent? Why are gays so fascinated by cock and cock-worship? Why is gay culture so heavily invested in the construction and maintenance of personas? Why are gay guys so fixated on their own sexuality and identity?

Most of the stuff you're saying is subjective. For example, most straight couples look alike too. It's more pronounce in same sex couples, because they're the same sex. For me, I'm fixated on my sexuality and identity because I'm curious as to why I experience same sex attraction. But I don't tell everyone that I meet I am gay.

Part of masculinity is that it requires a group to really express itself. If there is no group that can allow those traits to exist, or one that is entirely unconcerned in what happens to the man himself, going so far as to undermine him and burn him, the man either breaks or leaves. That’s the real issue. A man without a home isn’t complete, and most guys understand that to a certain extent.

This is a why I like femininity. Femininity is like water or the air. It's able to adapt. While masculinity is like a fire that needs to consume or rock that can break you. Could the reason be that women will always have a chance at reproduction while men aren't as likely to? Women's higher chance of reproduction could allow for their psyche to be more fluid and adaptable to any situation than men's? I don't think that men should try to be mincing queens or apologetic for being men. But I think that men should probably learn to be more adaptable if possible.

 

[Mnutu]

This is a why I like femininity. Femininity is like water or the air. It's able to adapt. While masculinity is like a fire that needs to consume or rock that can break you. Could the reason be that women will always have a chance at reproduction while men aren't as likely to? Women's higher chance of reproduction could allow for their psyche to be more fluid and adaptable to any situation than men's? I don't think that men should try to be mincing queens or apologetic for being men. But I think that men should probably learn to be more adaptable if possible.

I take the more dualistic approach where there’s a little yin in yang and yang in yin. Most guys have a feminine side, it just takes different forms. The problem with the culture I set out is that it disrupts the balance and throws the average person out of their normal behavior. In this instance, it neutralizes the more dominant masculine side and allows their feminine side to take over. In men, this typically expresses itself as passivity, wild violence, and extreme independence.

Women suffer as much as well, when their masculine side takes over and they become much more dominant, overbearing, and controlling. Both of these expressions have their uses, but they shouldn’t be seen as the ideal balance. Only when situations arise that require that imbalance to occur to achieve balance.

 

[Dr. Sexbot]

So how do all you "gays want to be the girl on some level" faggots explain Bears & Chasers?

 

[Kornula]

So how do all you "gays want to be the girl on some level" faggots explain Bears & Chasers?

I don't get this one either.

 

[Real Gay Autist]

So how do all you "gays want to be the girl on some level" faggots explain Bears & Chasers?

Yes, you're right: "gays want to be the girl on some level" is a dumb idea.

There is a straightforward way of explaining Bears etc. as the fetishization of masculinity. This also explains why Bears are such hyper-masculine caricatures and why their sexual practices are associated with symbolic masculinity. Just think about how the Bear scene is saturated with the fetishization of dressing in leather/construction outfits/jeans, scenting, sweating, 'fucking like real men', muscle, strength, body hair, etc. Very few men (straight or gay) are so heavily invested in performative masculinity and its sexualization. The question is, why?

Of course there are many answers to that question but I'll give one by way of illustration. Some psychonanalysts might see one of the 'causes' of what some gay guys are into sexually as the eroticization of the distant, unattainable or feared object (usually the father or similar). To give a basic and highly generalized example, you might have a boy who grows up with a bit of a rocky relationship with his father - not a big deal, this is common in both homo- and heterosexuals. However, what might produce homosexual desire in this case is the boy's psyche resolving some of the pain of that relationship by eroticizing certain features of the father (his strong, hairy hands and arms which have the potential both to hold and hurt him; his workboots which signal his presence or absence; his smell which signals his closeness or distance). This is normal fetishization; happens to all of us. The difference here is only that it's homosexual in orientation.

The later manifestation of this fetishization can be various, cathected onto self ('Being hyper masculine turns me on' = Bear) or other ('I'm into hyper masculine guys' = Chaser) or both (Bear + Bear). Obviously it is much more complicated than this, especially at the level of individual psychology. It can also involve compensatory behaviours for a perceived lack of masculinity ('I feel weak so I perform being strong') or ego-dystonic sexual desires (e.g. 'I want things up my ass but that is bad; I want to put things up other guys' asses instead'), control ('I want to control other men to manage difficult childhood feelings about men/father being out of my control') etc. The key thing also is that this process happens in people who end up gay and straight (and everything else), just the direction of desire is different.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

It also doesn't help that the most insecure trans people will make it everyone else's problem in an attempt to get the validation and reassurance they crave. This only recently became socially acceptable in some circles, so people just didn't do it in the past. That means you're only hearing the loudest voices. A trans woman who transitioned ten years ago and maybe doesn't completely pass but keeps to herself on a daily basis and doesn't scream about MOUTHFEEL is not going to pop up on your radar. It's unlikely you would even notice them.

The thing as well is the need for validation just makes it even worse, if a transwoman had broad shoulders, kept to themselves, didnt scream about how oppressive it was 24/7, I probably wouldn't give much of a fuck and might notice for a second, but likely forget about it.

The fact that so many of these people scream about their imperfections, bring attention to them with "normalize women with adam apples", etc, yeah, of course I'm going to notice now? Its like these people don't realize theyre just digging their own grave even deeper, and theyre bringing more attention to their imperfections by constantly yelling about them. People with skin that isn't paper thing don't do that.

 

[Shovel Mech Pilot]

For instance, why the hell do so many gay couples look alike? Why are incest fantasies so prevalent? Why are gays so fascinated by cock and cock-worship? Why is gay culture so heavily invested in the construction and maintenance of personas? Why are gay guys so fixated on their own sexuality and identity?

The problem with this line of reasoning is that straight people are the exact same way. A lot of straight couples look so similar that there's a "dating or siblings" game that people play on social media. I think it's an evolutionary thing, most people tend to gravitate to those similar to themselves. Straight men are obviously fascinated by pussy and there's a huge community of straight guys who want a woman to sit on their face. Straight people also develop personas, big time. And last but not least, can anyone say that straight people are not fixated on sexuality?

I get where you're coming from but this can equally be applied to hetero people.

 

[Real Gay Autist]

The problem with this line of reasoning is that straight people are the exact same way. A lot of straight couples look so similar that there's a "dating or siblings" game that people play on social media. I think it's an evolutionary thing, most people tend to gravitate to those similar to themselves. Straight men are obviously fascinated by pussy and there's a huge community of straight guys who want a woman to sit on their face. Straight people also develop personas, big time. And last but not least, can anyone say that straight people are not fixated on sexuality?

I get where you're coming from but this can equally be applied to hetero people.

Actually I agree with you totally. Looking back at my post, it wasn't expressed clearly. My point is that when we see straight couples who are "dating or siblings", it's permissible and even funny to investigate the origins of their attraction style. This can be in contexts from poking fun to therapy. If you try to address homosexual attraction in the same way you run into problems very quickly, because now you're trying to 'reduce' homosexuality to a psychological disorder or something. I'm not going full-on conversion therapy here, but at least use the same standards when you look at sexual attraction and behavior (whether it's hetero, homo, bi, furry, whatever).

When I talk to hardcore Born This Way types, I usually cheekily ask whether it isn't homophobic to presume that gay people don't get to have the same psychological complexity when it comes to their pattern of attraction. Apparently we're supposed to believe a baby boy pops out of the womb genetically-programed to start craving cock.