Tabletop Community Watch

[EnemyStand]

Games Workshop themselves are also to blame for it. These lore videos don't spawn out of thin air, their creators read that shit somewhere else and then sum it up and spew it out onto youtube. Even before the current crop of derptastic lore like the Primaris Marines and the Imperium Nihilus, GW had been treating the lore like complete "srs bsns". for a long time. I started following 40K in 2001 (no money or patience to assemble and paint plastic crack, but I've always kept up with the rules) and back then Black Library was still releasing its first books. 20 years later and they've got what? 200? 300 books released? That's a lot of canonical sperging for a game about Your Dudes fighting someone else's Your Dudes for completely arbitrary reasons.

40K is old and crumbling under the weight of all the shit piled on top of it over the years. The lorehammer fans who have never rolled a d6 in their lives are just a symptom of it.

You make a salient point. I'm just glad the autists that "just love 40K!" never discover Blood Bowl. Gee Dubs didn't fuck that one up too much with the new ruleset. Guess the fedore-tippers who hate sports don't see the appeal. Good.

 

[UnsufficentBoobage]

the lore facilitates the game and gives you a jumping off point towards making your own stories through the wargame. Hell, the Dawn of War games made their own chapters and warbands. Then a bunch of normies showed up and suddenly the Lore is this serious, canonical thing because they don't get the Your Dudes mentality

I am being dumb and offtopical, but this seems like literally every moden newfag problem.

I know because of being MLP pre-FIM era fan, everybody had their own names/genders/relationships/whatever on their horses, and it was understood as normal

 

[Judge Dredd]

40k and Warhammer Fantasy has gotten ALOT of lore only fans due to the increase of "Lore" videos on youtube. I would say maybe 6/10 self proclaimed Warhammer fans online will mostly say the hobby is too expensive but say they love the lore. I hate sounding like a turbofag but it has slightly gotten on my nerves how this modern community acts maybe I have just became bored with the memes but frankly even when I was a guy who just played DoW and read the books I never acted this bad with memes.

Some may disagree but the best way to gatekeep Warhammer is make sure a good AAA video game is never made, and delete all lore videos BAM 40k is gatekept. Go back to the days when the only 40k videos were scattered model videos, random DoW clips, and art slide shows with metal music. The sheer size of the lore actually gatekept people but now they can easily listen to whatever they want. Look at Age of Sigmar most of the people who like the setting typical paint/play the models mostly since the lore is not vast like Fantasy or 40k but also since it hasn't gotten a critically acclaimed video game. No one cared about Fantasy Battles till Total War and look at it now its more popular than before it died.

Strongly disagree there.

Source: I've been "playing" on and off since second edition, albeit with years in between me jumping back in.

I put playing in quotes because the recurring problem that kept me out of the hobby wasn't the lore, but the smug elitism of the community. When I played Tau shortly after Dawn of War Dark Crusade came out, I never got them to the table*. Why? There was always some excuse. "They're too easy to beat." "The lore isn't grimdark enough." "It's weeb shit!", and so on. Other times, I'd schedule games, and my opponent simply wouldn't turn up.

The only thing the lore videos did was remove the mystery, and the jokes that went with them. Back then, only people who read the Dark Angels codex knew what their dark secret was. There was a joke going around was the secret was they were all gay.

*The only time I got my Tau on the table was at a neighbours house, and the guy was the worst kind of cheat.

40K is old and crumbling under the weight of all the shit piled on top of it over the years. The lorehammer fans who have never rolled a d6 in their lives are just a symptom of it.

I think this is a problem with many games. DnD and MechWarrior spring to mind (Superhero comics aren't games, but it applies to them as well).

The lore exists (at first) as an excuse where infinite tactical skirmish games can take place. I get they move the world forwards to justify new products, but they gain so much baggage that at some point they might as well start over.

I think this is why I like Starfinder and Eberron as settings. Starfinder is fairly new so isn't crushed under decades of lore, and Eberron is static by design.

Also a sidenote but this might just be my autism speaking but the sheer amount of lore videos popping up on youtube for other franchises is simply astounding.

Destiny had to be the most strange to me. The lore wasn't in the game, it was all in a companion website, so lore channels made sense. In the sequel, they put the story in the game, and lore channels were pissed, complaining that the devs were going to kill their channels. Even though the channels only existed because of a flaw in the game.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I think this is a problem with many games. DnD and MechWarrior spring to mind (Superhero comics aren't games, but it applies to them as well).

The lore exists (at first) as an excuse where infinite tactical skirmish games can take place. I get they move the world forwards to justify new products, but they gain so much baggage that at some point they might as well start over.

I think this is why I like Starfinder and Eberron as settings. Starfinder is fairly new so isn't crushed under decades of lore, and Eberron is static by design.

That's an intractable problem, unfortunately.

If you don't release new content (and lore to go along with it), interest in the game drops off and it dies, or it becomes unprofitable as the players get all the content that's relevant to them and stop buying the product. The product's tail becomes too short.

But if you do release new content periodically to keep the customers engaged, you will inevitably reach a saturation point for the product line one day. The obvious solution is to reboot game settings every X years and start anew, but the Age of Sigmar fiasco has pretty much guaranteed no one is going to try another reboot for at least another 20 years.

 

[Steinercard]

Great idea. There’s a lot of fun to be had with light rules.
The more rules there are, the less intuitive the game is.
I bought Dark Heresy sight unseen, expecting WFRP in space, and instead got three pounds of rules. Never bothered trying to run a game as a result.
Rules get in the way of play, IMO.

Dark Heresy is one of my favourite games for properly representing the lethality of 40k. It actually is WFRP in space. You will die. A lot. And you're just a normal person trying to survive in this world of horrifying and overpowered monsters. Just like in WFRP. Also the 8 pages of critical hits tables would've scared me off any other game, but the book goes out of it's way to describe in increasingly gruesome detail what each roll does to a man and with what type of weapon you used to do it. My old group always got a chuckle out of rolling on that table. Especially the Warp Mishap table.

 

[Steinercard]

40k and Warhammer Fantasy has gotten ALOT of lore only fans due to the increase of "Lore" videos on youtube. I would say maybe 6/10 self proclaimed Warhammer fans online will mostly say the hobby is too expensive but say they love the lore. I hate sounding like a turbofag but it has slightly gotten on my nerves how this modern community acts maybe I have just became bored with the memes but frankly even when I was a guy who just played DoW and read the books I never acted this bad with memes.

Some may disagree but the best way to gatekeep Warhammer is make sure a good AAA video game is never made, and delete all lore videos BAM 40k is gatekept. Go back to the days when the only 40k videos were scattered model videos, random DoW clips, and art slide shows with metal music. The sheer size of the lore actually gatekept people but now they can easily listen to whatever they want. Look at Age of Sigmar most of the people who like the setting typical paint/play the models mostly since the lore is not vast like Fantasy or 40k but also since it hasn't gotten a critically acclaimed video game. No one cared about Fantasy Battles till Total War and look at it now its more popular than before it died.

Also a sidenote but this might just be my autism speaking but the sheer amount of lore videos popping up on youtube for other franchises is simply astounding. I know people defend it with "oh its like an audio book" or "I dont have time to read" but I dunno it just kinda irks me the wrong way maybe just the way book reading is going I guess.

No, I don't think you're a turbofag at all. A lot of it is that the people who are there for the game just want to play the damn game. Not deal with all these faggots (sometimes literally) trying to make a statement. It got worse with these lore videos, because a lot of them miss the point that the lore facilitates the game and gives you a jumping off point towards making your own stories through the wargame. Hell, the Dawn of War games made their own chapters and warbands. Then a bunch of normies showed up and suddenly the Lore is this serious, canonical thing because they don't get the Your Dudes mentality.

One of the reasons 40k was so impenetrable to idpol for so long was that the lore was vast, contradictory and hard to understand and then you also had the game itself. I can completely understand not being able to afford the game before the advent of resin printers but nowadays it's so easy to get into Warhammer. Either print your minis or use Tabletop simulator for games. ANYONE can play now. Which I really can't object to on it's own. I don't mind so long as you participate in the hobby. But Gatekeeping is necessary to keep out the faggots and troons. I hate lore faggots who refuse to PLAY the game. Because the people who play the game have to put up with and be put up with by other people. So they can't be obnoxious wokeies.

 

[SITHRAK!]

It actually is WFRP in space.

Depends which WFRP you're talking about.
I'm referencing the original 1986 edition, not the faggy over-written FFG version.
When it comes to writing far more 'rules' than are needed, FFG are one of the worst culprits.
If I want eight pages of crit tables I still have my old copy of Iron Crown Enterprises' 'Middle Earth Roleplay' floating around somewhere.

I hate lore faggots who refuse to PLAY the game.

I drink to your health, sir. 40k lorefaggots are actually harming 40k IMHO.

Age of Sigmar fiasco

WHFB was basically dead in the water. Space Marines were outselling the entire WHFB line. Rank and Flank is pretty much dead (although there are a few games that are trying to keep it alive). 'Fiasco' may be too strong a word although I keep hearing about a Rank and Flank WHFB coming back. Wait and see I guess. All I can say is that my FLWHS has gone from basically pure 40k to about 40% AoS.

You want to talk about fiascos, let's talk about the Fallout or Star Wars TTWG 's. Holy shit they were stillborn.
Meanwhile pretty much everyone who's not a pimply teen git at my local club is playing Bolt Action and/or SAGA.

 

[Slowboat to China]

I find the lore videos helpful as an introduction to certain things. And they're fun to listen to while painting minis ... or hell, while working. Arch's Siege of Vraks series got me through a lot of immensely dull editing at the day job.

Perhaps a distinction ought to be made between the Warhammer fandom and the Warhammer tabletop community?

 

[Creepuscular]

I only read lore, but I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my Sphess Marines faaaaacist.

Also, Sandy Mitchell is the tits.

 

[Flaming Insignias]

I only read lore, but I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my Sphess Marines faaaaacist.

Also, Sandy Mitchell is the tits.

Yeah, I understand why people get mad at “I read a few 1d4chan articles and now I want to completely change the hobby” fans, but plastic crack really is expensive and sometimes complicated. Sometimes you just love the lore, even if you can’t do the crunch.

 

[Judge Dredd]

That's an intractable problem, unfortunately.

If you don't release new content (and lore to go along with it), interest in the game drops off and it dies, or it becomes unprofitable as the players get all the content that's relevant to them and stop buying the product. The product's tail becomes too short.

But if you do release new content periodically to keep the customers engaged, you will inevitably reach a saturation point for the product line one day. The obvious solution is to reboot game settings every X years and start anew, but the Age of Sigmar fiasco has pretty much guaranteed no one is going to try another reboot for at least another 20 years.

I think it can be fixed, or at least fixed as reasonably as possible on the internet.

New Products
The Tau is the only faction in 40k I can think of that doesn't have a new products problem, and that's because part of the lore is they're constantly making new tech. The problem with a lot of settings is they have you using ancient equipment. This works great until you introduce "new" stuff that raises the question of why this wasn't used earlier.

So first part of the solution. Have new tech be part of the setting.

Great Reset
Like you said, eventually the setting will become overly bloated. I see 2 solutions.

One solution is to have an end state built in. I think the reason Warhammer Fantasy gained popularity after it's death was because the end times were by far the most interesting thing to happen in what was otherwise a fairly generic setting. Comics nerds won't shut up about Crisis on Infinite Earths for a similar reason. Having a planned end state for the setting means people aren't going to be pissed when it's over.

The other is to have the canon be local, and isolated if possible. "Here's what's going on over here, with these guys." and when that's used up, you can say "meanwhile, over here" and thus old timers don't have to give up their old stuff, but newbies don't need to know all the lore because these guys had no connection to the previous guys. It also means you never have to upset your old fans, you can slowly shift focus. They'll still sperg on the internet about it (just look at all the DnD fans who won't shut up about Dark Sun), but most of those can be safely ignored.

That requires restraint, which these companies have shown they don't have. I think 40k could have gone that rout, but last time I was looking into 40k the fans were excited because GW hinted that The Emperor was going to wake up soon. I don't know if that happened.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

I think it can be fixed, or at least fixed as reasonably as possible on the internet.

New Products
The Tau is the only faction in 40k I can think of that doesn't have a new products problem, and that's because part of the lore is they're constantly making new tech. The problem with a lot of settings is they have you using ancient equipment. This works great until you introduce "new" stuff that raises the question of why this wasn't used earlier.

So first part of the solution. Have new tech be part of the setting.

Necrons have gotten away with this by handwaving it as 'digging out mothballed equipment and firing it up again'. Since they're coming off a sixty million year snooze, that's at least plausible.

 

[Flaming Insignias]

Necrons have gotten away with this by handwaving it as 'digging out mothballed equipment and firing it up again'. Since they're coming off a sixty million year snooze, that's at least plausible.

The Imperial factions also tries to justify new equipment through the STC system. Whenever GDubs introduces new shit for the Imperium, they can reasonably argue that this new model is based on recently recovered blueprints. The Mechanicus hates innovating existing tech, but they will usually build new units of old stuff if they get the STC.

 

[iceteayo]

The Imperial factions also tries to justify new equipment through the STC system. Whenever GDubs introduces new shit for the Imperium, they can reasonably argue that this new model is based on recently recovered blueprints. The Mechanicus hates innovating existing tech, but they will usually build new units of old stuff if they get the STC.

The problem is something like primaris is introduced and people are still split on them. I still stand by the marine releases before primaris sucked ass. You can only say “It was an STC” for so long.

I understand the lore is not the best around why are a thing but GW always treats models first lore/rules second.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Necrons have gotten away with this by handwaving it as 'digging out mothballed equipment and firing it up again'. Since they're coming off a sixty million year snooze, that's at least plausible.

Necrons also get away with it (I assume) because their backstory isn't as fleshed out and detailed. There aren't novels and entire sub factions to worry about, so you don't have plot holes or contradictions to worry about.

 

[Wallace]

Lets' check in on how the Fat Self Care Kickstarter is going. I'm sure Aven is hard at work to meet her ambitious timetable.

 

[ThatDumbPhilosopher]

Then there are those who look at 40K as MemeHammer.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

Lets' check in on how the Fat Self Care Kickstarter is going. I'm sure Aven is hard at work to meet her ambitious timetable.

View attachment 2138570

"I have a project to work on, hence why I have chosen to adopt an animal rather than focus on my work responsibilities. Expect to see a photo of it every time I miss a deadline."

 

[Spangled Drongo]

Keep meaning to reply here but the thread made my browser shit itself, but the Warp Time Radio hosts are aware they’ve been posted here.

At least she was kind enough to not say who did it, but someone’s mad. How do you avoid getting your tranny nudes spread around? Don’t post them, simple.

 

[ThatDumbPhilosopher]

Keep meaning to reply here but the thread made my browser shit itself, but the Warp Time Radio hosts are aware they’ve been posted here.View attachment 2160978

At least she was kind enough to not say who did it, but someone’s mad. How do you avoid getting your tranny nudes spread around? Don’t post them, simple.

You know how it is with tranny : They chase recognition endlessly yet always fail spectacularly.