Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

I actually thought about this last night. The shared universe of thousands of characters chugging along is a great concept, but how do you handle passing of the torch? In the case of Spiderman we could say that Peter retires at 30 to run off with MJ and live a happy life he unquestionably deserves and appoints Miles Morales as a successor, but would a guy like Peter be able to sit around and "do nothing" while some world threatening event is happening? Of course not, he's a hero.
PP going in and out of costume because he cannot stop makes for great stories too for many years to come.
You have Miles being successor/tutor/adopted son and you can have special issues where PP dons the Spider-Man suit. Then you have all the usual student/teacher storylines.
You can also have Peter get a job by Stark or start a startup and has to keep his company and employees protected. Plus, every time he wears the suit MJ gets pissed at him.

And you still have monthlies with Miles and, if he does not catch, you get PP lose everything and get back to being SM.
I believe JQ was just pissed Ultimate was better received than the main title and wanted to get young PP back to 616...
 
PP going in and out of costume because he cannot stop makes for great stories too for many years to come.
You have Miles being successor/tutor/adopted son and you can have special issues where PP dons the Spider-Man suit. Then you have all the usual student/teacher storylines.
You can also have Peter get a job by Stark or start a startup and has to keep his company and employees protected. Plus, every time he wears the suit MJ gets pissed at him.

And you still have monthlies with Miles and, if he does not catch, you get PP lose everything and get back to being SM.
I believe JQ was just pissed Ultimate was better received than the main title and wanted to get young PP back to 616...
I never had a problem with Quesada wanting to end the Parker/Watson marriage. I think it was a mistake to begin with. It was the jump the shark moment when you give the character and the audience what they wanted and don't know where to go from there.

Mary-Jane was an interesting character before she married Peter. She was a coked out promiscuous party girl (Read the comics before she suddenly knew he was Spidey all along. It's all there if you're looking.) who truly loved our hero and he loved her too in his own way. Peter was the nice guy but with his head on a swivel when it came to the ladies. He loved MJ but she was a bit of a hot mess to be honest and they'd never be able to make it work long term. So he was banging Black Cat and some hot civilian chicks when the opportunity presented. They were both smart as whips and good people despite their faults.

Then Pete asked Lindsay Lohan MaryJane to give up drugs and fornication with hot rich dudes to sit in his low rent apartment and wait to see if he was dead or not from his latest scrap with the homicidal maniacs he picks fights with on the regular.

Astoundingly, she said yes and also decided to get a complete personality transplant at the same time going from a fiery untameable natural red head to a whiney stock "cops wife" character who alternates between standing by her man and wishing he would quit, depending on what neck bearded incel loser who couldn't write a real woman because the only ones he new well were siblings or parents was in charge. Suddenly Mj's red hair seemed more like a dye job.

MaryJane who had been an interesting and compelling supporting character and emotional foil to our hero became a stock wife character of little to no distinct personality in the blink of an eye. David Micheline was the main writer at the time and handled the newly weds kinda okay after the jump the shark moment but I suspect that Peter's marriage was constrained by some serious editorial edicts that Pete and MJ's marital bliss stay closer to domestic paradise than anything realistic or narratively compelling. The writers following Micheline were obviously also to constrained or to cowardly to inject any conflict or otherwise realistic drama into the doomed marriage between the formerly coked out hotty and the photographer who banged whatever babes he could find to deal with the death of the love of his life, Gwen.

The interesting and logical directions Pete's life might take being married to a woman like the party girl he asked were never explored honestly at all so instead we saw hackneyed external threats to the marriage like homicidal stalkers and job offers from out of state to add tepid drama to the boring relationship for 20 fucking years.

There were lots of ways to tell the tale of Peter and MJ that would have made for superb stories but a combination of incel writers and PG editorial edicts made for the mostly boring personal life readers endured until Quesada came along and said (rightly) this isn't really working and anything that happens in Peter's personal life seems trite.

But what Quesada did next was beyond retarded. Instead of hiring a mature writer who'd seen a real girl naked in a bedroom instead of a strip club to write the break up or fix the boring nature of the Parker marriage he decided to write the biggest most retarded example of Deus Ex Machina anyone could imagine and have the Devil steal his marriage for reasons that no reader of comics that include Mephisto would ever buy.

His soft retcon was justly trashed by anyone capable of tying their own shoes and the story of Pete and MJ instead of having a climax and resolution that would satisfy and/or anger the fans got put in limbo for years as a specter to hang over Peter's personal life and romantic decisions for the next decade of books written mostly by D&D incels like Dan Sloot. Quesada took the cowards way out.

A lot of people who didn't read Spidey back then and know how wonderful the characters of Pete and MJ were before the marriage will disagree and some who did read them will as well but the move to marry Pete and MJ was a colossal mistake story wise. Don't @ me.

They gave Peter his happily ever after. And then they tried to continue the story inside a happily ever after ending which was a retarded and cowardly editorial decision destined to lead to a downgrade in story telling for the next 20-30 years.

Interestingly, DC married Clark and Lois a few years later, handled it well, and Supes mostly improved in storytelling as a result. Different characters where a happy marriage made more sense. Unlike Pete and MJ, Clark and Lois were boring for decades before they got married and the wedding gave them new directions to take their boring relationship.

The Banner/Ross marriage has worked from an interesting story perspective as well.

Who knew that conflict between complicated characters leads to compelling stories?

🤷‍♂️


EDIT: TL;DR
The Peter and MJ marriage was a mistake to begin with but Quesadilla only fucked it up worse.
 
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Was there anything in MoS #1-6 that broke Superman?
That depends entirely on what you think core of the character is. For some Clark being "real" and not a mask is fundamental character change. Superman didn't become a household name with Lois being a strong independent woman either, it happened with Clark-Lois-Superman love triangle where Lois would do something retarded and Superman had to bail her out.
 
The Peter and MJ marriage was a mistake to begin with but Quesadilla only fucked it up worse.

Honestly, nothing could have been more Peter Parker than marrying a coked up party girl, getting cucked and served with divorce papers, struggling to pay alimony, and constantly worrying if the ex was going to get hammered and spill his secret identity to her dealer.

This would have been more in character and relatable than wishing his marriage into the cornfield.
 
I never had a problem with Quesada wanting to end the Parker/Watson marriage. I think it was a mistake to begin with. It was the jump the shark moment when you give the character and the audience what they wanted and don't know where to go from there.

Mary-Jane was an interesting character before she married Peter. She was a coked out promiscuous party girl (Read the comics before she suddenly knew he was Spidey all along. It's all there if you're looking.) who truly loved our hero and he loved her too in his own way. Peter was the nice guy but with his head on a swivel when it came to the ladies. He loved MJ but she was a bit of a hot mess to be honest and they'd never be able to make it work long term. So he was banging Black Cat and some hot civilian chicks when the opportunity presented. They were both smart as whips and good people despite their faults.

Then Pete asked Lindsay Lohan MaryJane to give up drugs and fornication with hot rich dudes to sit in his low rent apartment and wait to see if he was dead or not from his latest scrap with the homicidal maniacs he picks fights with on the regular.

Astoundingly, she said yes and also decided to get a complete personality transplant at the same time going from a fiery untameable natural red head to a whiney stock "cops wife" character who alternates between standing by her man and wishing he would quit, depending on what neck bearded incel loser who couldn't write a real woman because the only ones he new well were siblings or parents was in charge. Suddenly Mj's red hair seemed more like a dye job.

MaryJane who had been an interesting and compelling supporting character and emotional foil to our hero became a stock wife character of little to no distinct personality in the blink of an eye. David Micheline was the main writer at the time and handled the newly weds kinda okay after the jump the shark moment but I suspect that Peter's marriage was constrained by some serious editorial edicts that Pete and MJ's marital bliss stay closer to domestic paradise than anything realistic or narratively compelling. The writers following Micheline were obviously also to constrained or to cowardly to inject any conflict or otherwise realistic drama into the doomed marriage between the formerly coked out hotty and the photographer who banged whatever babes he could find to deal with the death of the love of his life, Gwen.

The interesting and logical directions Pete's life might take being married to a woman like the party girl he asked were never explored honestly at all so instead we saw hackneyed external threats to the marriage like homicidal stalkers and job offers from out of state to add tepid drama to the boring relationship for 20 fucking years.

There were lots of ways to tell the tale of Peter and MJ that would have made for superb stories but a combination of incel writers and PG editorial edicts made for the mostly boring personal life readers endured until Quesada came along and said (rightly) this isn't really working and anything that happens in Peter's personal life seems trite.

But what Quesada did next was beyond retarded. Instead of hiring a mature writer who'd seen a real girl naked in a bedroom instead of a strip club to write the break up or fix the boring nature of the Parker marriage he decided to write the biggest most retarded example of Deus Ex Machina anyone could imagine and have the Devil steal his marriage for reasons that no reader of comics that include Mephisto would ever buy.

His soft retcon was justly trashed by anyone capable of tying their own shoes and the story of Pete and MJ instead of having a climax and resolution that would satisfy and/or anger the fans got put in limbo for years as a specter to hang over Peter's personal life and romantic decisions for the next decade of books written mostly by D&D incels like Dan Sloot. Quesada took the cowards way out.

A lot of people who didn't read Spidey back then and know how wonderful the characters of Pete and MJ were before the marriage will disagree and some who did read them will as well but the move to marry Pete and MJ was a colossal mistake story wise. Don't @ me.

They gave Peter his happily ever after. And then they tried to continue the story inside a happily ever after ending which was a retarded and cowardly editorial decision destined to lead to a downgrade in story telling for the next 20-30 years.

Interestingly, DC married Clark and Lois a few years later, handled it well, and Supes mostly improved in storytelling as a result. Different characters where a happy marriage made more sense. Unlike Pete and MJ, Clark and Lois were boring for decades before they got married and the wedding gave them new directions to take their boring relationship.

The Banner/Ross marriage has worked from an interesting story perspective as well.

Who knew that conflict between complicated characters leads to compelling stories?

🤷‍♂️


EDIT: TL;DR
The Peter and MJ marriage was a mistake to begin with but Quesadilla only fucked it up worse.
A long, long time ago I read each and every spiderman issue up to Civil War thanks to the power of the internet. So I am quite aware how things went downhill after McFarlane and Larsen left Spider-Man.

I have also seen way too many comics Perch videos to not add more information.
Up to McFarlane leaving Spider-Man, the Spider-titles had a long term editor (he was interviewed by Perch some time ago) who had a plan. He left and the people who followed came up with the clone saga, so that PP and MJ can go bugger off and Ben Reilly be Spiderman (or so he claims)
It did not work out, despite certain writers (such as DeMatteis) trying to salvage the mess.

JMS had a semi-good run with some megastupid ideas (Gwen bangingGreen Goblin, the Spider Totems, OMD). If he was given the character without Quesada injecting his ideas he might have given us a solid run. Aunt May learning PP is spider-Man and Peter joining the Avengers were great plot threads to follow until his marriage would fall apart.

Also, a similar to OMD retcon was proposed in DC for Superman I believe, but they had enough braincells to say no. Mark Millar and Mark Waid were two of the masterminds behind that retcon, so I would not be surprised if they came up with that plan during CW. I wouldn't be surprised if Waid wormtongued Quessada into taking the title (along with Slott) or Millar throwing the idea when JQ refused to have PP unmasked during CW.
 
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A long, long time ago I read each and every spiderman issue up to Civil War thanks to the power of the internet. So I am quite aware how things went downhill after McFarlane and Larsen left Spider-Man.

I have also seen way too many comics Perch videos to not add more information.
Up to McFarlane leaving Spider-Man, the Spider-titles had a long term editor (he was interviewed by Perch some time ago) who had a plan. He left and the people who followed came up with the clone saga, so that PP and MJ can go bugger off and Ben Reilly be Spiderman (or so he claims)
It did not work out, despite certain writers (such as DeMatteis) trying to salvage the mess.

JMS had a semi-good run with some megastupid ideas (Gwen bangingGreen Goblin, the Spider Totems, OMD). If he was given the character without Quesada injecting his ideas he might have given us a solid run. Aunt May learning PP is spider-Man and Peter joining the Avengers were great plot threads to follow until his marriage would fall apart.

Also, a similar to OMD retcon was proposed in DC for Superman I believe, but they had enough braincells to say no. Mark Millar and Mark Waid were two of the masterminds behind that retcon, so I would not be surprised if they came up with that plan during CW. I wouldn't be surprised if Waid wormtongued Quessada into taking the title (along with Slott) or Millar throwing the idea when JQ refused to have PP unmasked during CW.
The Bagley/Micheline era was awesome and you can make a case that the real drop in quality was after Maximum Carnage; after that story, the series largely went into sleep mode as the Clone Saga work started up, resulting in a dire period (#386-394) where Peter went grimdark to justify the reveal that he was a clone).

Also, Quesada was 100% behind OMD. He was especially butt-hurt that JMS backstabbed him by arranging MJ written out so he could reunite them as a failsafe if his Totem shit flopped to salvage his run. Also, even Kevin Smith telling Quesada "No!" when Quesada offered to give him ASM to write/shove JMS onto a spin-off Spidey book, if he would break Peter and MJ up for good and Smith stating that the only way he could do that was have Peter leave MJ for another woman.
 
JMS had a semi-good run with some megastupid ideas (Gwen bangingGreen Goblin, the Spider Totems, OMD). If he was given the character without Quesada injecting his ideas he might have given us a solid run.
This.

I like JMS. I was basically forced to like JMS when my father demanded I tape every episode of Babylon 5 due to the fact I got out of school before he got off work. He's a talented writer. I unexpectedly grew to love that show.

OMD had some good writing. The issue, as I see it, is more that the entire concept was fucking idiotic. He was a slave to a corporate edict from Quesada. JMS polished that turd about as well as anybody. It probably would have been even less well received with another writer attached.

Also, I come from the camp that says PP should just be allowed to retire. Pass the mantle onto somebody else, or something. NONE of this had to be done unless you just have a hard-on for PP being forever single and forever Spiderman.
 
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Spider-Man matters more for toys, cartoons, video games and movies than the comics. The IP is bigger than the comics.

I remember Age of Apocalypse going on around the same time as Clone Saga and that was night and day of a massive crossover/event in the 90s in terms of quality. X-Men worked much better in large scale 'events.' I remember getting the Kraven's Last Hunt crossover comics for Christmas as a kid. The story was a 'crossover' but the scope was fairly small, only about one man's obsession. I never felt like Spider-Man's world should be so large. In bigger events, he works as a great POV character because Peter is the everyman.

Clone Saga, apart from being convoluted and dumb, was also quite sci-fi. OMD was far too magical (and brings into question the scope of Mephisto's powers, though that issue is minor compared to the damage to long term cannon and characters).

The Mainline Spider-Man comics are largely in a state of running in place/out of ideas/playing it safe. He has his love interest/villains/supporting cast/day to day life. There's no 'event' that's going to damage the IP further because they wouldn't be foolish enough to do a Clone Saga/OMD type deal again.
 
This.

I like JMS. I was basically forced to like JMS when my father demanded I tape every episode of Babylon 5 due to the fact I got out of school before he got off work. He's a talented writer. I unexpectedly grew to like that show.

OMD had some good writing. The issue, as I see it, is more that the entire concept was fucking idiotic. He was a slave to a corporate edict from Quesada. JMS polished that turd about as well as anybody. It probably would have been even less well received with another writer attached.

Also, I come from the camp that says PP should just be allowed to retire. Pass the mantle onto somebody else, or something. NONE of this had to be done unless you just have a hard-on for PP being forever single.
My chief issues with JMS is three-fold:

1. He went so far in on the "Peter as teacher" thing that we basically went about 5 years without any of the usual supporting cast save for Aunt May. Similarly, outside of Doctor Octopus (who was used solely because JMS leans towards the line of "Doctor Octopus is a villain, but one that has a straightforward sense of honor and is capable of helping Spidey as needed" and was pissy that Paul Jenkins was writing a story where Otto was making artificial limbs for amputees that would explode and kill them for the evillulz to tie into Spider-Man 2), we never got any of Peter's rogue gallery until the very end with the Civil War aftermath stuff with Kingpin.
2. The spider-totem shit, which JMS absolutely would not give up on to the point that he wrote one story towards the end of his run where he bascially had Ezikial rant at the reader about why they won't accept his crap about Peter's power coming from a magic spider
3. Sins Past, which was a horrific idea even before the rewrites that made it an even worse story.
 
In bigger events, he works as a great POV character because Peter is the everyman.
This is one of my problems with the marriage.

Peter is the everyman in the Marvel Universe. When he married a perfect (after nuptuals) super model who solved (pretty much) all his money issues he became less of a relatable everyman character and more of a wish fulfillment character.

To me this was a betrayal of the literary narrative of Parker's life. He married the "right" girl and all the problems that made him relatable and gave him compelling motivation evaporated.

The following writers tried to fix this by giving him new hurdles to get over but they always rang hollow for me because he never managed to get over the last set of hurdles himself. He married himself over them.

Post marriage I had a hard time taking Pete's personal life seriously because I could tell editorial would never put his marriage in any real danger. It's like Wolverine "dying". Everyone knows he'll be back and the death carries no emotional weight to the story.

It's like "Wolverine's dead. I wonder when they'll bring him back." Or "MJ left Peter. I wonder how long they'll be separated before editorial or the next writer makes sure they are happily married again."

Meh.
 
Man, it's like you guys never want anybody to be happy.

Oh well, this is Kiwifarms. We're ALL basically like Mephisto I suppose. :story:
Happiness is great... at the end of a story.

If you give a character their "happily ever after" it's probably best to wrap that characters story up after that because "happily ever after" isn't the compelling part of the story. Getting there is.

Everyone wants Pete to be happy. But he's way less interesting when he is.
 
Because apparently it's impossible to have relationship drama when your heroics force you and your spouse into danger (thus causing some nice trauma and issues to work out), you have to balance your need to be responsible with power with your need to get checks on the table to support her, and the strain having split priorities can get you.

Hell, things get even more hectic if kids become a thing

Fuck's sake, it's not hard to come up with problems and issues in a marriage and have it be troubled if Pete NEEDS to always be miserable, which I call bullshit on.
 
Because apparently it's impossible to have relationship drama when your heroics force you and your spouse into danger (thus causing some nice trauma and issues to work out), you have to balance your need to be responsible with power with your need to get checks on the table to support her, and the strain having split priorities can get you.

Hell, things get even more hectic if kids become a thing

Fuck's sake, it's not hard to come up with problems and issues in a marriage and have it be troubled if Pete NEEDS to always be miserable, which I call bullshit on.

It would require a competent writer who has human emotions and has had real relationships with women. Instead, they hired Dan Slott to write the character for like 10 years.
 
If you give a character their "happily ever after" it's probably best to wrap that characters story up after that because "happily ever after" isn't the compelling part of the story. Getting there is.
Exactly.

END. PETER. PARKER'S. STORY.

Come up with something else. There was a "getting there" for DECADES.

I don't know why endings are such an anathema to American comic books. "All good things..." and whatnot. It's not like people will stop buying PP era Spiderman shit just because the comic isn't published anymore. People buy all sorts of crap for old franchises they loved.

Anyways, we're probably getting so far off topic because nothing particularly interesting is going on. I accept the blame for this and Tim Lim.

I'm waiting for DAT to get served with papers, or Liam's treehouse to fall on him, or something really lulzy. Fingers crossed, everyone.

Fuck's sake, it's not hard to come up with problems and issues in a marriage and have it be troubled if Pete NEEDS to always be miserable, which I call bullshit on.
It's been suggested that comic writers have no fucking clue what to do when given a married couple to work with.

Which is weird, because I know some of them are married.

And while many comic readers might not be married, I'm sure some of them aspire to be.
 
Because apparently it's impossible to have relationship drama when your heroics force you and your spouse into danger (thus causing some nice trauma and issues to work out), you have to balance your need to be responsible with power with your need to get checks on the table to support her, and the strain having split priorities can get you.

Hell, things get even more hectic if kids become a thing

Fuck's sake, it's not hard to come up with problems and issues in a marriage and have it be troubled if Pete NEEDS to always be miserable, which I call bullshit on.
Twenty years of married Spider-Man and they barely touched on the ideas you've presented. I agree with you. It's a shame you weren't writing it.


Which is weird, because I know some of them are married.

And while many comic readers might not be married, I'm sure some of them aspire to be.
I suspect, as libtards and craven comic book nerds, writers are to terrified of what their wives might think to write anything remotely real in their married characters for fear of being cut off or losing half their shit.

And liberals in this age especially are taking their careers in their hands when they think about telling a story with a sympathetic female character who is anything other than perfect and demonstrably better than her mate.

That's why Bat-Cuck has been learning how to be 'a better man' from his fiance the thief in the dominatrix gear.

Mainstream, and most indy, comics are fucked.
 
So much stuff... going to need to chop and move fellas

A long, long time ago I read each and every spiderman issue up to Civil War thanks to the power of the internet. So I am quite aware how things went downhill after McFarlane and Larsen left Spider-Man.
:(
I have also seen way too many comics Perch videos to not add more information.
Up to McFarlane leaving Spider-Man, the Spider-titles had a long term editor (he was interviewed by Perch some time ago) who had a plan. He left and the people who followed came up with the clone saga, so that PP and MJ can go bugger off and Ben Reilly be Spiderman (or so he claims)
It did not work out, despite certain writers (such as DeMatteis) trying to salvage the mess.
Yeah, 90s Spidey sucked hard until JMS swooped in and picked the book up.
JMS had a semi-good run a great run until...

fixed it for you

with some megastupid ideas (Gwen bangingGreen Goblin, the Spider Totems, OMD). If he was given the character without Quesada injecting his ideas he might have given us a solid run. Aunt May learning PP is spider-Man and Peter joining the Avengers were great plot threads to follow until his marriage would fall apart.

Too much...

1. Joe's idea was Peter got Gwen pregnant and she gave them up for adoption. Norman tracked them down and brainwashed them. Basically everything JRJR was pure JMS, everything post was tainted by editorial.

2. The Spider-Totems were original ideas that moved things forward.

Also, a similar to OMD retcon was proposed in DC for Superman I believe...
It was and they did.

I like JMS...
His run remains probably pound for pound the best in terms of commerce and quality for its first couple of years. He allowed Peter to be an adult and people wanted him to remain in Ditko mode; a loser in High School forever.

Because apparently it's impossible to have relationship drama when your heroics force you and your spouse into danger (thus causing some nice trauma and issues to work out), you have to balance your need to be responsible with power with your need to get checks on the table to support her, and the strain having split priorities can get you.

Hell, things get even more hectic if kids become a thing

Fuck's sake, it's not hard to come up with problems and issues in a marriage and have it be troubled if Pete NEEDS to always be miserable, which I call bullshit on.

He doesn't. He just is a blue collar slob hero. Which is why he doesn't fit with the Avengers. Multi Millionaires, aliens, and super soldiers.
 
Marriage does not really fit a standard superhero story model (or marketing model) and should be left for What Ifs and Elseworlds to explore. Quesada was right, he just went about it in really retarded way.
I think it depends on the character.

Obviously, having Frank Castle get married (technically re-married) would be fucking dumb. It would be a betrayal of his specific character archetype.

Others? It depends. Especially if you're looking to end the story.
 
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