How did you form your moral worldview?

[Lemmingwise]

In fairness to LeVay, that's more about teaching kids to jerk it than it is about using kids in sex magick (in contrast, there's at least two parts where specifically he warns against using kids for sex magick). And it's interesting, too, because hasn't there been a lot of political sperging recently about schools teaching masturbation? Like that Church of Satan FOR KIDS stuff that got popular several years back, then the various kerfluffles about Drag Queen Story Hour, and now these (apparently unaffiliated?) courses in public schools...?

I mean, I grew up in the 90s, and I remember we were all encouraged to view fundies as crazy kooks (even as we were encouraged to explore things like Satanism). But I really don't see how anyone can miss this stuff now, or how mainstream it's become.

Something something, revelation of the method, something something, hiding in plain sight. Not sure if Houdini would be proud, or aghast...

Supposedly the sex magick details were in his diary. The diary that Kinsey got after Anton's death. Kinsey that had already published work with measuring how long it takes for children ages 1-10 to achieve orgasm and arguing that even of they were crying they gained from the experience because they had orgasm. Kinsey then went on to inspire Hefner to start playboy, which contained thousands of images of child pornography over the years (as proven in court in the netherlands playboy vs. Reisner).

I really liked your question because I had to reasses my certainty. I still consider it likely due to all the people clustering together and the various things they were involved with, including kenneth anger. But it forces me to concede (to myself) I don't have conclusive evidence.

Not sure if Houdini would be proud, or aghast...

Why do you say that? Did he have something to do with the phrase "hiding in plain sight"? Or did you see that he was one of the thirty people or so who were acknowledged for the satanic bible?

Ps. There are a couple of your questions that I still want to answer, but I need time to mull them over.

 

[mr.moon1488]

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

Help others do the right thing.

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

Corrupt people.

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

Before and after each action.

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

Christianity.

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

Yes and no. Everyone forms and is ultimately responsible for their own opinions, but those are always shaped by the world around them. I don't think there was really a singular moment, but rather the slow realization that I was being corrupted by the world around me along with everyone else.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?

No. I can't even fully trust myself on moral issues, and I'm obviously a known element to myself, so it would be foolish to trust someone else that I can only make assumptions about.

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

a. Everyone wants this, they just would like for others to follow an idealized version of their moral view.

b. Depends. If it's someone I can help to come around then I don't want to push them away. If it's someone I think is just going to bring me down I cut them loose.

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?

Maybe. I'm surprised at how much more pragmatic I've gotten with age.

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?

Lol, it's 2021. It would be easier to list off the ones which aren't immoral.

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?

Sexism. Men and women are different and have their rightful places in society.

 

[Lame Entropy]

Not to be That Guy, but do you have any citations to back this up?

I myself used to believe in the "Christian retcon" hypothesis - since that's what people told me, and it made sense in my head that Christians would rewrite the Eddas - but I'm actually not sure this is a view that scholars and academics who specialize in Norse literature accept. For example, I know that no less an authority than Jackson Crawford has argued that the Eddas were not rewritten to fit a Christian model, but on the contrary, were likely mostly faithful to the original sources.

I'll have to get back to you after going through my computer to find what I was reading. I definitely could be wrong though!

 

[Lemmingwise]

I'm not saying you're wrong, and frankly I'd be shocked if it WASN'T true, but if anyone has a specific source or citation I could check - either Crowley or Lavey or some other weirdo like that - where they endorse loli sex magicking, it'd be interesting to file away.

Hey going through your old message again, I see you asked for evidence for either Lavey or Crowley. I thought you just asked about Lavey.

In any case, their rituals are connected to the kidwelly sex cult in Wales as well as various groups in US during the so-called "satanic panic". It should really be called "the satanic coverup", if you read into these things such as the finders and the various events. I don't think the official narrative works. I don't think this narrative can survive a careful read of the related events and testimonies.

It's also worth pointing out that it's a matter of public record that Crowley for years practices pederasty with boys in Algeria. I might not be able to have writing of him endorsing child rape, he did engage in it.

 

[Solid Snek]

Supposedly the sex magick details were in his diary. The diary that Kinsey got after Anton's death. Kinsey that had already published work with measuring how long it takes for children ages 1-10 to achieve orgasm and arguing that even of they were crying they gained from the experience because they had orgasm. Kinsey then went on to inspire Hefner to start playboy, which contained thousands of images of child pornography over the years (as proven in court in the netherlands playboy vs. Reisner).

I really liked your question because I had to reasses my certainty. I still consider it likely due to all the people clustering together and the various things they were involved with, including kenneth anger. But it forces me to concede (to myself) I don't have conclusive evidence.

Yeah, sure, if you find anything let me know! It could very well be true (I'd be surprised if it wasn't), but without a reliable citation it's just hearsay, and it's easy for people to deny.

Why do you say that? Did he have something to do with the phrase "hiding in plain sight"? Or did you see that he was one of the thirty people or so who were acknowledged for the satanic bible?

Ps. There are a couple of your questions that I still want to answer, but I need time to mull them over.

Just as a general commentary on magic and the power of misdirection. Magic isn't really a subject I'm that knowledgeable about, but from what I understand, Houdini was one of the first people to demystify magic; expressly identify magic as a system of boldly bullshitting, in just such a way, that audiences will simply go along in whatever direction you want them to (even if you "show" them precisely how the trick is being performed*). My understanding is also that Houdini was one of the first "skeptics" - i.e. anti-magick magicians, who were rooted in rationalism and opposed to many of the more far-out mystical beliefs of spiritualists and the hardcore occult (at the very least, this is something James Randi has proposed).

I can't prove Houdini would view LeVay as a professional rival, woke malcontent, or maybe even as a lolcow, but my headcanon says he would.

Plus, the idea that Luciferians could exist in a civilization one generation removed from staunch Christianity, openly pushing CoS fap education in public schools, and everyone just kind of shrugs their shoulders about it, is actually kind of amazing.


* One of my favorite examples of this principle in action:

You can see exactly how they're doing it, but they're still directing you at their leisure, and it's still basically impossible to follow what's happening until it's all over.

 

[Lemmingwise]

* One of my favorite examples of this principle in action:

Yeah, I'm familiar with it; but it's still nice to hear you describe it with more structure than I would be able to in regards to magic. Derren Brown has a similar style.

it's still basically impossible to follow

If you've studied magic more (can I admit anything more shameful?), the first one isn't impossible to follow either. No F U reward for them, they did not fool me.

 

[Solid Snek]

Yeah, I'm familiar with it; but it's still nice to hear you describe it with more structure than I would be able to in regards to magic. Derren Brown has a similar style.



If you've studied magic more (can I admit anything more shameful?), the first one isn't impossible to follow either. No F U reward for them, they did not fool me.

Oh, sure sure, if you'e a magician, then I'd fully expect YOU to know how a cup and ball trick works! But for normies - the general audience, the "sleepers" if you will - even with the clear cups it's impossible to follow. Penn's saying all this shit, and you're trying to drink it all in, but you don't know where to look, and stuff just appears, and HOLY CRAP WHY IS THERE A BASEBALL NOW?

To bring this back to your initial question re: moral systems and sources of authority, I'd actually have to say that - while I probably come off as quite critical of LeVay et al., I'd actually consider myself to be a Luciferian, too (in the ethical and philosophical sense, at any rate! I don't worship demons or believe in devil's or anything; I simply mean that I resonate with the Luciferian ideal of the pursuit of knowledge and individual potential, even when proscribed by authorities). I certainly have a lot of Luciferian values, e.g. my belief that knowledge or gnosis is the highest good, to which even happiness is subordinate. And as above, I cannot really say to what degree this was me, and to what degree this was the social influences of Luciferian media and literature that I consumed over the years (certainly, I think the role of Luciferian attitudes in shaping postmodern culture is wildly underappreciated, and while I don't think I would go so far as to say the Satanic Panic was a coverup, I think that, as with the "Red Scare" and "Witch Hunt" myths, there was more to that period than court histories would want us to believe)

My biggest issue with Luciferianism as practice, is actually less to do with Luciferianism itself, and more with "occult" attitudes in general - specifically, with the idea that "The Light" (knowledge) is an initiatory Mystery that needs to be concealed from the masses and only made accessible, in stages, to those people deemed worthy. All too often, I think, intellectuals who find themselves ethically aligned with "Luciferianism" endorse practices like censorship, lying, and social control. Maybe it would be better to simply call myself a Promethean? Since Prometheus did not leave the Fire on Olympus so only the Gods could partake of it, but rather seized the Fire from Olympus and brought it to Man - which is far more laudible than the more common, Christian vision of Lucifer (Satan), who simply embraced the Fire in hopes of becoming himself God.

 

[Noir drag freak]

I want to say that I really don't care for morality in the Abrahamic religious sense. But I am a hypocrite to some degree.

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

I think that the most virtuous endeavor is to sacrifice themselves to a high ideal. The second would be to face the whole truth without any bias. To be truthful about one's actions. Don't do anything that would make you lose respect for yourself or anybody.

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

To lie or deny reality. But I think that an inability to act is sinful.

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

About half of the time.

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

I think that most of my opinions on morality were form through books, fiction and non-fiction. I grow up in a Christian environment so that has some minor influences, but not a major one.

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

I think there been a couple of defining moments. One was the pastor preaching about abstinence, but fired a week later for having an affair with a female member of his church. Second was watching a homosexual man who let his wife live a lie for 25 years.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?

I don't know. I just tend to test and research. So I tend to learn from anyone and anybody. I don't have to agree, but I do have to grow in some way.

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

NO.

 

[Lemmingwise]

, I'd actually consider myself to be a Luciferian, too (in the ethical and philosophical sense, at any rate! I don't worship demons or believe in devil's or anything; I simply mean that I resonate with the Luciferian ideal of the pursuit of knowledge and individual potential, even when proscribed by authorities)

I don't think this really is the case to be honest, in the same way that people that genuinely care about equality make poor feminists. Again, it's what it says in the brochure, not what it is.

The comparison to magician and magic tricks is actually very apt. I think maybe cults and the occult and esoteric practices are much clearer to decypher after considerable study/experience with some.

Luciferian's adopted rationalism the way christian rock adopted rock. They may use its language, its memes, its mystique and its glamour but it's only a means to an end; the christian rock version is typically less succesful because they appropriate it less cynically/psychopathically. They want the rock itself to be christian. Conversely satanic cults (and other destructive cults) don't mind lying openly and leaving the appropriated culture intact, because their methods for influence and control come later and they are unhampered by conscience in persuing it. They too "do what they will".

All too often, I think, intellectuals who find themselves ethically aligned with "Luciferianism" endorse practices like censorship, lying, and social control. Maybe it would be better to simply call myself a Promethean? Since Prometheus did not leave the Fire on Olympus so only the Gods could partake of it, but rather seized the Fire from Olympus and brought it to Man - which is far more laudible than the more common, Christian vision of Lucifer (Satan), who simply embraced the Fire in hopes of becoming himself God.

It's an interesting thought to be sure, Promethean. Personally I consider all such denotions vanity titles (not that I never engage in them), as the meaning in such terms is much more about the tent and the people in that tent than any one particular person or his thoughts/beliefs.

Pardon me if I decry such kind of individualism, even if you seem to have made an accurate point.

What continues to resonate between your posts and my thoughts is that sense of valuing knowledge. And I suppose the sharing of it.

It's also interesting that someone earlier in this thread called such behaviour sinful:

Just giving all your "influence" away for no reason.

 

[Kill a Troon for Pikamee]

I adhere to the Law of God and spit on all man-made laws

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

What Jesus did

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

Despair, thinking you are beyond God's ability to save you, all the worst sins come from that

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

Couple of times a day

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

Derived from the authority of God

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

If I was forming my own moral opinion I would be a pig wallowing in my own filth

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?

Many people, I am a sinner and a bad person, a lot of people are much better than me

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

People will do what God wants, I don't remove people who don't do what God wants from my life because we are all sinners, unless they are hostile to me

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?

No

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?

Disrespecting your parents

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?

Dueling, killing of witches and other profligates, war (including taking of slaves, mass executions etc.), bride kidnapping, arranged marriages, drunk driving, producing and distributing cocaine, tax evasion, statutory rape etc etc

 

[Lemmingwise]

I am a hypocrite to some degree

Aren't we all?

Just curious. In a recent post in another thread you said you hated straigtht men. Do you consider that virtuous? Sinful? A quirk? Just wondering why someone would hate the default on anything. And whether it's more an emotional response or chosen morality.

There's things that I hold in strong contempt for example, but typically this was a choice, due to it being objectively deeply immoral.

 

[Fek]

objectively deeply immoral

Perfect bait for philosophy majors. A+. 10/10.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Perfect bait for philosophy majors. A+. 10/10.

Not fucking bait, it's me iconoclasticly shouting from my soapbox at the ivory towers. I'm fucking right too.

 

[A Gay Retard]

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

Self-sacrifice for an objectively noble purpose.

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

True, sadistic cruelty.

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

I don't know if it's something I'm consciously considering at all times.

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

A little bit of everything. Heavy Protestantism; profound crisis leading to a misinterpretation of Nietzsche; a more accurate interpretation of Schopenhauer; the worldview of people who came to my aid when I needed it.

I also think there's an inborn, gut-feeling moral compass observable across cultures and through millennia. The Noahide Laws and 10 Commandments cover a lot of it.

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

My prayers going unanswered when I needed help the most. That and almost dying several times.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?

I'm sure there are people who are equally correct.

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view?

Yes.

7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

I'm less inclined to want to spend time with them.

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?

For a long time I was fine rationalizing my own awful conduct as necessary or as evening a score that needed correcting. I try to do less of that these days.

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?

Hitting children to discipline them. Abortion in general but especially reprehensible after week 10-12.

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?

Certain forms of lying.

 

[FEETLOAF]

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

Thinking. The "likeness" that we share with God is mental, not physical. We are self aware and capable of conscious thought. We are defined by this unique ability, and exist to use it. God is an unconscious uniform monadic being which necessarily precludes perspective or knowledge of self. God created mankind to understand the universe for him, so that he can ultimately know himself.

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

Not thinking.

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

1 Thessalonians 5:17: "Pray without ceasing."
I examine the morality of everything.

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

Scripture, Reason, and Revelation form a triad of informed dogma. No church has everything right, but the church is not without value either.

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

Doing huge amounts of psychoactive drugs.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?

No. See #1. It is borderline immoral to trust anyone to have a better view of anything than you. You have a duty to think about things yourself.

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

Of course. If I didn't think my moral view was objectively correct it wouldn't be my view. If I think it's objectively correct, why wouldn't I want everyone to follow it?

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?

No.

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?

The obvious answer is cooming but idol worship is also ubiquitous in modern society.

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?

Hate.

 

[Noir drag freak]

Aren't we all?

Just curious. In a recent post in another thread you said you hated straigtht men. Do you consider that virtuous? Sinful? A quirk? Just wondering why someone would hate the default on anything. And whether it's more an emotional response or chosen morality.

There's things that I hold in strong contempt for example, but typically this was a choice, due to it being objectively deeply immoral.

First off, I think that morality is an ideal that is aspiration. My comments were more of an emotional response so I wasn't trying to make a moral claim. Hatred is "wrong", but people tend to hate a group of people due to pass experiences. I don't hate the concept of heterosexuality or the act of heterosexual sex. I hate how straight guys treated me growing up. I don't hate individual straight guys, because some of my friends are straight. But I like to project all of my negative feelings onto heterosexual men. Sorta of like how racists tend to hate a group as concept, but can love an individual.

 

[Lemmingwise]

First off, I think that morality is an ideal that is aspiration. My comments were more of an emotional response so I wasn't trying to make a moral claim. Hatred is "wrong", but people tend to hate a group of people due to pass experiences. I don't hate the concept of heterosexuality or the act of heterosexual sex. I hate how straight guys treated me growing up. I don't hate individual straight guys, because some of my friends are straight. But I like to project all of my negative feelings onto heterosexual men. Sorta of like how racists tend to hate a group as concept, but can love an individual.

Thanks for explaining.

I think I would fall into the category "racist" for most people, but insofar as I am it is a chosen and even aspirational point of view. If I did find myself projecting, it would be the first thing I would want to curtail in myself.

But then people always tell me I'm hard on myself so maybe I overdo it.

 

[Old Sun World]

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

Follow their heart in all things.

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

Allow the mind to dictate your behavior.

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

Never. I know that my actions are always moral because I wouldn't do anything that's immoral.

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

It was a long journey and I have forgotten most of the people who have helped me come to my current understanding of the world and self, I think there is truth to everything and everyone.

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

I started to believe in God again after over a decade of atheism once I killed a man in self defense during my time in the military, I did it because that was the right thing to do and it changed the way I perceive the world forever.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?

No. How can someone be better than anyone else? We are all parts of the same whole.

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

No, each person should follow their own heart and walk the path that forms from their own destinies. And no, I don't remove people from my life for their moral choices because I don't associate with degenerates in the first place. But I would remove them if they magically started being degenerates.

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?

When I did what was expected of me I was surprised at the lengths I would go to confirm other's expectations of me. Later I realized that I was being manipulated and so I stopped following the footsteps of others and decided to forge my own way through life.

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?

Inversion of all things. When all that is good becomes bad and all that is bad becomes good, that's hell.

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?

Discrimination. People shouldn't be treated equally.

 

[Solid Snek]

I don't think this really is the case to be honest, in the same way that people that genuinely care about equality make poor feminists. Again, it's what it says in the brochure, not what it is. ... They too "do what they will".

I'd agree with that. That's something I've noticed, too, especially with the "fedora Satanists": they embrace the idea of "Do As Thou Will", but with the caveat that this kind of freedom is really only for them, not for everyone else.

It's an interesting thought to be sure, Promethean. Personally I consider all such denotions vanity titles (not that I never engage in them), as the meaning in such terms is much more about the tent and the people in that tent than any one particular person or his thoughts/beliefs.

Pardon me if I decry such kind of individualism, even if you seem to have made an accurate point.

Yeah, I don't really like labels either - not because it's vanity, but because I think labels encourage ad hominem, and make it

• first, difficult for outside observers to get a handle on what the labelled individual actually believes, and
• second, harder for the individual who internalizes the label, to think and reason independently.

But sometimes labels are useful, I think. For example, it's a lot easier to tell people I'm "a libertarian" than to tell them I'm "an anarcho-voluntarist", and it's a lot easier to tell people that I'm "an anarcho-voluntarist" than it is to spend thirty minutes explaining what the hell anarcho-voluntarism even means. The trick is both knowing when and where to use labels, and also training yourself in mindfulness, sound epistemology, and critical thinking, so you can approach "labeled ideas" in a fair, intelligent, and rational way (this is actually a point where I think I'd intersect with PC/SJW types - the utility of "neutral and unbiased language" - although I disagree on their methodology, I think their motives are downright evil, and I'd argue that (as with your feminist/equality and our earlier occultist/Luciferean examples, they don't actually adhere to the idea they espouse)

What continues to resonate between your posts and my thoughts is that sense of valuing knowledge. And I suppose the sharing of it.

It's also interesting that someone earlier in this thread called such behaviour sinful:

Just giving all your "influence" away for no reason.

I'm not sure I understand what BlamoPlasmo means by "influence"...? If "influence" is knowledge (or perhaps more accurately, the capacity to acquire sound knowledge) then yeah, perhaps BlamoPlasmo would think my ethics are sinful. He certainly wouldn't be the first! Most people, in most times throughout the recorded history of human civlization, have felt that the pursuit of gnosis is dangerous, deviant, and hubristic (hence why Prometheus and Lucifer were, prior to the late Modern period, viewed as "the bad guys" in cultural stories).

BUT. In my defense, I would argue that giving away the capacity to acquire sound knowledge / gnosis is NOT being done "for no reason". On the contrary, I'd do it

1. because I feel it is the ethical thing to do.
2. because I cannot claim to hold truths about the world with absolute certainty, I think the most utilitarian course of action is to free other people, so that they can "check my work" (so to speak). i.e. a society of people with equal access to gnosis, is a society of people who can peer review one another, and (ultimately) correct any mistakes that arise from individual errors in reasoning.

 

[Blamo]

I'm not sure I understand what BlamoPlasmo means by "influence"...?

Basically the ability to affect the world around you. Everybody and everything have their sphere of influence, if you don't maintain it and use it somebody else will move in to fill the vacuum.