There is no external world...

mr spongecake said:
Qualia does not exist, consciousness is a bullshit new-age phenomena trying to rip off Buddhist practices even though it's explicit in Theravada Buddhism
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Ironically it made me think of Nondualism, though I’m rather new to that specific subject. Isn’t Qualia a type of Physicalism? I checked what I could before online before asking, but they’re pretty vague and short noted on “Qualia,” and anything related.
Cheerlead-in-Chief said:
"A newborn will open their eyes and consider life utterly worthless"
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He said what now, that doesn’t even make sense.



I personally like the idea of Nondualism, but even I’ll admit it’s far fetched claims, even a former teacher of Nondualism - Scott Kiloby talks about it.
This Quali shit doesn’t seem much different, albeit I am pretty ignorant on its depth bc this post does not explain it very well.
 
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Knight of the Rope said:
Based and solipsism-pilled.

I'll go you one further. There is no mind. Not only does nothing that (you think) you're perceiving actually exist, you yourself don't actually exist. It's infinitely more likely that the whirling gases of the infinite void came together just long enough to form some facsimile of a consciousness that tricked itself into thinking it's you and deluded itself into thinking that it has lived your entire life so far, than it is for anything that actually exists to actually exist.

So smoke on that one, buddy.
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I'm not convinced. I think it's much more likely for consciousness-snippets to exist in actual physical worlds than to exist as a temporary randomly-formed mind in the cosmos somewhere. The context in which I exist is too well-structured for it to be likely a result of an arbitrary solitary mind. I think it's more likely that through-out all reality, stars and planets are so much more common than solitary minds, that the infinitesimally smaller fraction of earth planets containing myself heavily out-weigh solitary minds that are convinced they're myself on earth.
 
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Fester Chavez said:
I think it's much more likely for consciousness-snippets to exist in an actual physical worlds than to exist as a temporary randomly-formed mind in the cosmos somewhere.
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I’m fairly sure this is the line of reasoning I follow as well, while David Loy’s book on Nondualism is a very interesting, and provoking belief. It just, reaches into the ridiculous at times, at least from my ‘perspective.’
Space & Time not being real is just really odd for me to wrap my head around as a concept, the Subject - Object Illusion is no less ambiguous as well, with a certain round about way of deterring criticisms as being dualistic and erroneous in nature because of it.
 
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johnsinslot said:
Ironically it made me think of Nondualism, though I’m rather new to that specific subject. Isn’t Qualia a type of Physicalism? I checked what I could before online before asking, but they’re pretty vague and short noted on “Qualia,” and anything related.

He said what now, that doesn’t even make sense.
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Yes, I was going to counter argue with my own life at the risk of power leveling:
  1. A baby waking up laughing
But @RMQualtrough would never respond to my replies and was selective.
 
Just A Butt said:
get out
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I really wanted OP to formulate a serious conversation on the planes of reality in the Sonichu world.

If Sonichu believes he's real, is he? Is his external world real? He can interact with it, therefore it must be real. Well, real to him. So if it's real to him and he believes he's real, then he must be real and we must acknowledge this fact.
If the creator of the world is the placeholder for "God", then CWC must be a god.

That means all fanfict is also real.

That's the conversation we need.
 
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heathercho said:
I really wanted OP to formulate a serious conversation on the planes of reality in the Sonichu world.

If Sonichu believes he's real, is he? Is his external world real? He can interact with it, therefore it must be real. Well, real to him. So if it's real to him and he believes he's real, then he must be real and we must acknowledge this fact.
If the creator of the world is the placeholder for "God", then CWC must be a god.

That means all fanfict is also real.

That's the conversation we need.
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Too bad he won't. I'm sure he's a fan of Arthur Shopeheimer...maybe or anything that appeals to his edgy beliefs that humanity should have blown it's collective brains out.
 
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Cheerlead-in-Chief said:
Yes, I was going to counter argue with my own life at the risk of power leveling:
  1. A baby waking up laughing
But @RMQualtrough would never respond to my replies and was selective.
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Well that would be a risk, I suppose.
If you take Nondualism at face value
Which even Scott learned not to do the hard way:
Shame kept me living alone with all of this. After all, if I am a nondual teacher, how could I possibly explain all of this? How could all of this be happening AFTER the awakening? Did I miss something? Am I not really awake? Those were all questions that arose at one point or another.

The truth is, the shift into presence was really just a beginning. It was the beginning of seeing everything within my conditioning that had been hidden and unconscious all my life.

So, I’m not really following this post toooo much, but I’m still waiting on clarification on Qualia as I search it around.
From what I read, it kinda boils down to the Knowledge Argument, and Property Dualism..I think?
 
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johnsinslot said:
I’m fairly sure this the line I of reasoning my I follow as well, while David Loy’s book on Nondualism is a very interesting, and provoking belief. It just, reaches into the ridiculous at times, at least from my ‘perspective.’
Space & Time not being real is just really odd for me to wrap my head around as a concept, the Subject - Object Illusion is no less ambiguous as well, with a certain round about way of deterring criticisms as being dualistic and erroneous in nature because of it.
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Kinda trying to think about what kind of existence I would need to experience that would convince me I might be a solitary brain conjuring everything up. It'd probably be extremely dream-like but with no actual basis to any grounding reality.
 
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Cheerlead-in-Chief said:
Too bad he won't. I'm sure he's a fan of Arthur Shopeheimer...maybe or anything that appeals to his edgy beliefs that humanity should have blown it's collective brains out.
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If OP is a character in my fanfict and this version believes he's real and his external world is real and he disagrees with OP's assertion of the original post, in turn wishing to annihilate OP for fucking up his world view... when does OP die? His external world is not real because his belief in it isn't there. He cannot provide proof that his interaction with his external world is tangible.
I have created him, therefore I am God. I'm a spiteful god, so I am removing him from his existence.

Who was OP really? Where did he post to, if his external world wasn't real all along?
 
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Fester Chavez said:
Kinda trying to think about what kind of existence I would need to experience that would convince me I might be a solitary brain conjuring everything up. It'd probably be extremely dream-like but with no actual basis to any grounding reality.
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The hardest thing about these topics is the extent to which we allow our imagination to spread.
I’ll play sophism, this is from my notes on Nondualism:

Before your brain retrieves the correlated names to the things you are looking at, you have no idea what you’re seeing. Once you draw that idea/knowledge of the object you’re gazing at, you know see it/them. Without those past: memories, ideas, concepts, knowledge, you’d see no separation

Without memories, or experience we’d see nothin, no boundaries, no lines, no hard edges.
What’s your retort to that claim of oneness David Loy (albeit I summarized my notes big time) against Separateness/Separation?
 
RMQualtrough said:
Describe it.
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You wish for him to describe something even Locke had trouble getting across to many?
The knowledge of External World, according to Locke who I believe was/is the leading Philosopher on External World, is the knowledge of the existence of something that is distinct from our mind, the real world to be more specific. You can have the knowledge of known you exist right now presently, you can also know the phone/computer you’re looking at exists. As you’re interacting with it, that also means you exist, that’s the basics.
 
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mr spongecake said:
I've said this before and I'll say it again: "consciousness", "mind", etc. do not exist. Every time I ask for some definition I get drivel, or a circular definition. Your self-referential thinking is due to your default mode network. We know for a fact chemicals induced cause a change in "consciousness" - it's literally just your brain. Qualia does not exist, consciousness is a bullshit new-age phenomena trying to rip off Buddhist practices even though it's explicit in Theravada Buddhism that even your mind/consciousness/whatever is just an illusion. These faggots never wanna take it a step further because they'll only use qualia pseud bullshit to try and deny aspects of materialism they don't like.
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You don't understand Buddhism.

Consciousness is empty. "Things" can be perceived, the perceiver is "no-thing". The two are dependent upon each other to exist:

Picture yourself in nothing but a black void. No thoughts no emotions just a perception of a black void. Now remove the black void. Where is the observer now? When there is no observed there is no observer. It is fundamentally nothing.
 
The practicalities of my views on existence and death are such that I am cautiously terrified/optimistic that I am never going to die. I am terrified because I suspect the methods by which my consciousness can be justifiably indefinitely extended in the reality I currently recognize are probably prone to monkey-paw-ification. Like maybe I make a really bad enemy who decides to lock me into my mind, and do all that they can to keep me alive. Or perhaps as I age and go senile, my brain deteriorates sufficiently that the now-chaotic continuance of my consciousness can justifiably loop over and over from one near-dead instance of my self to another, and never end.
I am somewhat optimistic because I think I might have some control over my fate, at least probabilistically. I think the key to it is to make a suicide bargain with yourself. That if life ever goes over some thresh-hold of suck, then you do all that you can to kill yourself. From that person's perspective he won't ever succeed, but he will successfully thin out that branch of possibility, sort of like pruning a tree. The main issue with me is I'm not actually that confident that I would go through with the bargain.
 
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RMQualtrough said:
Consciousness is empty. "Things" can be perceived, the perceiver is "no-thing". The two are dependent upon each other to exist:
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Awareness, wholeness, oneness, or we could call it consciousness, takes form as everything that appears. Consciousness is not some blank empty slate behind everything. ~ David Loy


RMQualtrough said:
Where is the observer now? When there is no observed there is no observer. It is fundamentally nothing.
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Okay, so we’re definitely at the Subject - Object Illusion now, what’s your take on this then?

Objects are created in your mind, from perceived ideas, notions, or concepts which in turn is just consciousness. Seeing is just thinking of an imagined reality, believing we are experiencing the world; when you’re just experiencing what you’ve experienced itself, objectless consciousness. If objects are objectively real, you can’t say that consciousness is beyond/prior to time/space. These are just spatio, and temporal concepts with no independent/singular application from time and space
.
 
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johnsinslot said:
You wish for him to describe something even Locke had trouble getting across to many?
The knowledge of External World, according to Locke who I believe was/is the leading Philosopher on External World, is the knowledge of the existence of something that is distinct from our mind, the real world to be more specific. You can have the knowledge of known you exist right now presently, you can also know the phone/computer you’re looking at exists. As you’re interacting with it, that also means you exist, that’s the basics.
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Phones and computers appear in mind.

Lots of things can be said to exist dependent upon how you choose to define the word exist. Do dreams exist? Most people would draw a line and say no. If you choose to say some illusory things should be considered real, then you may well say the phone and computer are real.
 
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