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Law said:
The discussion on CAIS is interesting. I think something to keep in mind is that even if you do make an exception for an individual with CAIS, loony troons like Stefonknee Wolscht, Kevin Gibes, ADF, Blaire White, and Jonathan Yaniv are NOT individuals with CAIS. Some people having CAIS doesn't make wierd men women.
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We are also talking about thousands and thousands of years of tradition. Woman is a social category for people born with a vagina and not a penis. Women with CAIS don't even have ambiguous genitalia, they have completely normal-appearing vulvas with a vagina. Retroactively changing the definition of the word because of chromosomes doesn't make as much sense as keeping the traditional common-sense definition. It also neatly destroys all the troon related intersex arguments. Once you wade into the muck arguing chromosomes, the proper frame for this debate is already lost because why are we discussing intersex if the conversation is men with normal XY trooning out and creeping on women? Intersex isn't troonism. Women are people born with vulvas/vaginas. People born with penises are men. And troons don't get to use intersex people as wedges.

For other intersex conditions that do have ambiguous genitalia, that can be sorted out on a case by case basis but that has nothing to do with troons.
 
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behindyourightnow said:
I think a layperson (not medical textbook) definition that excludes people raised as girls who have vulvas and who often go through female puberty (just without periods) and often have vaginas of normal depth is getting a little pedantic.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but there is at least one woman with CAIS who has given birth to children with her own womb (although it required hormones and donor eggs)
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I do kind of doubt that someone with CAIS alone would be able to get pregnant because, as far as I know, they do not have uteruses. The vagina just lead to a dead end. So it's likely that the person also has a different genetic mutation/condition that isn't just CAIS alone - I'm not sure when the case is happened but at the time there were probably less comprehensive tool to check intersex disorders and one may get misdiagnosed. There's a case where someone with XY chromosome who has a complete set of female reproductive organs, and could produce egg. This is not CAIS.. but I'm willing to say this is female, in practical sense.

When it comes to Androgen Insensitivity syndrome. I personally see them as truly male due to internal testes, even if I'm not going to know if I see one in real life. Their self conception tend to be different in each person to. (They do have some differences in bone development and body proportions compared to normal females. And some advantages in sports, but that's getting pedantic...)

In current societal organisation level, it's probably more practical to say that they're 'women'. But to say that we need to stick to this because it's a tradition is stupid. We don't think that God created thunder anymore, or there are 4 humours in our bodies that caused illnesses. The knowledge of humanity changes. In the true GC sense, I'd just say that they're 'what they are', basically just their physical being unfiltered by categories and definition and gender identity shouldn't matter. There exists the physical reality beyond human language.
 
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behindyourightnow said:
The reason many of us are caught up with this is because it is a common MtF talking point to say "I bet you can't even define 'woman' in a way that excludes trans women without also excluding infertile women!" and it is good to have an answer to that.
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I would rather not play their gay little game where they can always move the goalposts.
 
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ash9990 said:
It's just sad how a 27 year old man went from having a gf with conservative Christian family that he could've married and procreated with, but he was lost to the AGP and is now "bisexual". Ranting_Tran 's gf has officially broken up with him.

I'm happy for his ex gf, she dodged a bullet.
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He tweeted a week ago... troons love this image for some reason (warning: islamic content)
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His Asian parents are disappointed.
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Starting to selfie post for some attention and "omg look how far I've come". How long until he starts aching like your run of the mill twitter tranny?
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Dude, you look the same, just with long hair but ok. I'm starting to think estrogen works as a placebo. Hormones impacts mood greatly and he might feel different but he looks the same. Well, good luck with your surgeries.

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https://twitter.com/Ranting_Trans

Some more degeneracy I stumbled upon
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This guy is a massive chaser and he does pencil drawings of troons' porn pictures and he replies to them with the drawing. I'm not going to post them because they make me physically ill but here's his twitter. https://twitter.com/BiLewd/media

Anyway, I went though his likes and he likes a bunch of porn accounts (shocking). But then I encountered some uncanney valley shit. The amount of filters being used by trannies is insane. Idk if it has been discussed before on here but the Chinese AI filters that changes facial structures and body shape is being milked to get money and clout off of coomers.

This account with almost 250K followers has some convincing pictures and videos but I noticed he (or whatever it is) barely moves in his videos:

https://twitter.com/ArianaAngelsxo/status/1273014278409326598?s=20
https://twitter.com/ArianaAngelsxo/status/1394700830071263234?s=20
https://twitter.com/ArianaAngelsxo/status/1269383338151890944?s=20
https://twitter.com/ArianaAngelsxo/status/1410270132333600768?s=20

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It's heavily shopped

Deepland Bystander said:
I do kind of doubt that someone with CAIS alone would be able to get pregnant because, as far as I know, they do not have uteruses. The vagina just lead to a dead end. So it's likely that the person also has a different genetic mutation/condition that isn't just CAIS alone - I'm not sure when the case is happened but at the time there were probably less comprehensive tool to check intersex disorders and one may get misdiagnosed. There's a case where someone with XY chromosome who has a complete set of female reproductive organs, and could produce egg. This is not CAIS.. but I'm willing to say this is female, in practical sense.

When it comes to Androgen Insensitivity syndrome. I personally see them as truly male due to internal testes, even if I'm not going to know if I see one in real life. Their self conception tend to be different in each person to. (They do have some differences in bone development and body proportions compared to normal females. And some advantages in sports, but that's getting pedantic...)

In current societal organisation level, it's probably more practical to say that they're 'women'. But to say that we need to stick to this because it's a tradition is stupid. We don't think that God created thunder anymore, or there are 4 humours in our bodies that caused illnesses. The knowledge of humanity changes. In the true GC sense, I'd just say that they're 'what they are', basically just their physical being unfiltered by categories and definition and gender identity shouldn't matter. There exists the physical reality beyond human language.
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Agree, it's a lie. People with CAIS and PAIS have genes that encode for male gonads only. Period.
 
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Deepland Bystander said:
I do kind of doubt that someone with CAIS alone would be able to get pregnant because, as far as I know, they do not have uteruses.
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If you had bothered to click on the link you would not have had to write this paragraph.

Mariposa Electrique said:
Agree, it's a lie. People with CAIS and PAIS have genes that encode for male gonads only. Period.
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Yes, the story with the person who did multiple news interviews showing off her newborn twins is a all 'lie' created entirely to deceive the 1.5% of the population who know what AIS is.

www.youtube.com

Lady told she was genetically a man has given birth to twin girls.

A woman told she was genetically a man with no reproductive organs when she was 19 has given birth to twin girls. Hayley Haynes, 28, had miracle babies Aver...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

www.youtube.com

Woman Without A Womb Gives Birth To Twins | Good Morning Britain

Hayley Haynes, who was told she would never have children because she was born with no reproductive organs, has given birth to twins.Subscribe to our YouTube...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
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Mariposa Electrique said:
Sounds like a man too. I've met plenty of women over 6 foot who still sound and look like actual women just tall. In fact. his torso is too long to be a damn woman. Forget about all the other obvious signs like face, forehead, hands, and walk. He sounds like what would happen if you kicked Kermit the Frog in the balls.

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No one has gone into what a massive dick move it is for Stephanie Barrett to attempt to go stealth while competing as an archer. Not just competing against natal women, but giving smug interviews saying 'oh, I just picked up archery for fun when I was 37, and I just happened to be better than everyone else, tee hee, golly gosh.' What must a female archer feel like reading that and not knowing that Stephanie is trans?

But again, who cares about the feelings and dreams of women when there is a middle-aged white man who needs validation?
 
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behindyourightnow said:
The reason many of us are caught up with this is because it is a common MtF talking point to say "I bet you can't even define 'woman' in a way that excludes trans women without also excluding infertile women!" and it is good to have an answer to that.
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Adult human female.

Adult= Fully grown
Human= Of the species homo sapien
Female= Belonging to the sex class with the ability to produce large gametes

Not every female can produce eggs, but only females produce eggs. Not every female can menstruate, but only females menstruate. Not every female can get pregnant, but only females get pregnant.
 
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behindyourightnow said:
If you had bothered to click on the link you would not have had to write this paragraph.


Yes, the story with the person who did multiple news interviews showing off her newborn twins is a all 'lie' created entirely to deceive the 1.5% of the population who know what AIS is.

www.youtube.com

Lady told she was genetically a man has given birth to twin girls.

A woman told she was genetically a man with no reproductive organs when she was 19 has given birth to twin girls. Hayley Haynes, 28, had miracle babies Aver...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

www.youtube.com

Woman Without A Womb Gives Birth To Twins | Good Morning Britain

Hayley Haynes, who was told she would never have children because she was born with no reproductive organs, has given birth to twins.Subscribe to our YouTube...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
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I have never come across any journal or articles which confirm this. I don't believe crap on talk shows.
 
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Troon selfie dump!

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This one was technically posted in a femboy subreddit, but he's questioning!
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This was posted in r/mtfselfietrain for some reason.


Here he talks about cumming and wanting to kill mental health professionals.
 
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Mariposa Electrique said:
This isn't a scholarly article verified by professionals.
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Right, I suppose the logical explanation is that this oddly masculine looking woman with a strong jaw made up the whole story to media and talk shows, at the risk of her lie being easily refuted by family members or close friends or the clinic that treated her, and then failed to pursue any publicity or political clout in the six years since then and quietly went on with her life. A very normal and common thing to do.


Edit: I found a few journal articles about XY pregnancies, apparently she is not the only one.



academic.oup.com

Chimerism in a fertile woman with 46,XY karyotype and female phenotype: Case report

Abstract. We report on the unexpected finding of a 46,XY karyotype in a 30 year-old woman with normal ovarian function and a former pregnancy at 17 years of age
academic.oup.com academic.oup.com
(this lady was a chimera but 99% of her cells were XY)

This one is talking about possible issues in pregnancies (plural) in women with XY so there is enough in the scientific literature to start making generalizations and treatment recommendations: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2305050013601219

Put "XY female pregnancy" or words to that effect into Google scholar and you will get a range of them.
 
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behindyourightnow said:
Right, I suppose the logical explanation is that this oddly masculine looking woman with a strong jaw made up the whole story to media and talk shows, at the risk of her lie being easily refuted by family members or close friends or the clinic that treated her, and then failed to pursue any publicity or political clout in the six years since then and quietly went on with her life. A very normal and common thing to do.


Edit: I found a few journal articles about XY pregnancies, apparently she is not the only one.



academic.oup.com

Chimerism in a fertile woman with 46,XY karyotype and female phenotype: Case report

Abstract. We report on the unexpected finding of a 46,XY karyotype in a 30 year-old woman with normal ovarian function and a former pregnancy at 17 years of age
academic.oup.com academic.oup.com

Put "XY female pregnancy" or words to that effect into Google scholar and you will get a range of them.
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Gonadal dygenisis does not equal CAIS. Either way, this would still be exceedingly rare, expensive and could never include troons regardless of the age they began HRT.
 
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