Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

-Teach social skills in schools
Children are supposed to learn their own social skills during breaktime and lunchtime. Can you imagine a class lead by a 1000 year old childless feminist teaching children how to socialise? Lesson 1 would be completing a consent form. Lesson 2 would be learning pronouns.

-Encourage students to talk about their feelings with the school shrink on a regular basis
Men do not talk about their feelings.

-Encourage girls to make the first move more often through girls ask dances and the like
It'll never happen. Women like confident men. If a man doesn't have the confidence to introduce himself he's getting nowhere.

-Stop calling women who enjoy having casual sex sluts (by pointing out to men that it would make it a hell of a lot easier to get laid)
It's much more common for women to call women sluts.

-Stop virgin shaming men, making them feel they have to have constant sex to affirm their masculinity (The amount of progressives who do this is baffling)
If you are a man, and you are a virgin on your 21st birthday, that is something to be ashamed of. It's a major milestone in the growing up process that you have missed by three years.
 
Inceldom is just a branch of nihilism that's hyper focused on sex. It's pretty easy to fall into a loop of thinking that you're too ugly to ever have sex and you've already missed the point in life where you should have had sex, so you never will and will spend your life unhappy because you never got to fuck anyone. And from there it's a self fulfilling prophecy, especially if the person has no hobbies or largely male dominated hobbies.

My only question is why they always insist on shooting up places, I mean it makes sense as a method of suicide by cop, but I'd expect more to become serial killers.
 
If you are a man, and you are a virgin on your 21st birthday, that is something to be ashamed of. It's a major milestone in the growing up process that you have missed by three years.
That's bullshit, unless you mean to also say that a man ought to be married by the age of 18 as well. Plenty of men have sex by that time and have nothing to show for it in their sense of maturity, because there's functionally nothing of value in having sex for the sake of having sex or meeting some kind of deadline-- as opposed to having sex to procreate and strengthen your bonds with your partner.

The implication of such a statement is that you ought to worry about "losing your virginity" by the time you're 18 and it doesn't matter whether you lose it to someone you trust or an outright prostitute. But what exactly are such encounters supposed to impart? It doesn't foster understanding of a woman by itself (if anything, it reduces them to an object that facilitates an objective).
 
Inceldom is just a branch of nihilism that's hyper focused on sex. It's pretty easy to fall into a loop of thinking that you're too ugly to ever have sex and you've already missed the point in life where you should have had sex, so you never will and will spend your life unhappy because you never got to fuck anyone. And from there it's a self fulfilling prophecy, especially if the person has no hobbies or largely male dominated hobbies.

My only question is why they always insist on shooting up places, I mean it makes sense as a method of suicide by cop, but I'd expect more to become serial killers.
That’s a good point. Didn’t Lobster king himself say that if they think ‘all’ the women are rejecting me’ it means change your game up. Takes a lot of ego to think every single woman in the world wants to reject you for an eternity. I imagine before the internet people wouldn‘t read nihilistic posts about it, just do their time at work, sleep, drink and then at the weekend find a whore who needs crack money, learn what sex feels like And repeat it every now and then.
 
Your subconscious or "Id" is formed form birth up to the age of 6, from this point onward you aka "Ego" take over and try your hardest to correct the world according to your subconscious understanding of it. And This is what incels are doing, they're explaining away something they always knew.

Their parents failed them, they were not loved or not loved enough / neglected, so on and so they grew up with insecurities that they later reinforced consciously.
It goes like this:
>a mother acted like you were an inconvenience, or acted cold and detached
>the kid internalizes that she doesn't want him around and because the parent is basically his god at that age he blames himself
>later in life he extends this kind of thinking to all women, despite having a "pretty good" relationship with his mother, he always feels insecure and undesirable
>he then learns about "other incels" and adapts their beliefs, its especially fitting for him since he probably started thinking similar things already, to protect himself

Its kinda easy to deconstruct most of the incel doctrine by understanding the underlaying sentiment its trying to fix:
>All women are evil, selfish, so on
incel feels inferior to women and at their mercy, and since they're not merciful he perceives them as immoral instead
>State mandated girlfriend
incel thinks no woman can like him normally so he has no choice but to enforce it
>Date only virgins
incel feels inferior to other men, and he compares himself to them and thinks everyone else does too, therefore he must find a girl that has no point of comparison because she never had sex

The real solution to the "incel problem" is teaching parents how to be parents and teaching teenagers psychology.
never gonna happen
But the good news is that you can "fix" an incel by confronting his biases and pointing out how and why he adopts them, this in turn cant be done on the internet so the best you can do is just laugh at them hard enough to make them seek psychological help (and pray for this help to be actually worth half a shit most psychiatrists are uneducated scum).
 
Alright. Time for an effortpost.

Incels™ (with a capital I and a trademark symbol) are a cult. I mean that in a 100% literal sense. They have their own saints, their own jargon, their own purity tests, they disown/punish apostates (just look at how they react to incels who eventually escape/have sex), and most importantly, they prey on lonely people. I feel like most people don't understand this about cults. Cults don't target stupid people, or evil people, they target LONELY PEOPLE. And incels (lowercase I) are lonely people almost by definition. Some have male friends and hobbies and jobs, but many of the same factors that contribute to their inceldom make this less likely than average.

So imagine a man, let's say around 25. He feels like he's doing pretty well in life, for the most part. He's a working professional, no supermodel but not bad looking, doesn't go out and party but has a few close friends. But he's never been able to get a girl to give him the time of day. All of his friends and coworkers have girlfriends, some are married, and some might even have kids. And he thinks to himself, "Y'know, I did all the stuff society said I was supposed to do. I went to college, got a good job, got friends, got hobbies, exercised, put myself out there, but ladies still won't talk to me. What's up with that?" This self-perception that they've done the "right things" is often false, but not always. This is another thing that I think people overlook. If we believe in allowing people to date or not date whoever they want (and I do), that means you can do everything "right" and still lose. Lack of success does not prove lack of effort.

We don't live in a just world. Your ability to get a girlfriend has nothing to do with your moral character, and women aren't avoiding certain men because they can "just tell" he's a bad person. Crack addicts and chronic abusers have girlfriends. I'm not saying women ONLY like jerks, far from it, I'm just saying that being an upstanding citizen is demonstrably not a requirement. And when you look at those people and think to yourself "I may not be perfect, but I'm not worse than THAT, and yet I'm still alone", it can sting pretty bad.

Not only that, but there's a strong argument to be made that women have most of the advantages in modern gender dynamics, both legally and socially. Legally, a woman can leave you at any time, and take the kids and half your shit, plus alimony/child support. She gets bored of you in ten years? Tough shit buddy, should've been born psychic. Women can also call sexual harassment over anything or nothing. Actually manage to have sex and she regrets it afterward? Made a slightly off color joke that your female coworker took offense to? The large majority of the time the world and courts will Listen and Believe, and your life is over. Now, of course, most women aren't psychopaths. But when you're a massive fucking sperg who can barely exist in the same room as a woman, it's not always easy to tell, and you start to ask yourself if it's really worth the risk of getting #MeToo'd.

Socially, there are far more men looking for women than the other way around (which seems odd given human gender ratios, but here we are). All a woman has to do to get a date is exist and not be fat. A man has to have all the things I mentioned about concerning jobs and hobbies and friends, and that's the BARE MINIMUM expectation. I've seen men say "I've got all the things society told me to get in order to be attractive to women" only to be met with "So does everybody else, what else you got?" And while I know what the questioner MEANS, it's incredibly demoralizing to feel like Lucy just pulled the damn football away again.

And if you're autistic enough to say any of this OUT LOUD, oh God, the snap backs. "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YOU THINK YOU'RE ENTITLED TO WOMEN'S BODIES! NOBODY OWES YOU SEX! IF YOU REALLY TRIED YOU COULD GET A GIRLFRIEND! IF YOU WERE A BETTER PERSON WOMEN WOULDN'T HATE YOU! IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! WOMEN DID NOTHING WRONG! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

This is not hypothetical, I've seen exactly this kind of response to men merely asking what else they're supposed to do to get women to like them. The Incel™ community, on the other hand, responds "Actually, we noticed that too... sounds like you've had some pretty shitty treatment. Hey, do you have a moment to talk about Our Lord and Savior Elliot Rodger?" And another incel becomes an Incel™.

Now you may be thinking, "But Mr. Pants, you're not describing an average incel. This hypothetical person sounds almost like a borderline normie with a touch of the 'tism." Well, you're right. I'm describing nearly a best case scenario incel. Now imagine how much easier it is to fall into Inceldom when you're a NEET living in your parents' basement.

One last side note. 99% of the time, Inceldom™ (and to some degree, inceldom) is NOT about lack of sex. It's about lack of relationship. This is why incels don't see any point in going to a hooker. They don't want someone to fuck them, they want someone to love them. When incels become Incels™, this manifests in extremely unhealthy and sometimes even violent ways, but the core issue is the same.

Loneliness wears you down, and eventually the things that might've sounded crazy at first eventually start to sound less crazy. After all, they say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Absolute gem of a post. You hit the nail on the fucking head, so close in fact I have to ask if this is from personal experience?

I think a major issue that has perpetuated the incel problem has been the mixing of the term to mean both the cult of Incels (the killers and their followers) and guys who just can't get laid. I would say the majority of incels fall into the later group, they're just socially maladjusted men who are struggling with dating. Why these men end up here varies, personally I attribute it mostly to a society that doesn't give a fuck (and frankly is outright antagonistic) towards young men. When you have a due who is just depressed and lonely, and society treats him like the former cult-like Incel, his depression will turn to bitter resentment. And who will be waiting for him with open arms then? The Incel community of course, they will be the only people to offer him empathy and companionship, and thus he will spiral further. The extreme antagonism towards both kinds of incels is what propagates the majority of them, and the slightest shred of empathy would go a long way in fixing most of them. But of course that will never happen.

I'm speaking from personal experience as someone who was a "normal" incel. I had shit self esteem and bad luck with women, that turned into a complex. The more I was berated and the more the aggressive narrative about incels grew, the more my complex turned towards anger at people. I just wanted to be loved and to feel valuable, but despite my success in all other walks of life, I was made to feel like a freak for not getting my dick wet. I internalized that feeling and otherized myself, which in turn otherized everyone else. I felt like I was marked in some, irredeemable because I didn't touch a pussy before I turned 20. It sounds absurd, but there are plenty of dipshits like this who perpetuate those ideas.
If you are a man, and you are a virgin on your 21st birthday, that is something to be ashamed of. It's a major milestone in the growing up process that you have missed by three years.

I was in a really dark place for a long time. Never wanted to hurt anyone except myself, came close to it a couple times. Eventually I grew out of it, but it was hard to do that without a shred of support or empathy. The thing that ultimately saved me was learning to not give a single concern as to what others think about me. Made me a bit of an asshole, but whatever. Focused entirely on making myself content and what do you know a couple months later my self esteem was fixed and I was dating a girl.

To be clear though, Elliot Rodger types should be rounded up and buried alive. Speds who want to kill random people over pussy aren't worth keeping around.

We really do need a different term for the different incels though. That would be a good first step. Not holding my breath though.
 
Absolute gem of a post. You hit the nail on the fucking head, so close in fact I have to ask if this is from personal experience?
It's a combination of personal experience and observation. For power level hiding reasons, all I'm going to say about personal experience is that I ended up with free magic powers despite my best efforts and I've had to actively choose not to be bitter about it.

(PS - I am not seeking advice from KF of all places. Not talking to you, the person I'm responding to, just saying in general. I already have a shrink.)
 
If a person believes they're unfuckable due to whatever factor we should probably just let them stay under that impression until they expire. They obviously weren't going to contribute much of anything to the gene pool or society in the first place. Things are so violent these days that a few more school shooters and shoe bombers will probably go completely unnoticed amongst all of the gun crime and perennial rioting we see anyway, it literally doesn't matter anymore.

I think this is kind of a temporary thing anyway since overall people are becoming more isolated and less emphasis is being placed on sex, if any. There's a surge in metrosexual types right now especially amongst the alphabet people, but as they age into senescence the next generations are going to be more or less neutered by porn overload and the fact that people will have stopped socializing the conventional way.

There will always be a small population who are certain they need to have sex but can't for one reason or another; those people will probably always be incels especially as humans lose the ability to remember how to have a relationship at all, but they'll be seen as even more of a weird outlier than they already are.
 
If a person believes they're unfuckable due to whatever factor we should probably just let them stay under that impression until they expire. They obviously weren't going to contribute much of anything to the gene pool or society in the first place.
2 digit iq take. How does having low self esteem translate into being useless? That is absolute nonsense.
 
2 digit iq take. How does having low self esteem translate into being useless? That is absolute nonsense.
I'm skeptical of the idea that low self-esteem is something that can be recovered from as easily as its made out to be. I think we hear far too much from the minority who do somehow overcome it and little to nothing at all from the majority who don't. Society is trending much more antisocial and self-hating, and I think there are more than just cultural factors driving this perception.

Its probably just better to abandon these people. We'll shortly be overwhelmed with their numbers.
 
I'm skeptical of the idea that low self-esteem is something that can be recovered from as easily as its made out to be. I think we hear far too much from the minority who do somehow overcome it and little to nothing at all from the majority who don't. Society is trending much more antisocial and self-hating, and I think there are more than just cultural factors driving this perception.

Its probably just better to abandon these people. We'll shortly be overwhelmed with their numbers.
It's not easy to recover, but it has no weight on how useful you are. People can be successful and hate themselves, there is no connection.
 
It's not easy to recover, but it has no weight on how useful you are. People can be successful and hate themselves, there is no connection.
I think they can to an extent, but its a temporary state of affairs at best and will last only until they burn out. Right now society seems to be geared towards cutting people loose at the precise moment they burn out or perhaps a bit before it, but that model requires the labor market to be more favorable to corporations so they can more quickly replace people. Eventually we'll reach a sort of critical mass though where too many people are burning out and there aren't enough people to replace them quickly enough. Or at least we were, the plague shook up that forecast a little but I think its just delayed it at best.
 
I think they can to an extent, but its a temporary state of affairs at best and will last only until they burn out. Right now society seems to be geared towards cutting people loose at the precise moment they burn out or perhaps a bit before it, but that model requires the labor market to be more favorable to corporations so they can more quickly replace people. Eventually we'll reach a sort of critical mass though where too many people are burning out and there aren't enough people to replace them quickly enough. Or at least we were, the plague shook up that forecast a little but I think its just delayed it at best.
i dont know what kind of experience you have but where i live people are not preverbal matches, or batteries, they dont just "run out".
maybe you mean that people get old at some point and are then eventually unable to work? if so you really should word yourself better.

but back to self esteem, it can be fixed, it can be fixed ,multiple times if need be and its not cause to throw someone away because hes "useless"
this quasi-utilitarian approach is really silly, life is not just a loss-to-benefit equation
 
but back to self esteem, it can be fixed, it can be fixed ,multiple times if need be and its not cause to throw someone away because hes "useless"
this quasi-utilitarian approach is really silly, life is not just a loss-to-benefit equation
There are plenty(some, a few?) of us who have 0 skills/luck with women yet are perfectly good at contributing to society in our worker roles. Heck they even pay me and keep giving me more money, so I'm apparently doing ok at the pretending to be socially(work) competent.
 
i dont know what kind of experience you have but where i live people are not preverbal matches, or batteries, they dont just "run out".
maybe you mean that people get old at some point and are then eventually unable to work? if so you really should word yourself better.

but back to self esteem, it can be fixed, it can be fixed ,multiple times if need be and its not cause to throw someone away because hes "useless"
this quasi-utilitarian approach is really silly, life is not just a loss-to-benefit equation
I’m assuming you believe in social acceptance so I have a question. If a child is bullied at a young age do they internalise it to such an extent that they prove to themselves those bullies were correct? And that in fact a bully has more resilience when he leaves school.
 
I’m assuming you believe in social acceptance
I believe social acceptance in children is directly related to parental acceptance. Otherwise im not sure what you mean.
I’m assuming you believe in social acceptance so I have a question. If a child is bullied at a young age do they internalise it to such an extent that they prove to themselves those bullies were correct?
Depends on the age of the child (1-6 yes, 7-8 likely), perceived status of "bullies" and preexisting beliefs. Its all about reinforcement.
But generally yes, a small child is likely to blame itself rather than its "better".
And that in fact a bully has more resilience when he leaves school.
No, this is not a zero-sum game. If the bully is a child he is most likely displacing anger at someone who harmed him and trying to establish control, but this is just a coping mechanism, it wont have an actual positive impact on his self esteem. It is often said that children are cruel, but they are rarely cruel without a reason. In a situation where the bully is naturally malicious he is going to build confidence no matter if he actually bullies or not.

Essentially being confident is a natural state of being, while losing confidence is "acquired", then reinforced.
 
If the bully is a child he is most likely displacing anger at someone who harmed him and trying to establish control, but this is just a coping mechanism,
imagine if you defended weak classes with the same energy
it wont have an actual positive impact on his self esteem. It is often said that children are cruel, but they are rarely cruel without a reason. In a situation where the bully is naturally malicious he is going to build confidence no matter if he actually bullies or not.
Confidence is outward appearance. If a bully stays looking powerful all his/her friends later in life will assume he’s never been a bully. The bully will adapt to environment.
Essentially being confident is a natural state of being, while losing confidence is "acquired", then reinforced.
Agree. School creates a class based environment to prepare children for how they will be met by others.
 
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