Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

[DetectiveDuBois]

why?

Fair point. Nihilism should be a right too.

 

[Mr. 305]

I'm mostly fed up with the constant double standards, even on boards like these with always telling guys to improve themselves... but this never applies to women. And there are plenty of millennial/Gen Z women that desperately need to face some responsibility for their actions, which will never happen.

I'm a retard and am therefore confused, how do you propose women improve themselves? Do you mean in the way incel men are told to get a job, stop being a tard and work on their personality? Or do you mean an other way like stop being e-whores? Also what actions do women need to take responsibility for?

I'm not sure about that-- I suspect insisting that women be as accountable as men in a society where they have comparable access to it seems like it'd have no impact on their dating pool but would improve the quality of their relationships. Even if we were batting closer to the notion of "career", there are plenty of ways that a woman could improve themselves without shrinking their dating pool (such as learning domestic skills like not burning the cereal).

That aside, is their dating pool shrinking (up to a certain point, anyways) necessarily a bad thing? I could only imagine a wider dating pool would encourage them to monkeybranch more if they're so inclined, which leaves them miserable in the long term and inconveniences the men monkeybranched off of.

Again what should women be taking accountability for? Being whores? because there are plenty of men who are whores as well.

I do think the internet specifically things like tinder and onlyfans have really messed up gen z and millennial's views of relationships both for men and women. Rampant hookup culture sucks for young people who are actually looking for relationships. When you look at things like Tinder you can really see the difference men and women face. Men have the problem of being overlooked because women have to many options and find themselves with a low number of matches and therefore swiping on every single women. This then leads to women having an overabundance of options where because these online spaces don't allow you to show off your personality leads to women solely picking men based off of superficial aspects like attractiveness and job prospects. Thus the cycle continues. Onlyfans and porn are a whole other beast but basically the internet fucked this generations ability to socially interact with each other and form genuine connections with people.

 

[shortstack]

A man needs to stay valuable (career) and a woman needs to stay (realistically) pure if they choose to go for the heterosexual marriage life story.

I honestly don't buy that. The clinical and, frankly, antiquated way you and other incels seem to examine people and couples is really part of why they can't form meaningful relationships with the opposite sex.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

As a former incel and now nearcel that's been with a few rotund women and plenty of escorts, I'm at the point where I don't want to deal with women beyond casual friends.

Today, marriage and merely living with a woman for an extended period of time is unquestionably a terrible contract for any man to agree to.

I'm mostly fed up with the constant double standards, even on boards like these with always telling guys to improve themselves... but this never applies to women. And there are plenty of millennial/Gen Z women that desperately need to face some responsibility for their actions, which will never happen.

A lot of people need to be more responsible. It’s something that older generations failed to teach. However, if women didn’t have any standards they were held to then fashion and makeup wouldn’t be such big industries.

The main thing I've learned from incels are the worst effected seem to have genuinely crippling autism. Like legitimately. I can't think of any other reason why you could be so disconnected from the reality of society- not realising how your own shitty personality shows through when you post about how you want hot women to get raped and murdered as some kind of revenge for not getting your dick wet.

I have noticed this as well. A lot tend to be focused on sex and to be honest it reminds me of mtf trannies. Sex doesn’t change who you are and it won’t magically turn someone into a gigachad.

Something they fail to understand because they’re autists is that women are more sensitive to behavior, speech, and socialization. So a lot of autists assume it’s because of their looks, which often they’re extremely picky of themselves, but fail to realize it’s because they’re off putting. In some ways attributing it to looks is easier because looks can be changed or improved. It’s more difficult to stop being autistic. A lot of them also aren’t interested in relationships, including friendships, and aren’t interested in investing the time, emotions, and effort into starting let alone continuing a relationship. Many are also less willing to admit they have personality issues because that’d hurt their pride, especially if they have aspergers.

*Edit* I also think a lot of them have unrealistic expectations on looks. Models, male and female, look so great in photos because of age, dieting, makeup, lighting, editing, etc. Women in particular will look different in the morning than they did in the evening. However, since a lot of them are really judgemental on looks, and are autists, normies can tell they’re being judged so it’s off putting.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Again what should women be taking accountability for? Being whores?

I was thinking more broadly. In our society, men are forced to take responsibility, whereas it's not at all difficult to find women making excuses for themselves or other people being willing to make excuses for said women. The most immediate example that comes to mind is women being given more lenient sentences across all races, as well as how we as a society handle female-on-male sexual assault and rape.

 

[DetectiveDuBois]

Again what should women be taking accountability for? Being whores? because there are plenty of men who are whores as well.

In general a man is being a twat if he deceives people about who he is to gain sexual partners. If someone awesome and sociable is giving women a good time and they leave the encounter better off then it’s a mutual gain. A woman being a whore negatively means that she makes herself less attractive (develops a 1000 cock stare, doesn’t go to therapy) and continues acting happy online while her life at home is a different story.

I honestly don't buy that. The clinical and, frankly, antiquated way you and other incels seem to examine people and couples is really part of why they can't form meaningful relationships with the opposite sex.

Okay. For the sake of argument would a man said female needs/wants be comfortable with a shady past?

 

[Mr. 305]

I was thinking more broadly. In our society, men are forced to take responsibility, whereas it's not at all difficult to find women making excuses for themselves or other people being willing to make excuses for said women. The most immediate example that comes to mind is women being given more lenient sentences across all races, as well as how we as a society handle female-on-male sexual assault and rape.

Ok I see what you mean, yeah the way our society treats female rapists and pedos is fucked up. But I see many men also make excuses for these women for example with female pedos you will see some teacher groom and rape her middle school student and then men in the comments will be like "wish that were me" or "he is so lucky" that's pretty fucked up. But yeah I agree with you women like that should be held accountable for their actions.

 

[shortstack]

boards like these with always telling guys to improve themselves... but this never applies to women.

It doesn't apply to women because there's an insane abundance of resources they have at their disposal to improve themselves with compared to men. Women have overwhelmingly more support from other women than men do from other men. That's part of the whole basis for feminism. We don't need to tell women how they can improve themselves because most of them don't need to hear it from us. That's why you aren't going to hear about a femcel mass shooter in the news, or why most people haven't even heard of femcels.

And there are plenty of millennial/Gen Z women that desperately need to face some responsibility for their actions, which will never happen.

What actions?

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Okay. For the sake of argument would a man said female needs/wants be comfortable with a shady past?

You might need to rephrase that question because it's worded a little strangely, but I think I have the general idea.
It depends on the man, and it depends on the woman. I don't think there should be any definitive answer for whether a man should be comfortable with a potential partner with a "shady past", because it's all relative. If you could be more specific, it would help.

 

[DetectiveDuBois]

You might need to rephrase that question because it's worded a little strangely, but I think I have the general idea.
It depends on the man, and it depends on the woman. I don't think there should be any definitive answer for whether a man should be comfortable with a potential partner with a "shady past", because it's all relative. If you could be more specific, it would help.

It’s exhausting talking to you. Read this as it’s how you sound:

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YOU THINK YOU'RE ENTITLED TO WOMEN'S BODIES! NOBODY OWES YOU SEX! IF YOU REALLY TRIED YOU COULD GET A GIRLFRIEND! IF YOU WERE A BETTER PERSON WOMEN WOULDN'T HATE YOU! IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! WOMEN DID NOTHING WRONG! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

[shortstack]

It’s exhausting talking to you. Read this as it’s how you sound:

Dude, I've been nothing but civil with you this whole time. Rephrase the fucking question using plain fucking English and I'll answer it.

would a man said female needs/wants be comfortable with a shady past?

Are you having a fucking stroke? Does that fucking look like it makes sense to you?

 

[RMQualtrough]

Women and attraction is a 100% solved topic.

People are Chinese fingertrapping with their approaches to these things, pulling away with schemes and personas and pickup lines tightens the trap.

It's a solved thing. It's completely known.

 

[DetectiveDuBois]

Dude, I've been nothing but civil with you this whole time. Rephrase the fucking question using plain fucking English and I'll answer it.

Are you having a fucking stroke? Does that fucking look like it makes sense to you?

An attractive man doesn’t want an emotionally stunted woman. My point is that they’re making it worse for themselves and you are saying everyone should love everyone.

 

[shortstack]

An attractive man doesn’t want an emotionally stunted woman. My point is that they’re making it worse for themselves and you are saying everyone should love everyone.

First off, I never said "everyone should love everyone". I don't know how you got that impression. All I've been saying is that when you examine people in a bubble and make assumptions, you are shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to forming genuine relationships with people. I'm not saying you should have good relations with everyone. I'm saying that once you stop acting like you've got people "figured out", you'll actually start understanding that you know fuck all about people, and that you should open yourself up to learning how people actually behave.
As for your statement about emotionally stunted women: again, it's all relative. You can say the exact same thing about attractive women not wanting emotionally stunted men. It depends. If you're postulating that it's a universal truth that all attractive men don't want emotionally stunted women, then you're absolutely wrong, and I hopefully shouldn't have to explain how ridiculous it is that you actually believe that.

Furthermore, I want to clarify something about our interactions: I have been, or have tried to be, completely civil in this discussion. If you look in the incels.is thread and see some of the replies I posted over there, you'll see I'm perfectly capable of just taking the position of most other dudes on this site and telling you to go fuck yourself.
I thought that we were cool, in plain words. I don't understand why you felt the need to have an outburst like that, but if you're seriously exhausted with this discussion, then just shut the fuck up and reply to someone else. You're in no position to be acting like a fucking sped when everyone else here has treated you with relative respect.

 

[Chicken Picnic]

Yet the environment many of them choose to adopt is one where they're constantly told that their looks will keep them from being happy; this environment being an incel community. As I said in my conclusion, incels breed incels. A troubled man doesn't naturally choose to adopt the lingo and beliefs held by other incels just by browsing Twitter a lot.
The argument I'm trying to make is that more people should be aware of how a man with crippling emotional issues can become an incel, and why that's dangerous both to him and his peers. It's dangerous because of how the incel community online radicalizes men with nowhere else to go.


I'm sure there are a few people in the community who genuinely do give advice to others in order to help them "ascend", but this shouldn't distract from how the majority of people on sites like incels.is actively encourage continued, repeated negative behaviors in order to reinforce the idea that they're all without hope, and the only thing they can blame is everyone else.

---

This is something I observed when working on my paper about incels. The unfortunate truth is that men with asperger's are at the highest risk to execute extreme violent behavior as self-identifying incels that are/were actively engaged in those communities. I'll list off a few:

Alek Minassian (Toronto van attack)
Asperger's Syndrome, attended special ed classes. [source]

Nikolas Cruz (Stoneman Douglas high school shooter)
ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome, attended a school for children with learning disabilities [source, statement in investigative report]

Chris Harper-Mercer (Oregon college shooter)
Asperger's Syndrome, medicated until the age of 18 when he decided to stop taking them [source, statement by mother]

Cole Carini (would-be shopping mall bomber)
ADHD and autism, diagnosed in 4th grade [source, sworn statement by mother]

There are attacks that we don't have a lot of information about as well, such as what's happened in the past year, and even some of the older killers that haven't been tested for the disorder.

It makes sense, with emotional dysregulation being a big part of ASD related conditions and a tendency to become fixated. The kid I knew also had ASD/learning disabilities.

Step 1: become angry at something, like not being able to get laid

Step 2: fixate on this issue, as there is no way to solve it. Relationships aren't something you can just work out like an exam question, there is no complete easy guide to any social situation, so without a resolution people will end up constantly unable to find an answer to their problem

Step 3: emotional regulation is hard because autism, intensity builds and builds and is filed by constant reaffirmations the person sees day to day (being surrounded by other people who seem to be able to just get what they want in terms of relationships with others). Elliot Roger would claim his days to be ruined just by seeing couples out and about, because he couldn't understand why no one would give him the same treatment even though he wanted it so badly.

Step 4: radicalisation by a community of people all feeling the same way with no kind of regulation. The people they look up to are people who acted completely out of line. Alex 4chan Canadian was almost infatuated with Elliot and admired him so much for, in his eyes, standing up for the rights of incels. They don't look to people who change themselves to get laid- improving themselves doesn't work in their eyes because they've become completely convinced that all this Chad and Stacy shit is an integral part of society. It is a fact of life to these people, like the existence of gravity.

Step 5: Rise up, and Inspire the next generation of incels to repeat the process


The problem is, you can not medicate emotional regulation problems very well. It's to do with your brain's innate ability. It's not like bipolar where there is a chemical instability able to be controlled with lithium. It's similar in conditions like BPD- medications are largely ineffective. Only long term therapy to teach you how to challenge your brain's default reactions can he helpful in the long run. Unfortunately, unlike BPD, autism is not usually treated long term under psychology services.

I think a complete overhaul of how we help people with conditions like this would be needed if we were to really make a dent in helping prevent this shit. Having some kind of regular screening process through puberty or something to help identify people having issues with their relationships to catch this kind of thought process early on and prevent radicalisation.

 

[Mr Snek]

I honestly don't buy that. The clinical and, frankly, antiquated way you and other incels seem to examine people and couples is really part of why they can't form meaningful relationships with the opposite sex.

Nah I'm gonna disagree with that, a vast majority of relationships are still ones of convenience. Not that there's anything wrong with that, a relationship based on mutual gain, either economic or social, at least has an investment by both partners. Better than two dumbasses fucking for a few months and deciding that they'll be happy together forever, or getting knocked up and deciding that the best thing for the kid is to grow up with parents who can't stand each other.

 

[DetectiveDuBois]

examine people in a bubble

Oh my mistake. With your holier-than-thou attitude I should have known you went around judging each incel with perfect objectivity. *bows*

and make assumptions, you are shooting yourself in the foot

I’m not shooting anyone in the foot. Have you looked at who’s running America? Most countries laugh at the ineffectiveness of America’s military and you pseuds are still obsessed with fringe groups. Trends have value such as the lack of masculinity causing America to be it’s own enemy.

when it comes to forming genuine relationships with people. I'm not saying you should have good relations with everyone. I'm saying that once you stop acting like you've got people "figured out", you'll actually start understanding that you know fuck all about people, and that you should open yourself up to learning how people actually behave.

Yes people are individuals. I’m not the one who is so immune to irony that I take a group of meming incels jokes as reality.

As for your statement about emotionally stunted women: again, it's all relative. You can say the exact same thing about attractive women not wanting emotionally stunted men. It depends. If you're postulating that it's a universal truth that all attractive men don't want emotionally stunted women, then you're absolutely wrong, and I hopefully shouldn't have to explain how ridiculous it is that you actually believe that.

No I’m saying attraction is an emotional response in the brain. How much information can someone gather on a first date? If you think about the questions two people ask - what do you do for work? what hobbies do you have?

most assumptions are based on how attractive (masculine or feminine) they are because of dating being the one part of life where we don’t use our rational brain.

Furthermore, I want to clarify something about our interactions: I have been, or have tried to be, completely civil in this discussion. If you look in the incels.is thread and see some of the replies I posted over there, you'll see I'm perfectly capable of just taking the position of most other dudes on this site and telling you to go fuck yourself.

What an honourable thing to do. To condescend out of pity instead of hate.

I thought that we were cool, in plain words. I don't understand why you felt the need to have an outburst like that, but if you're seriously exhausted with this discussion, then just shut the fuck up and reply to someone else. You're in no position to be acting like a fucking sped when everyone else here has treated you with relative respect.

I can always tell how someone actually feels when the mask begins to erode.

 

[shortstack]

I think a complete overhaul of how we help people with conditions like this would be needed if we were to really make a dent in helping prevent this shit.

Wholeheartedly agree. That's really the whole point of the paper I'm doing. Parents especially need to be hyper-fucking-aware of how susceptible teenagers with certain mental disorders are to adopting these kinds of behaviors. I don't think a screening process would be that effective, though. It would just further ostracize these kids with issues more than they already are in schools. Kids with issues shouldn't grow up feeling like they're a ticking time bomb.

---

a vast majority of relationships are still ones of convenience.

I agree with that, but a convenient relationship can still be meaningful and fulfilling, which I was arguing was something incels have a difficult time comprehending.

---

I can always tell how someone actually feels when the mask begins to erode.

I actually felt like we were just having a simple, civil back-and-forth discussion about incels until you apparently forgot to take your meds today and chose to sperg out.
I'm happy to continue discussing with you another day when you've got your 'scripts filled.

 

[DetectiveDuBois]

I agree with that, but a convenient relationship can still be meaningful and fulfilling, which I was arguing was something incels have a difficult time comprehending.

Lmao another quality post by the relationship expert

I actually felt like we were just having a simple, civil back-and-forth discussion about incels until you apparently forgot to take your meds today and chose to sperg out.
I'm happy to continue discussing with you another day when you've got your 'scripts filled.

Feelings have no place outside your safe space.

 

[Dreamer]

Feelings have no place outside your safe space.

I noticed you seem to rapidly shift from "lucid" posts where you're reasonable, to posts where you make yourself the victim, and finally to posts that are meant as an attack
Why are you doing that? I have a pretty good idea but i want to hear your thoughts first

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

So here's another thing I've been thinking about. Incels™ see themselves as victims. Of women, of society, of autism, of whatever. Now that's probably true TO A POINT, but obviously they take it to an extreme and unhealthy degree. Does this sound vaguely similar like any other current cultural movements? Like... most of them?

Here's my point. In a society that glorifies and even rewards victimhood, it can be VERY hard to choose not to be a victim. I'd like to say that being a victim is pointless and unproductive and not something anybody should aspire to, but these days that's often not the case. Incels™ happen to be unsympathetic for pretty much everyone, but when they see victimhood being rewarded (say, race grifting), they think they might be able to do it too. The logic is wrong, but not necessarily crazy.