She-Ra and the Princess of Power - sjw bad animation reboot of shera

[NoReturn]

Got the pages on hand of Noelle talking about Molly cheating on her? I want them on hand, for reasons.

Reddit discusses the above:

Spoiler

Some more relevant bits from her tumblr.

 

[FreedomMussel]

Owl House does the whole “foes to lesbians” thing so much better.

 

[starborn427614]

Owl House does the whole “foes to lesbians” thing so much better.

Kind of a stretch to call Amity a foe per se, but she was vaguely antagonistic towards Luz for a bit so fair's fair.

 

[FreedomMussel]

Kind of a stretch to call Amity a foe per se, but she was vaguely antagonistic towards Luz for a bit so fair's fair.

By the standards of children, a middle school mean girl is a foe.

To be entirely honest, the whole “foes to fuckers” trope is inherently… I’d say “problematic” but that’s overused to the point of losing meaning. It’s inherently unhealthy and glorifies abusive relationships to an even worse degree than standard romantic abuse narratives. (That I can even specify “standard” is itself horrifying.)

“You can totally fix and fuck him even if he’s trying to genuinely kill you when you first meet” is an abhorrent message.

 

[Skipjack]

Owl House does the whole “foes to lesbians” thing so much better.

Owl House has Ostertag on the writing team, Dana Terrace is a bit of a nutcase, and her husband Alex Hirsch insulted their shared boss on Twitter (well-deserved, but still stupid of him to do it publicly). The fact that show isn't morally broken yet is an actual miracle.

The comments are an interesting mix of people simping hard for Catra and the rest (rightfully) pointing out that she didn't really grow all that much.

The thing is that Catra's motivation itself doesn't change. It's still all about gaining power and having Adora.

 

[Mooger Meng]

By the standards of children, a middle school mean girl is a foe.

To be entirely honest, the whole “foes to fuckers” trope is inherently… I’d say “problematic” but that’s overused to the point of losing meaning. It’s inherently unhealthy and glorifies abusive relationships to an even worse degree than standard romantic abuse narratives. (That I can even specify “standard” is itself horrifying.)

“You can totally fix and fuck him even if he’s trying to genuinely kill you when you first meet” is an abhorrent message.

These sorts of people don't understand negative emotions in general. I can't entirely hold it against them; you have to remember that from a young age, they've been taught that there's good in everyone, no one is past redemption, and all it takes is figuring out the right catalyst to turn someone's entire life/personality around to being Good. It's hilariously naïve and childish, but like any road to hell, it comes from a good place. The problem is when someone gets a front-row seat to the unintended consequences of this redemptionist mentality, via those who would gleefully exploit and abuse well-meaning retards without a moment's heasitation, and learn absolutely nothing from it. Pointing out that "how can people choose to be wicked when given no reason to be so?" is, in essence, the same thorny conundrum as "how can an omniscient and omnipotent deity allow suffering to exist?" (by way of being wholly contradictory to your system of belief) never helps, even if it enables the same behavior.

You can't write a warrior if you are wholly incapable of beginning to understand its mindset.

 

[toejamandearl92]

eh i liked the original

 

[FreedomMussel]

It's still all about gaining power and having Adora.

And she was willing to go “if I can’t have you, then I’ll destroy the world” too. Fucking millennials.

These sorts of people don't understand negative emotions in general. I can't entirely hold it against them; you have to remember that from a young age, they've been taught that there's good in everyone, no one is past redemption, and all it takes is figuring out the right catalyst to turn someone's entire life/personality around to being Good. It's hilariously naïve and childish, but like any road to hell, it comes from a good place. The problem is when someone gets a front-row seat to the unintended consequences of this redemptionist mentality, via those who would gleefully exploit and abuse well-meaning retards without a moment's heasitation, and learn absolutely nothing from it. Pointing out that "how can people choose to be wicked when given no reason to be so?" is, in essence, the same thorny conundrum as "how can an omniscient and omnipotent deity allow suffering to exist?" (by way of being wholly contradictory to your system of belief) never helps, even if it enables the same behavior.

You can't write a warrior if you are wholly incapable of beginning to understand its mindset.

Fucking millennials. I can totally hold it against them. I’ve actually been abused. I wanted to murder my abuser and I was completely justified in wanting to do so. I want those idiots who think anyone can be redeemed to experience my suffering. To be so tormented that they desire to murder their tormentor. Only then can they know the truth: sometimes, the only path to redemption is death.

The only way Catra is getting redeemed in my eyes is by having all of her negative traits literally beaten out of her in an extreme hurt/comfort fic. I want Hellraiser levels of torment for that filthy bitch who reminds me exactly of my abuser.

 

[Skipjack]

These sorts of people don't understand negative emotions in general. I can't entirely hold it against them; you have to remember that from a young age, they've been taught that there's good in everyone, no one is past redemption, and all it takes is figuring out the right catalyst to turn someone's entire life/personality around to being Good. It's hilariously naïve and childish, but like any road to hell, it comes from a good place. The problem is when someone gets a front-row seat to the unintended consequences of this redemptionist mentality, via those who would gleefully exploit and abuse well-meaning retards without a moment's heasitation, and learn absolutely nothing from it. Pointing out that "how can people choose to be wicked when given no reason to be so?" is, in essence, the same thorny conundrum as "how can an omniscient and omnipotent deity allow suffering to exist?" (by way of being wholly contradictory to your system of belief) never helps, even if it enables the same behavior.

You can't write a warrior if you are wholly incapable of beginning to understand its mindset.

This is why Amphibia will be the king of this era. It's the only one of these shows I've seen where a bad person straight up says they enjoy being bad, and then has to suffer the consequences of everyone losing their trust and compassion for her. They give her second chances and get fed up and say, "you know what? You're still making my life harder. I'm sick of you, clearly you're not worth it."

And she was willing to go “if I can’t have you, then I’ll destroy the world” too. Fucking millennials.



Fucking millennials. I can totally hold it against them. I’ve actually been abused. I wanted to murder my abuser and I was completely justified in wanting to do so. I want those idiots who think anyone can be redeemed to experience my suffering. To be so tormented that they desire to murder their tormentor. Only then can they know the truth: sometimes, the only path to redemption is death.

The only way Catra is getting redeemed in my eyes is by having all of her negative traits literally beaten out of her in an extreme hurt/comfort fic. I want Hellraiser levels of torment for that filthy bitch who reminds me exactly of my abuser.

She reminds you of your abuser because she IS an abuser. If you keep track, Catra's behavior lines up with all bullet-pointed examples of what an abuser will do to a victim. She's much more than a run-of-the-mill cartoon villain. She doesn't just defeat the good guys. She'll torment them, say its their fault, mock them, and toy with them. Catra is extremely jealous and possessive of Adora, even from her fucking pre-k years. When little Adora played with a friend without Catra, Catra physically attacked her... which is shown as a sign of just how much she loves Adora, and not a trait that's one of the biggest signifiers of abuse. Catra is also cruel and malicious towards Scorpia, who is basically a special needs adult with a heart of gold, telling her she's a failure who screws up everything. And she's still a good person deep down?! Imagine being a kid who's bullied at school and you watch this. You're basically being told to forgive the bullies making your life hell, because they're actually great people who deserve a second chance. I could go on.

 

[starborn427614]

Catra is a pretty special case in regards to 2010's antagonists given she's so much more personal and actively connected to the protagonist (who wants them to be better). The closest comparison I can think of is the Diamonds from SU, but they're so godlike (literally creating their race) that the gap of humanity creates this wall where Steven has to deal with them from a distance for his own safety. Even in the end, while they are genuinely attempting to become better "people" (which will probably take thousands of years to properly set in), he never visits them unless it's to help undo their own destructive work, actively harbours a grudge for all the pain they've caused and in the case of their actual actions they realised that their whole empire literally makes no sense and is just stagnant to the point of creating for the sake of creating (which destroys planets obviously).

Catra on the other hand was given plenty of chances to turn things around and chose violence every time. It's not that these characters are being given get out of jail free cards, it's that they're being given the CHOICE to change for the better. Catra eventually wound up taking that choice, but by that point the show had to actively ignore that she caused the death of Glimmer's mum for it to happen. I don't think it's even brought up by Glimmer of all people unless I'm mistaken.

 

[Kurtis Trent]

I remember reading somewhere that Loki's feelings for Sylvie (his female version, yeah it's fucking weird) don't have much to do with romance, but with his struggle for self-acceptance because Loki is an emotional mess...
I believe it's a similar case with catradora. SPOP's conflict isn't really about "good-vs-evil" or She-ra for that matter, it's all about Catra and Adora coming together. But in its core catradora and SPOP in general seems like Noelle's meditation on self-acceptance because she's an emotional mess and she just needs somebody to tell her it's going to be okay...
What I mean is SPOP is Noelle's Evangelion and Catradora is that scene where everyone stand in the circle clapping "Congratulations". And if it actually ended exactly like that, it wouldn't have made any difference because no one's feelings besides Catra's matter anyway.

edit: Owl House is a bit better but it has a similar problem because the more the show focuses on Amity's feelings for Luz, the less she becomes her own character. Remember how she was bullying her "best friend" throughout their childhoods "for her own good", yet she gets conveniently forgiven off-screen because she's Luz' "awesome girlfriend" now? She calls Willow and Gus her "friends" but we never see them doing anything together? Once again a lesbian character faces no consequences for treating people like crap because "that would be problematic, lgbtkkk is absolutely perfect and can do no wrong uwu #RainbowEntitlement ".

 

[Skipjack]

I remember reading somewhere that Loki's feelings for Sylvie (his female version, yeah it's fucking weird) don't have much to do with romance, but with his struggle for self-acceptance because Loki is an emotional mess...
I believe it's a similar case with catradora. SPOP's conflict isn't really about "good-vs-evil" or She-ra for that matter, it's all about Catra and Adora coming together. But in its core catradora and SPOP in general seems like Noelle's meditation on self-acceptance because she's an emotional mess and she just needs somebody to tell her it's going to be okay...
What I mean is SPOP is Noelle's Evangelion and Catradora is that scene where everyone stand in the circle clapping "Congratulations". And if it actually ended exactly like that, it wouldn't have made any difference because no one's feelings besides Catra's matter anyway.

edit: Owl House is a bit better but it has a similar problem because the more the show focuses on Amity's feelings for Luz, the less she becomes her own character. Remember how she was bullying her "best friend" throughout their childhoods "for her own good", yet she gets conveniently forgiven off-screen because she's Luz' "awesome girlfriend" now? She calls Willow and Gus her "friends" but we never see them doing anything together? Once again a lesbian character faces no consequences for treating people like crap because "that would be problematic, lgbtkkk is absolutely perfect and can do no wrong uwu #RainbowEntitlement ".

Knowing Noelle's situation, SPOP becomes something of a weird psychoanalytical study where you can see her justifying her own life. Even fans of the show have noticed the parallels between Molly telling Noelle to stay with her after making her feel like shit, and Catra telling Adora to not give up on her despite being horrendous.

The reason why Catradora fails miserably as a villains-to-lovers story is because like you said, it's not just good vs evil. Remember when people watched Kim Possible and shipped Kim with Shego? The reason why that was fine is because their conflict was purely professional (from what I remember anyway, it's been like 15 years since I watched that show). It'd be like two athletes on rival teams getting together. Catra and Adora's conflict isn't just "I'm the hero and you're the villain," it's "I have a long, personal, violent history with you."

As for Owl House, I think Lumity is also some manifestation of Dana's psychosis, just a lot less negative since she's actually in what appears to be a normal, healthy relationship (if not, she hasn't been stupid enough to tell the internet about it). Her twitter retweets ship art a lot. It's mostly about the 14-year-olds blushing to her, so that's what the show will focus on. She says Luz is the self-insert, but one look at Amity will make you think otherwise. Terrace is allegedly bisexual, but for some reason didn't come out, as in, tell anyone, until years after going to a very progressive college and after dating a man for years. I haven't watched the show though so I can't start doing my autistic brain picking yet.

 

[Uranus Pink]

Kim and Shego relationship was almost entirely professional. Iirc the only time it got any sort of personal was when Kim and Wade were looking into Shego's past and how Shego went from being part of a hero team to a quasi loner villian albeit one who would later hook up with Drakken(sp?)

 

[starborn427614]

Kim and Shego relationship was almost entirely professional. Iirc the only time it got any sort of personal was when Kim and Wade were looking into Shego's past and how Shego went from being part of a hero team to a quasi loner villian albeit one who would later hook up with Drakken(sp?)

I think a lot of people forget Kim's a minor too. Not that that matters to shippers, but still.

 

[FreedomMussel]

Once again a lesbian character faces no consequences for treating people like crap because "that would be problematic, lgbtkkk is absolutely perfect and can do no wrong uwu #RainbowEntitlement

And people wonder why LGBT acceptance rates are dropping for the first time in years.

 

[Hummingbird]

Seeing this review from the Tanners shows that Teela is becoming as likable as reboot-Catra.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

edit: Owl House is a bit better but it has a similar problem because the more the show focuses on Amity's feelings for Luz, the less she becomes her own character. Remember how she was bullying her "best friend" throughout their childhoods "for her own good", yet she gets conveniently forgiven off-screen because she's Luz' "awesome girlfriend" now? She calls Willow and Gus her "friends" but we never see them doing anything together? Once again a lesbian character faces no consequences for treating people like crap because "that would be problematic, lgbtkkk is absolutely perfect and can do no wrong uwu #RainbowEntitlement ".

I do think lesbians are next on the purity spiral and I think the hilarity on the internet may be better than when the gays were told "but you're still a man and therefore problematic" because they'll not be as prepared for it.

The amount of lesbians I've seen online in the wake of MeToo and its ilk discussing how men are predatory due to things like being older than the women they target, more successful, established within the social circle involved etc. while they themselves are also being guilty of the exact same shit is extensive and none of them seem to have realised that they're next on the list.

Amity's going to be problematic in a decade at most.

 

[Skipjack]

I do think lesbians are next on the purity spiral and I think the hilarity on the internet may be better than when the gays were told "but you're still a man and therefore problematic" because they'll not be as prepared for it.

The amount of lesbians I've seen online in the wake of MeToo and its ilk discussing how men are predatory due to things like being older than the women they target, more successful, established within the social circle involved etc. while they themselves are also being guilty of the exact same shit is extensive and none of them seem to have realised that they're next on the list.

Amity's going to be problematic in a decade at most.

They're already well on their way thanks to the trans movement. Suck the girldick or you're a TERF, bigot! You can't even look up tips for lesbian sex anymore without being reminded that not ALL women have vulvas!!! Lesbians can get pregnant from sex too!!! The thing is that no one has come for actual bad parts of the "wlw" community like Hayley Kiyoko, shippers, and their ilk. Between death threats over RWBY characters, treating women like trophies to wrench away from men, and cheering on the idea of "converting" straight women (read: sexual assault), I can only imagine the kind of turbo-drama that happens within these circles. I've even created a warning system. It's like DEFCON, but we call it BICON, because let's be real here. BICON 5 is harmless, BICON 1 is an imminent danger (I've recently added a special BICON 0 category for ILJ: the BIohazard). For more examples, Noelle's wife is a somewhere between a 3 (spiteful) and 2 (abusive) while Dana Terrace is a 4 (intrusive).

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

They're already well on their way thanks to the trans movement. Suck the girldick or you're a TERF, bigot! You can't even look up tips for lesbian sex anymore without being reminded that not ALL women have vulvas!!! Lesbians can get pregnant from sex too!!! The thing is that no one has come for actual bad parts of the "wlw" community like Hayley Kiyoko, shippers, and their ilk. Between death threats over RWBY characters, treating women like trophies to wrench away from men, and cheering on the idea of "converting" straight women (read: sexual assault), I can only imagine the kind of turbo-drama that happens within these circles. I've even created a warning system. It's like DEFCON, but we call it BICON, because let's be real here. BICON 5 is harmless, BICON 1 is an imminent danger (I've recently added a special BICON 0 category for ILJ: the BIohazard). For more examples, Noelle's wife is a somewhere between a 3 (spiteful) and 2 (abusive) while Dana Terrace is a 4 (intrusive).

Yeah the trans movement has a massive amount of immediate catch 22s for lesbians (accept these things or you're a bigot and therefore a fair target). Those I think at this point they have accepted and those willing to go trans are in that camp and the rest are negotiating with the TERFs.

What's going to be the hit is when they get treated to the same shit people have been targeting cis men for which is on the horizon and which they will largely have no grounding in defending themselves against. A predatory woman is a definition largely used for those targeting literal children. When it gets used as widely as the predatory men label does the majority of women will have no idea how to begin to react.

Like the BICON gauge and unfortunately know a number of 4s and 3s in real life alas. Though given the lack of 2s I should consider myself lucky.

 

[Juan's Sombrero]

They're already well on their way thanks to the trans movement. Suck the girldick or you're a TERF, bigot! You can't even look up tips for lesbian sex anymore without being reminded that not ALL women have vulvas!!! Lesbians can get pregnant from sex too!!! The thing is that no one has come for actual bad parts of the "wlw" community like Hayley Kiyoko, shippers, and their ilk. Between death threats over RWBY characters, treating women like trophies to wrench away from men, and cheering on the idea of "converting" straight women (read: sexual assault), I can only imagine the kind of turbo-drama that happens within these circles. I've even created a warning system. It's like DEFCON, but we call it BICON, because let's be real here. BICON 5 is harmless, BICON 1 is an imminent danger (I've recently added a special BICON 0 category for ILJ: the BIohazard). For more examples, Noelle's wife is a somewhere between a 3 (spiteful) and 2 (abusive) while Dana Terrace is a 4 (intrusive).

Yeah the trans movement has a massive amount of immediate catch 22s for lesbians (accept these things or you're a bigot and therefore a fair target). Those I think at this point they have accepted and those willing to go trans are in that camp and the rest are negotiating with the TERFs.

What's going to be the hit is when they get treated to the same shit people have been targeting cis men for which is on the horizon and which they will largely have no grounding in defending themselves against. A predatory woman is a definition largely used for those targeting literal children. When it gets used as widely as the predatory men label does the majority of women will have no idea how to begin to react.

Like the BICON gauge and unfortunately know a number of 4s and 3s in real life alas. Though given the lack of 2s I should consider myself lucky.

Feminists are no longer that useful as a marketing scheme, but how likely is any of that going to happen? Will lesbians get the shirt end, too?