Taliban offensive of 2021 and collapse of Afghan government.

What an asinine comparison. We stuck it out vs. Japan because, unlike the Taliban, they were in the process of conquering the entirety of Asia, threatening multiple allied states like Australia and China, and because they declared war on us, not the other way around. Pearl Harbor was just a useful rallying cry for a whole lot of other reasons to stick through the war and see it to completion.
Afghanistan, meanwhile, has been nothing but a fruitless nation building exercise to line the pockets of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin for the past 10 years at least. The Taliban weren't even the ones ultimately hiding Bin Laden, we found him in fucking Pakistan. To say nothing that absolutely zero of the 9/11 attackers were Afghani, they were mostly Saudis with a smattering of members from the gulf states or the Levant. We went in with a murky casus beli at best, and public opinion wasn't behind the war after maybe the first 18 months.

Ending this farcical charade and leaving the fuckers to go back to their preferred hobby of sodomizing sheep and little boys isn't some sad indictment of the American public's spirit, it's a sad indictment of our corrupt, self-serving, and directionless leadership.
Yeah Pakistan is not our sunshine and rainbows friend either, but they have nukes so we have to at least respect them a bit. Which is why Obama didn't fucking tell them when he gave the order to go in to get OBL even though clearly someone in ISI was protecting him. (Something that Biden was against, btw. Obama was more based than Biden, go figure).

Yeah the 9/11 perps were mostly Saudi. The crazies recruit from everywhere and there are a lot in SA. There were Americans fighting for ISIS, not to mention the crazy ass teenage girls who'd go there to go get knocked up by their hajji masters. That's not the point.

What the Taliban are is an organization that creates a safe space hugbox for the medieval childfuckers that want to rule the world. It's one thing where they have to live in a country where they have to operate in the shadows, it's another where they can just operate in the open because they have the protection of a nation state. They make the Iranians look like progressive pronoun-respecting twitter zoomers. OBL had to HIDE in Pakistan even though he surely had some help from some portions of government, because it still had to be secret. He was busy worrying about his own shit. The embassy bombings and 9/11 happened because he had safe spaces like Sudan and Afghanistan where he could just walk to the bank when he needed money to fund his network.

An enemy on the run and hiding is a far less dangerous enemy. When we kicked the Taliban out we put them and everyone they protected on the run and hiding as well. The Iraq war was a stupid mistake because even though Saddam was an evil shit at least he wasn't a hajji, but once we pulled out we learned that the vacuum made space for the people who can't be reasoned with. We apparently didn't learn that lesson well enough because pulling out of Afghanistan is causing the exact same thing to happen. These are people on a literal mission from God. You can't negotiate with them. They will not compromise. Once they create their safe space they will use it the same way they did before. They will not sit quietly in their own borders when there's a whole world to convert.

If there were a Handmaid's Tale Christian theocracy at the extreme level of the Taliban conquering Afghanistan right now, the twitter mob would have us sending 100,000 troops there tomorrow.
 
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Yeah Pakistan is not our sunshine and rainbows friend either, but they have nukes so we have to at least respect them a bit. Which is why Obama didn't fucking tell them when he gave the order to go in to get OBL even though clearly someone in ISI was protecting him. (Something that Biden was against, btw. Obama was more based than Biden, go figure).
Osama Bin Laden was literally the most well known fugitive of the era, there is absolutely no way Pakistan gets away with shielding him publicly without universal sanctions by the entire world, though the moment the word Abbottabad was spoken every single person on the planet with a clue knew that Pakistan's government was in on securing him, once the raid was in progress and Pakistan guessed what was going on they immediately just played it off as Bin Laden acting solo.
 
Worse case scenario: some of them are undercover Taliban planning another 9/11, this time north of the border
Yes it sounds like the 20K is in addition to the known people like interpreters and government contractors.
With all the chaos on the ground there now there is no way to vet anyone.
>>Do you suck dick?
>YEP!
>>Welcome to Canada!

But intelligence experts said 90 days?
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Those embassy glowers better start burning those papers and flags faster.
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Osama Bin Laden was literally the most well known fugitive of the era, there is absolutely no way Pakistan gets away with shielding him publicly without universal sanctions by the entire world, though the moment the word Abbottabad was spoken every single person on the planet with a clue knew that Pakistan's government was in on securing him, once the raid was in progress and Pakistan guessed what was going on they immediately just played it off as Bin Laden acting solo.
Right. That's the difference. Some people in the Pakistani government shielded OBL but they had to keep it on the DL, which limited his ability to function. When he was in Afghanistan the Taliban were "Yeah he's here but he can do what he wants because he's our guest. What are you going to do about it?"

Do we really want to stand back and let the Taliban come back because "It's not our problem, it's up to the Afghanis to settle it." The last time they were in power, the Taliban MADE it our problem.

Yes it sounds like the 20K is in addition to the known people like interpreters and government contractors.
With all the chaos on the ground there now there is no way to vet anyone.
>>Do you suck dick?
>YEP!
>>Welcome to Canada!
Unfortunately the only moral thing to do is to let the gays in as fast as we can. They need to be watched to see if they are true-and-honest gays, but what else are you going to do? Religious nutjobs want them dead. It would be cruel to have them thrown off buildings just because we promised them safety before we pussied out.

One of the nice improvements the west has made is respecting that where you stick your dick is your own business as long as you're not hurting anyone else.
 
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To be fair, looking at recent history, the US did an okay job in Panama and Grenada. I think the main problem with Afghanistan and Iraq is we were focused on keeping artificial nations together when they would have been better served going the way of Yugoslavia.
 
Do we really want to stand back and let the Taliban come back because "It's not our problem, it's up to the Afghanis to settle it." The last time they were in power, the Taliban MADE it our problem.
The Taliban and OBL's creation can all be traced right back to the CIA and the US government. They came up with the bright idea to fund and train a bunch of crazy radicals so they could go fuck with the USSR when they where stuck in Afghanistan. Now we are handing all of Afganistan over to our sons the Teliban and giving them 20 years worth of arms, armor, humvee's, and maybe even some aircraft with trained ANA pilots who will turncoat. We are doing a great service to the world, again. USA#1!
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I am all for leaving that shithole once it was clear there was no winning but to do it like this is totally insane. Not 1 usable rifle should have been left. They had years to destroy and or remove everything. The aircraft will be useless with out maintenance and support but the millions of small arms and other gear will be showing up in conflicts for years to come. The same super smart intel advisers who started this nightmare decades ago are the same ones telling Obama/Trump/Biden that the Afghan national army would actually stick around and fight if they had enough arms and training.
 
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Definitely the US, but the goal for both the Soviets and US was to prop up some quisling state that immediately fell apart the moment each state departed. The Afghani could never have taken on either state if the goal was Medieval or Ancient tier conquest featuring large scale genocide and enslaving of the people. The "Graveyard of Empires" shit is so trite because its just outright wrong. The Mongols steam rolled the region, the Islamic Calpihate steamrolled them and destroyed all of their local religions, the Persians owned them and Alexander literally founded Kabul, Herat, and Kandahar. The only reason the Afghani managed to dunk on the British, Soviets and Americans is because all three refused to just genocide 50% of the population for ideological reasons like the past invaders.
Sort of. Ancient conquerors did massacre a lot of people, but many were enslaved or surrendered rather than killed outright, so losers of wars didn't take anywhere close to 50% dead most of the time. Genocides happened sometimes; the Mongols exterminated the Khwarezmians in revenge for killing their envoys. But ancient scholars liked to exaggerate the sizes of armies and how many men they killed, so taking that into account it's worth noting that many ancient wars didn't actually have the colossal death tolls some period sources suggest in reality (though deaths from famine and disease certainly left a hefty impact, and Alexander the Great had no qualms about killing rebels).

When considering that, and that millions of Afghans have died in constant low-intensity war since the 1970s, the degree of bloodshed is not necessarily always the major difference here. The Islamic Caliphate for example did not generally obliterate rival religions, for example, but rather discriminated against them with jizya taxes and pressured them to convert. Zoroastrianism still exists even now, it was just marginalised into irrelevance. It wasn't like the Mongols.

The major differences instead are in foreign support for the rebels and the type of government the occupiers are trying to impose. Pakistan, at times helped by the USA, China, and others, has supported Afghan rebels for decades as part of a plan to extend its influence into that country, preventing a possible alliance with India which would encircle it. This is where the focus on casualties and military tactics is a bit misleading. The USA is obviously heavily restricted in permitted weapons/tactics, but the USSR was not, even to the point of poison gas attacks according to some reporting. However, escalations in military force were met with escalations in support for the rebels by Pakistan and others (the provision of Stingers in the 1980s and the "airlift of evil" and sheltering Bin Laden and Mullah Omar in the 2000s, for example).

Before 1998, Pakistan was officially aligned with the USA and protected by them. Since 1998, Pakistan has fielded a sizable stock of nuclear weapons, meaning any attempt to do something violent about this becomes politically impossible for obvious reasons (see also: North Korea, and Israel if you're on the opposite side of the geopolitical fence). If Iraq had actually had nuclear weapons in 2003, nothing much would have happened to them. Again, ideological issues don't really matter in this case; India would love to destroy Pakistan if they could, but it's no more an option than deleting the USSR was in 1985.

A very comparable situation exists in Northern Syria. Syria, Iran, and Russia obviously have no ideological problems with chemical attacks, indiscriminate bombing of civilians, mass execution/torture of POWs, and so on, but with NATO member Turkey giving massive support to rebels to the point of outright invading parts of the country to protect them all this is pretty useless and the war is an endless stalemate. Syria's state is obviously not just going to abandon their own country and run away, so the similarity ends there, but this is why "no military solution" absolutely applies here.

This is easily possible because of the second issue, the type of rule involved. In the past, empires were quite decentralised. A tribesman would have a chief who swore fealty to the king, and that was about it. Many of them were so remote they didn't even really pay regular taxes of any sort. Having one king as opposed to another was therefore often not as big a deal as it might seem.

This massively changes with modern states. Suddenly, who is in charge massively affects the rural tribesman, and the fact that this bunch of Pashto herders is on this side of the arbitrary Durand Line and not the other is massively important. Said tribesmen will probably prefer the Taliban and Pakistan to a central government run by Tajiks and Uzbeks and Americans. The state has no legitimacy outside cities and soon falls apart.

Regarding Britain, Britain never actually wanted to directly rule Afghanistan anyway, so it's moot. The plan was to have it as a vassal buffer state to block Russia from getting into India, and that worked. It's not really relevant to any of this aside from that British armies were sometimes defeated there, and sometimes successful.

As for China, Pakistan is their closest ally aside from maybe North Korea. They are far more likely to negotiate with the Taliban than fight them as a result of this. Remember the entire situation is a product of Pakistani foreign policy to start with.
 
I am all for leaving that shithole once it was clear there was no winning but to do it like this is totally insane. Not 1 usable rifle should have been left. They had years to destroy and or remove everything. The aircraft will be useless with out maintenance and support but the millions of small arms and other gear will be showing up in conflicts for years to come.
You make it sound as though the US ever intended otherwise.
 
So when does the second 9/11 come and why is it Biden's fault
No clue. I’m still of the thinking that China will make a move first once they have all the moves to do so and there’s no viable way to counter because it’s too late and the CCP have already won.

I feel like The Taliban is only interested in what’s going on in their own backyard and will only come out to play if interests with others overlap. As for another 9/11….well, the Democrats are trying their damndest to make 1/6….that, but also unless ISIS makes a comeback, I’m not sure if anyone hates the West enough to plan to pull off something like that.
 
No clue. I’m still of the thinking that China will make a move first once they have all the moves to do so and there’s no viable way to counter because it’s too late and the CCP have already won.
China doesn't use its military, it captures the elites of a country and then turns it into a raw resource pump. China will buy out the Taliban and mine the trillions in lithium and other resources in Afghanistan, building only the minimal amount of infrastructure required to do so. They're going to repeat what they did in Africa, also the biggest move they're going to pull off is invalidate the entire US Naval doctrine of owning the seas by creating a pipeline to run across Afghanistan from Iran the western Chinese regions. American geo-strategic aims in the entire region has completely and utterly collapsed during the Biden administration. First Burma ejected their globohomo puppet leader and the military took control and allowed Chinese military vessels to dock and get serviced in its ports. This immediately expands the theatre of operations the US needs to work in an effort to contain Chinese naval activity as now its forced to patrol both the Indian ocean and the South China Sea. With the pipeline from Iran to China across Afghanistan it has cut the domination the US has over Iran with the blockade the Persian Gulf at Hormuz. Its unreal how catastrophic the past year has been for the US goals, everything is unraveling at break neck speed.
 
Since the Taliban are a mere 15min drive out from Kabul now I would expect them to dip their toes in tomorrow and see what the response is, if they get repulsed likely we'll see an effort to encircle the city begin as more troops filter in. That blitz 350km up the main highway was fucking insane and I think everyone has been caught flat footed. Very real chance of Kabul falling tomorrow or Sunday if the population just surrenders. Yesterday I didn't expect them to have taken over Kabul by Sept 11th but now? It more likely than not.

Also Biden seems to be hiding in Camp David and refusing any chance for journalist to question what a catastrophic fuck up this pullout was.
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Since the Taliban are a mere 15min drive out from Kabul now I would expect them to dip their toes in tomorrow and see what the response is, if they get repulsed likely we'll see an effort to encircle the city begin as more troops filter in. That blitz 350km up the main highway was fucking insane and I think everyone has been caught flat footed. Very real chance of Kabul falling tomorrow or Sunday if the population just surrenders. Yesterday I didn't expect them to have taken over Kabul by Sept 11th but now? It more likely than not.

Also Biden seems to be hiding in Camp David and refusing any chance for journalist to question what a catastrophic fuck up this pullout was. View attachment 2443503
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The taliban are about to use leftover US equipment to kill Marines.

Thanks Biden.
 
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