Taliban offensive of 2021 and collapse of Afghan government.

war ever being 'clean' was a historical anomaly limited in time and scope to feudal europe (and to some extent its colonies) where wars were fought mainly to resolve territorial disputes between noble houses, with the population otherwise completely disinterested and unaffected by its consequences.

apart from that time and place, what people today call 'total war' has been the norm throughout most of the world for pretty much all of history.
If I were a general I'd handle it the same way, but I like the concept of honor. "what an elegant sidearm, you may retain it" and then hand then back their pistol. It allows the opponent to keep their dignity and makes the victor appear to be a good sport. For the foot soldiers war is life or death, but for the commanders it's a game after all.
 
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>be aspiring FBI agent
>dream about catching the Al Capone of the 21st century
>be assigned to the monitoring a shitposting and lolcow forum 24/7
feels bad man
I hear they have to keep rotating them out, because sites like /pol/ and the farms keep redpilling them if they're allowed to read them uninterrupted for too long.

I like how Blinken coped and said "we already succeeded in getting revenge for 9/11 so whatever". Then why the fuck were we still there for a DECADE after we killed Osama Bin Laden you stupid dickhead?
I heard a theory that they were trying to turn Kabul into a bugman hive, a "modern urban city" that they could use to prove that they could manipulate even the most privative of rural regions into embracing globalism.
 
war ever being 'clean' was a historical anomaly limited in time and scope to feudal europe (and to some extent its colonies) where wars were fought mainly to resolve territorial disputes between noble houses, with the population otherwise completely disinterested and unaffected by its consequences.
Are you familiar with the "cabinet wars" of the 18th century? After the devastation of the religious conflicts of the 17th century, warfare in Europe became a lot more gentlemanly and restrained(between states anyway). Limited wars fought for limited dynastic ambitions, the wars of the Austrian and Spanish successions, seven years' war and so on.

That isn't to say civilian populations were unaffected but "total war" wasn't a thing-it was French king wanting claim to northern Italian duchy A and being opposed by the Austrian Emperor who didn't want the French to weaken his Spanish cousins too much backed by the British who didn't want a european superpower emerging(that's of course a great oversimplification but still).

You had relatively small professional armies, that were kept apart from the civilian population, campaigning season was limited, as were the objectives-"take city B and hold, the enemy will negotiate and we'll give them worthless province C". In such a context, atrocities were limited and the civilian population like as not didn't understand much less care about said conflicts.

Total war in terms of mass mobilization as we understand it now is a result of the French revolution(not the same thing as ancient wars-which could be between peoples-the Roman wars against Gaul and Carthage for example, or wars between say the Seleucids and Ptolemies, should be noted the former were often wars of extermination, whereas the latter had the disinterested civilian populations you refer to).

I guess we might have to clarify what we mean by "total" war, do we mean no holds barred atrocities galore like the thirty years war or the different concept of the levee en masse and the total mobilization of the state and population?
 
If I were a general I'd handle it the same way, but I like the concept of honor. "what an elegant sidearm, you may retain it" and then hand then back their pistol. It allows the opponent to keep their dignity and makes the victor appear to be a good sport. For the foot soldiers war is life or death, but for the commanders it's a game after all.
If I recall, in 18th century warfare, shooting enemy officers wasn't allowed. They were captured and ransomed or traded in return for concessions but generally treated respectfully. A war between gentlemen was more restrained because there was a mutual recognition of shared class and interest(i.e. we don't fight to the death because that will destabilize the whole social order).
 
If I recall, in 18th century warfare, shooting enemy officers wasn't allowed. They were captured and ransomed or traded in return for concessions but generally treated respectfully. A war between gentlemen was more restrained because there was a mutual recognition of shared class and interest(i.e. we don't fight to the death because that will destabilize the whole social order).
You are remembering correctly
 
war ever being 'clean' was a historical anomaly limited in time and scope to feudal europe
ironically the cleanest war has ever been is probably post ww2. i imagine any time before that was horrific.
If I recall, in 18th century warfare, shooting enemy officers wasn't allowed
ironically george washington changed it to target them exclusively.
 
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Given ancient Assyrian ways of conducting war, you'd have Assyrian kings bragging on their streams about how many skulls they piled up while dabbing on the captured idols of ruined cities to strangely hypnotic hymns to Ashur. Modern norms of war were developed over centuries, and in ancient times restraints were based on material considerations(as someone said earlier) before moral ones. Give the Assyrians nukes, or the Sea peoples AK-47s and they'd do as they did with swords and spears.


Thing is, this creates bad incentives in terms of conflict resolution. If your enemy can expect no mercy, they will show you none. This makes war a lot less "clean" than it otherwise can be. In your scenario, all sides and factions(because it wouldn't just be two factions) would have every incentive to fight to the bitter end, because they could not expect leniency, for them or their family, friends, communities, etc...

There are issues with the Bronze Age & Earlier accounts of battles.
There is a battle in early bronze-age Mesopotamia (the exact one escapes me and I'm too lazy to dig it up) Where both of the kings claimed victory, both claimed to have set the other to flight and butchered tens of thousands of enemy soldiers with minimal loses. The likely loser - the King who put his enemy to flight but was told by his Gods to not go to the enemy city because the land was unclean - continued to rule for several years after, as did his opponent.

I guess what I'm saying is for the bronze age, no evidence of kings collecting skulls for their skull thrones exists, at least at the scale they claim. Battles were likely of much smaller scale than claimed, though no less brutal. Metal was scarce and hard to come by until the late bronze age, and the most common weapon on the battle field would likely have been a war mace.
Which is not the spiked affair we see in europe, but basically a weight (a lump of some sort of slag metal if you were lucky, but possibly just a rock) or even just a straight up club - not the caveman affairs, think like a nightstick or axe handle.
It takes a lot of work and a long time to beat someone to death with a mace, and longer when you'd just got a wood stick.

war ever being 'clean' was a historical anomaly limited in time and scope to feudal europe (and to some extent its colonies) where wars were fought mainly to resolve territorial disputes between noble houses, with the population otherwise completely disinterested and unaffected by its consequences.

apart from that time and place, what people today call 'total war' has been the norm throughout most of the world for pretty much all of history.

It really depends. War in China was all about control of the peasants; over 4000 years it happened, but it was the exception and not the norm. When there was whole-sale slaughter it was usually against a noble family and not their people. We don't know too much about early war in India because reading and writing were hoarded by the priestly class and they didn't carve a lot of stone, but the pre-Aryan civilizations cities do not show signs of violence, just sudden abandonment. In mesoamerica, even the Aztecs preferred to keep tribes under their heel as opposed to outright extermination; somewhat ironically the Inca were more brutal to their enemies, forcing anyone they didn't kill to adopt Inca ways. But this is because the region was resource scarce, as I'll go over down below.

In the middle east, total war was more common because it was war for scarce resources. Life was cheap - even slaves had to prove their worth to avoid the sword. Things were more civilized in Egypt thanks to the Nile delta, but out in the desert, you generally fighting over arable land. If you lost, the good outcome was being taken captive and made a slave by the victors - the bad outcome is being exiled in the desert where if you are lucky lions or wolves get you before thirst really sets in.
So a lot of total war in the middle east was due to straight up ethnic cleansing to expand your people's land, and the defenders having nothing to lose by fighting to the very last.
 
There are issues with the Bronze Age & Earlier accounts of battles.
Hate to engage in autistic pedantry, but the Assyrians were an iron age empire. We have good evidence of the brutality they engaged in-even if their kings were edge lords "I burned all the women and children alive, the city trembled as I skinned its sons"-sort of stuff, it did happen even if exaggerated.

The battle of kadesh does fit your example though-both sides claimed victory(modern historians IIRC think the Hittites got the better result in the end though-regardless of the battle's outcome).
 
War in China was all about control of the peasants; over 4000 years it happened, but it was the exception and not the norm. When there was whole-sale slaughter it was usually against a noble family and not their people.
so what you're saying is that wars between kingdoms usually tried to keep people out of it because for the most part they were peasents who didnt really care who was in power as long as they can continue doing what they were doing, farming and shit.
wars between tribes and shit was probably way more brutal because of their goals. then religious wars and shit like that.
 
so what you're saying is that wars between kingdoms usually tried to keep people out of it because for the most part they were peasents who didnt really care who was in power as long as they can continue doing what they were doing, farming and shit.
wars between tribes and shit was probably way more brutal because of their goals. then religious wars and shit like that.
If its between monarchs or princes, its usually over control of certain claimed territories and then resources therein(or claim to titles), not about destroying an entire people(your future tax base).

Wars between tribes or nation states are more existential in nature, because everyone has a vested interest in victory, not "oh well, I lost guess I'll send my least favorite daughter to wed his son and a few of my annoying nephews as hostages, still got my throne though".

The difference changes the entire calculus and psychology in how wars are conducted.
 
If I recall, in 18th century warfare, shooting enemy officers wasn't allowed. They were captured and ransomed or traded in return for concessions but generally treated respectfully. A war between gentlemen was more restrained because there was a mutual recognition of shared class and interest(i.e. we don't fight to the death because that will destabilize the whole social order).
You are remembering correctly

You forget the best part. It wasn't just officers. Soldiers were captured as well, and the usual fate of a captured soldier was to surrender your weapon, then be sent back home once you had signed a sworn an oath not to return to the army until you were officially prisoner-swapped. Most of the conscripted men were farmers, and if killed couldn't tend fields. All sides in a war needed to eat, and so all sides came to an understanding.

This was one of the issues the British took with American Revolutionaries; once released those honorless bastards would just go get fresh weapons and be right back on the battle field! The utter cheek!

so what you're saying is that wars between kingdoms usually tried to keep people out of it because for the most part they were peasents who didnt really care who was in power as long as they can continue doing what they were doing, farming and shit.
wars between tribes and shit was probably way more brutal because of their goals. then religious wars and shit like that.

Early Tribal wars were brutal by their nature. You only go to war in tribal society when things are so bad, you have to kill each and every last mother fucker out there. You also quickly adapt to killing anyone you have to kill in the most gruesome and fucked up ways you can dream up - because if you kill one of the neighboring tribe in a way that'd make fans of Hostel sick to their stomachs, it should put some fear into the rest of their tribe so you don't have to kill the rest of them.

All bets are off on a Holy War. I'll only to say that when they start, most Religious Wars to the planners and runners are less about Religion and more about Ethnicity.

Hate to engage in autistic pedantry, but the Assyrians were an iron age empire. We have good evidence of the brutality they engaged in-even if their kings were edge lords "I burned all the women and children alive, the city trembled as I skinned its sons"-sort of stuff, it did happen even if exaggerated.

The battle of kadesh does fit your example though-both sides claimed victory(modern historians IIRC think the Hittites got the better result in the end though-regardless of the battle's outcome).

I call bullshit on your first statement. You love it, just admit it.
Second, fair. But again, that's middle east warfare. It wasn't about conquering people, it was about securing scarce resources.
 
Does anyone remember that old 'French Military History' meme that was a list of all of France's defeats? Have we got enough for an American version now or do we need to wait for a couple more wars?
i think the problem is fighting guerilla forces and non traditional armies with geneva convention rules. russia was fucking up afghanis in ways we couldn't conceive.
maybe china and russia will just do that again and actually knock some sense into them. cause thats the only thing they understand. punishment so brutal it has to be divine smiting
 
Does anyone remember that old 'French Military History' meme that was a list of all of France's defeats? Have we got enough for an American version now or do we need to wait for a couple more wars?
I think you need to wait a couple more decades. but only a couple - these past few weeks have p much signaled to the world that USA really is in a decline and it's not just a meme to try and cope with the 'MURICA zeal of the past 20 years.
 
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