General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

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Some sperging but mostly good points.

Every demographic is gonna have its fringe, on both extremes. (Ever seen a MAGA trans? YIKES. And I'm not talking about Jenner.)

The Merge sent the twittertroon sect into overdrive and it's frankly just embarrassing for those who are just carrying on with our lives like functional adults. Honestly tumblr fucked this up by forcing them out of containment to the internet at large. At least when they were there I didn't have it spilling into every thread and news feed I see.

Get therapy, find the med combo that works, delete Twitter, touch grass and just be an adult. Advocate for your own self-improvement and stop demanding everyone put up with you and your issues because they're nazi bigots if they don't.
 
Actor Simon Callow featured in the Times UK for being a horrible trans-hating bigot:

Archive

Simon Callow, the actor and veteran gay rights campaigner, has condemned the “strange turn to the tyrannical” taken by Stonewall on self-identification for transgender people.

Callow, who was involved in the anti-government protests that led to the foundation of Stonewall in 1989, said an “extraordinarily unproductive militancy” now surrounded its position. This uncompromising mood risked infringing women’s rights and could put pressure on young gay people to transition, he said, and it was a sign of the times that he felt nervous about the reaction he would stir up, simply for expressing his views.

I shouldn’t have to fear in that way,” he said. “This is just tyranny and that’s what we’ve fought against all our lives, people saying, ‘this cannot be discussed’. Yes, it can be discussed. Everything can be discussed. I’ve always been perfectly prepared to discuss homosexuality with anyone on reasonable terms. I can form a conclusion about a person’s attitudes but I don’t for one second think they shouldn’t have them.”

Callow, 72, who is best known for his role as Gareth in the 1994 film Four Weddings and a Funeral, is in Edinburgh with a show about being an actor. His stage and screen career began in the city in 1973 and he has frequently returned with international festival and fringe productions.

In 1988, he was one of the most outspoken critics of Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s Local Government Act, which threatened regional theatres with prosecution if they staged plays that “promoted homosexuality”.

The next year Stonewall formed around a group including Simon Fanshawe, who quit the charity after 30 years, attacking its “intransigence” over self identification. This position, Fanshawe said, would mean that anyone “who self-IDs as the opposite sex could no longer be prevented from entering a woman-only space such as a refuge, changing room or dormitory”.

Callow agreed with Fanshawe. He went on: “They have taken a very strange turn towards the tyrannical, a dangerously prescriptive position on a complex issue. When it impinges on women’s rights, hard-won women’s rights, the right to exclusive spaces for women, away from any threat at all — I think that’s a very serious issue.

“The whole issue of when children can be deemed to know whether it’s time for them to transition, if they’re going to transition [is complex]. Obviously we know there are a number of cases of people who have regretted it deeply.

The most dangerous thing is that it may well be that they are just gay and they’re being somehow lured into thinking that they are obviously in the wrong gender, which is not the case. It has created oppositions which should not be there at all.”

Stonewall has been accused of using a workplace equality scheme to “coerce” publicly funded organisations and companies to lobby for changes to the law. In June, The Times showed how the charity used its Top 100 Employers list to reward public sector organisations if they brought their policies in line with Stonewall’s agenda, including its contentious view on gender identity, but it dropped those that did not.
Stonewall said: ”We are working towards a world in which all lesbian, gay, bi, trans and queer people are able to thrive as themselves. We’re very proud of our work towards trans equality, as well as our work for all lesbian, gay, bi and queer people. From LGBTQ+ inclusive education to equity in healthcare, our work helps all LGBTQ+ people.”
•Simon Callow: Being An Actor – 50 Years On,
 
I just felt this had to go somewhere on the farms.

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Should Public Schools be Allowed to Deceive Parents?

Never encourage a child to keep a secret from her parents. That’s what we used to say, in decades past, when we believed a sacred boundary encircled every American home.

Last week, I spoke with another mother who discovered her 12-year-old daughter’s middle school had changed the girl’s name and gender identity at school. The “Gender Support Plan” the district followed is an increasingly standard document which informs teachers of a child’s new chosen name and gender identity (“trans,” “agender,” “non-binary,” etc.) for all internal communications with the child. The school also provided the girl a year’s worth of counseling in support of her new identity, which in her case was “no gender.” Even the P.E. teachers were in on it. Left in the dark were her parents.

This duplicity is part of the “plan”: All documents sent home to mom and dad scrupulously maintained the daughter’s birth name and sex. But Mom noticed her daughter seemed to be suffering. Although far from alone in declaring a new identity - many girls in the school had adopted new names and gender pronouns – this girl’s grades fell apart. She became taciturn and moody.

When the mother failed to uncover the source of the girl’s distress, she met with teachers, hoping for insight. Instead, she slammed into a Wall of Silence: no teacher was evidently willing to let a worried mom know what the hell was going on. (Finally, one did.)

When I wrote Irreversible Damage, I documented that California and other public school systems had adopted a policy of creating two sets of documents around minor students’ gender. Similar policies have cropped up across the country, modeled on the one created by the activist organization Gender Spectrum.

A “gender support plan” isn’t merely a secret held between child and teacher, which might be bad enough. This is no private student confession, the silent whisperings of a troubled teenage heart. A Gender Support Plan, or any similar scheme, effects a schoolwide conspiracy to create a secret name and gender identity specifically withheld from parents. I’ve talked to a mom whose middle school daughter slept in the boys’ bunk on the school overnight before she learned her daughter’s school had, for more than a year, called her by a different name and openly referred to her as a boy.

Teachers and activists who support this policy typically make two arguments in its favor. The first is that the very fact that a teen would want to keep her new gender identity a secret from parents is proof that home is an “unsafe” place for her; that is, her parents, if they knew, would abuse her. The second is that this gender declaration is a deeply held and personal decision of the child’s. The school, in this scenario, is merely a polite bystander—at most, a kindly chaperone. It’s not the school’s job to ask mom and dad for their approval.

The first is absurd; the second, dishonest. Why would a teen agree to keep a secret from her parents, if not for the presence of abuse? Well, as one sharp Twitter user pointed out in response to the documents I posted, one can think of a few things a teen might want to keep secret from mom: an eating disorder; her decision to join a religious cult; her dabbling in drugs; a decision to send or post nudes; or have sex with a much older boy. Teens tend to keep from mom and dad a wide variety of healthy and unhealthy teenage experimentations—sometimes to avoid parental protest; sometimes, just for the pubertal frisson.

And in virtually none of these cases is the primary motivation to keep secrets from parents necessarily fear of abuse. Sometimes it’s to avoid—groan—another lecture or even a conversation. Other times, teens keep something a secret just to avoid a “No.”

Which, in fact, is what the schools seem to want to avoid as well. The non-stop sex-and-gender celebration that begins in many public-school Kindergartens is an attempt to liberate children from any traces of sexual innocence.

Take for example, The 57 Bus: A True Story of Two Teenagers and The Crime that Changed Their Lives – required reading in middle school English classes in the Dublin Unified school district of California. This Stonewall Book Award Winner is chock full of rather questionable educational material: so many “motherfuckers,” “damn, pussy, bitch f*ck!” one boy offering to suck another boy’s “prick”, teen transgender epiphanies, and suicide fantasies—one might think it had been written by an eighth grader rather than pressed on them by the adults running the school.

Lest a child miss the Gender Ideology amid the sad attempt at prose, the author provides a glossary—not for words an eighth grader might not know, but for conceptual building blocks of a world it hopes to summon into existence: “asexual,” “gender fluid,” “gender questioning,” and, of course “transgender.” (Imagine thinking there was a single teenager left in America who needed that one defined.)

To take just one scene from the book, “Watching [the YouTube video], Samantha felt something chime inside her—a bell vibrating in resonance. Before puberty, her physical body didn’t seem to have that much to do with who she was. . . . But now, being a girl was like being stuffed into a heavy, constricting costume.” And then: “I think I might be . . . transgender?” Quelle surprise.

Very often, parents lack the time and, frankly, the dark imagination necessary to uncover what their children are being taught. When parents object to a teacher or principal, they are frequently met with, at best, polite confusion. What’s the problem? We’re a “safe space” here. Parents get nowhere.

A peculiar power imbalance has arisen between public school teachers and the parents for whom the necessity of work renders them too dependent on these schools to question them. Parents discover radical materials pushed on their children by accident, like passersby happening on a crime scene. They are treated as interlopers, trespassers; they are made to understand they have no right to be there; information on the ideology pushed on their kids is revealed on a strictly need-to-know basis. When parents do object to classroom gender ideology, they’re treated as morally obtuse or child abusers.

The contempt shown parents would be inexcusable even if teachers stuck to reading, writing and arithmetic. In a time when so many public school teachers are properly described as activists, that arrangement strips children of their families’ protection. And families must indeed protect them from an ideology that would turn students against any adult who suggests that a seventh grader suddenly jonesing for hormones and surgeries slow down. I have more than once wondered whether public schools that would openly pit students against their families, turn them against themselves and each other, aren’t doing more harm than good.

I mean no disrespect to teachers when I point out the obvious: the moment a middle-schooler whom they’ve encouraged to transition graduates to high school, they more or less wash their hands of him. Soon after the janitors have stripped the lockers clean and rolled fresh paint on the walls, teachers will mentally and emotionally prepare for the next crop of students. They may remember a few fondly—but that does little for a child they’ve set on a medically perilous path toward a dramatic identity swap. If it backfires – as it will in so many instances – it won’t be the seventh-grade music teacher who contends for years with the damage.

All of which might make you wonder, how on earth are schools getting away with this? Is there no law that bars public schools from concealing a “coming out” to parents? Actually, there really isn’t—not a good enough federal law, anyway.

The Federal Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) grants parents various rights with respect to their children’s education records. But as former Department of Education lawyer, Candice Jackson, explained to me, schools easily skirt this law.

f a record isn’t kept in a centralized location then it doesn’t need to be considered an ‘education record’ legally. So that’s just one example of how schools have noted, ‘Yes, FERPA could be a problem for keeping stuff from parents, so let’s make sure that documentation and forms that are filled out around gender aren’t kept in the central location where the school keeps records.’
For the past year, parents have been placed in the absurd situation of playing Whack-a-Mole with the worst excesses of Woke ideology. A book here, a curriculum there. It’s exhausting—and it’s a losing game of endless defense. Time for offense.

This is where the most critical cultural battle will be fought. Not with reckless doctors, for whom lawsuits are coming. Not even with the therapists—in many cases, a luxury, parents can walk away from. It will be fought with America’s activist teachers. Will we allow the activists among them unaccountable access to the next generation of America’s children?

If conservatives and liberals hope to save this country, this is where they will place their energies: campaigning for federal legislation to grant parents full access to all curricula. And no, granting parents’ review over sex-education materials alone wouldn’t solve this problem, since the SOGI (Sexual Orientation & Gender Identity) curriculum, for instance, is often inserted into other areas of the curriculum or disguised as “anti-bullying” education. We need legislation that grants parents a right to opt out of any instruction regarding gender and sexuality and stops schools from changing a child’s name, gender marker, or pronouns without the approval of a parent or legal guardian. This has nothing to do with “outing” students and everything to do with whether a school should be permitted to hoodwink the primary locus of love and responsibility in her life.

For Pete’s sake, the state requires that teachers ask parental consent before they offer a child Tylenol. Maybe the state should require schools ask parents before inculcating a whole new identity for their child. Indeed, federal law should insist upon it.

Funny thing about this “debate” over parental rights: it cuts clear across party lines. Republican, Democrat, gay, straight—the Mama Bears of America have a very particular idea of what sorts of identities we’ll allow other adults to push on our minor children. Those insisting that teachers must “protect” seventh graders from their parents—they are rarely parents themselves. What they demand is continued unmonitored access to your children. It’s past time we stopped giving it to them.
 
Public schools are in a state of total war against human existence and use the children as weapons. The teachers are the Sargent Schultzes of the ruling class, and they are so stupid they think they can tell the students not to tell their parents and the students will all obey.

Not just about troonery, either. The whole critical race theory business is another instance of the same. Probably other issues too. It's just the way things are done in Clown World.
 
Wow, this forum is a shit show.
Let's go over the basics:
Among humans, there is a huge diversity of sexual development. Sex and gender are complicated; many elements go into their making. The following pieces are all needed in the development/construction of complete femaleness or maleness:

Sex chromosomes – xx for a female, xy for a male

Primary sex characteristics – vagina, ovaries and uterus for a female, penis and testes for a male

Brain Sex – not masculinized for a female, masculinized for a male

Gender Identity – “woman” for a female, “man” for a male

Gender Expression – “feminine” for a female, “masculine” for a male

Hormones and secondary sexual characteristics – high estrogen and progesterone for a female, high testosterone for a male

At any point in the development process, one of these elements might swerve from the norm. A difference at any of these levels creates some form of “gender variance.” This applies to sexualities as well which are separate from gender.

Also, for each of these different sexually dimorphic traits, some people’s anatomies will fall “in between” or “outside of” what most people consider to be standard for female or male.

As one example, some people with androgen insensitivity have XY chromosomes, internal testes, and external female genitalia. Traits, including hormone levels, can also vary widely both within and across sexes. But people who fall outside of what’s considered normal face discrimination. Take South African runner Caster Semenya, who was recently the subject of a ruling that ordered her to lower her naturally high testosterone levels to compete with other female runners — even though studies have shown that because testosterone levels are so highly variable, there’s overlap between the natural testosterone levels of men and women.

Students are often inaccurately taught that all babies inherit either XX or XY sex chromosomes, and that having XX chromosomes makes you female, while XY makes you male. In reality, people can have XXY, XYY, X, XXX, or other combinations of chromosomes — all of which can result in a variety of sex characteristics. It’s also true that some people with XX chromosomes develop typically male reproductive systems, and some people with XY chromosomes develop typically female reproductive systems.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

http://theconversation.com/how-genes-and-evolution-shape-gender-and-transgender-identity-108911

http://theconversation.com/stop-calling-it-a-choice-biological-factors-drive-homosexuality-122764

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30247609

https://massivesci.com/articles/sex-gender-intersex-transgender-identity-discrimination-title-ix/

https://www.dovepress.com/gender-dy...een-genet-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-AHMT

Now you may think these are just "genetic abnormalities" however: http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

It’s common to hear the phrase “all babies start out female, and it’s only later that they become male,” and this is at least partially true. In fact, the influence of testosterone on a fetus has been described as a defeminization process, changing a fetus which was essentially predestined to be female into male. (Gooren, 2006) Testosterone production and the conversion of some testosterone to dihydrotestosterone between weeks 6 and 12 of pregnancy is critical for the initial development of male features, such as the penis, prostate gland, and scrotum. (Bao) In the absence of these male hormones, female genitalia develop instead. Brain development, however, does not occur in earnest until the second half of the pregnancy term, after the genitals have been developed, and the continued presence of male hormones results in a brain which has subtle, but critical physical differences from the female brain. (Bao)
The fact that the brain and the genitals develop at different times in the womb mean that a misalignment between the genitals and brain may develop, leading to either an intersex condition, or a transgender individual.
Accordingly, "some people may cross-dress, some may want to socially transition," and others may decide to medically transition with hormone therapies or gender affirmation surgery notes the American Psychiatric Association.

And those who do so are almost always shown to be in good health: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...ng-term-mental-health-benefits-study-n1079911

https://www.transadvocate.com/cling...of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/2018090...image-sexual-functioning-and-quality-of-life/

https://genderanalysis.net/2015/09/...ransitioning-is-effective-gender-analysis-10/

https://genderanalysis.net/2019/12/...-gender-clinics-are-overwhelmingly-satisfied/

https://web.archive.org/web/2018090...eversal-statistics-a-clearer-picture-emerges/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnst...tic-gender-at-early-age-just-like-other-kids/

https://kathrynhgordon.com/2018/05/...ed-statements-from-a-viral-ben-shapiro-video/


It is clear from all the complications and variations in sexual development that the ideas of male and female are not so simple for many people. Intersexed conditions are more common than once thought, with 1/1000 people having chromosomal intersexuality, and 1/100 having atypical body development. If being transgender involves an intersexed brain condition (and it does), then the fractions are even lower.

How, then, do we define male and female? Is it by chromosomes? But chromosomes are only the blueprint; the body can develop quite differently than planned. Is it by body structure? But the body’s physical development can be ambiguous, mixed, or in opposition to both chromosomes and gender identity. Is it hormones? But hormones can be unpredictable, and all they do is bring forth the already latent potential for masculinity or femininity. Is it by brain sex? For people who have transgender identities, determining their maleness or femaleness based on their brain sex or brain id makes the most sense, although others seem to think it delusional.

What some call "biological sex" depends on a lot of factors going in a certain direction which we shouldn't take for granted.

Now while I know the concern is high that this is "mutiliation" but this relies on some pretty incorrect sources, such as the fact the main sources came from a group that detransitors found to be hateful: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/e07dl9/with_neovagina_disasters_banned_is_this_sub_next/

There is also the fact that some detransitioners weren't forced but went though by their own will...until they decided to no longer take responsibility: https://medium.com/@Tammy_Beth/say-hello-to-walt-heyer-2-0-93d35b1c9c17

Likewise the fear of puberty blockers is completely overblown: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1153424052712890368.html

As is vaginoplasty procedures. Using a single study from 2009 as a source like the op does isn't very smart: https://genderanalysis.net/2020/03/...uth-continue-or-discontinue-puberty-blockers/

And while I feel for detransitioners, the majority of them do so for reasons the more vocal of them ignore:
https://www.gdaworkinggroup.com/desistance-articles-and-critique
 
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Your words have no value or in troon speak: Your bullshit isn't valid. Only a crazy troon can look at all these horribly multilated genitals and still be like "Yep, this is fine."
I never said it was fine. I was pointing out that it is overblown: https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-...-drive-detransition-among-transgender-people/

Everyone here see transitioning surgies as being ran by an evil cabal.

Case in point:

What happened to this young man is terrible and there are thousands of Jazz Jennings' out there who are left sterilized, multilated and forever unable to experience their bodies like normal people. What's happening here is a crime. Dr. Mengele would be so proud.

Except Jazz recovered very well: https://twitter.com/jazzjennings__/status/1229953822468067328?lang=en

Misgendering her however isn't right.

How many mutiliations have you found, compared to the amount of those who have gone through surgery and are alright? I will bet a fraction of a percent: https://genderanalysis.net/2018/06/...rans-women-confirmed-once-again-in-new-study/

But I guess it is easier to ignore all this to make your outrage feel "justified". You must be the good guys after all.
 
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Why would I read about disorders of sexual development in a thread about documenting elective surgeries taken by physically normal men and women? Take it elsewhere.
Ah you must believe in "biological sex":
It is clear from all the complications and variations in sexual development that the ideas of male and female are not so simple for many people. Intersexed conditions are more common than once thought, with 1/1000 people having chromosomal intersexuality, and 1/100 having atypical body development. If being transgender involves an intersexed brain condition (and it does), then the fractions are even lower.

How, then, do we define male and female? Is it by chromosomes? But chromosomes are only the blueprint; the body can develop quite differently than planned. Is it by body structure? But the body’s physical development can be ambiguous, mixed, or in opposition to both chromosomes and gender identity. Is it hormones? But hormones can be unpredictable, and all they do is bring forth the already latent potential for masculinity or femininity. Is it by brain sex? For people who have transgender identities, determining their maleness or femaleness based on their brain sex or brain id makes the most sense, although others seem to think it delusional.

What some call "biological sex" depends on a lot of factors going in a certain direction which we shouldn't take for granted.

This is why is it that these "elective" surgeries are successful at alleviating gender dysphoria: https://web.archive.org/web/2018090...image-sexual-functioning-and-quality-of-life/
 
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