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A few more words from an atheist

I know there’s been a number of stories about this, but I wanted to add another perspective from a nonbeliever. The friction between faith traditions and non-believers is bound to grow in America, especially if the Christian population continues to contract and the “unaffiliated” grows. I honestly believe that this friction is healthy for the most part—it is long past time for atheists to have the right to safely express their thoughts while the faithful need to have their sense of “religion as default” challenged. With this in mind, I wanted to say a few things mostly to my religious DKos brothers and sisters.

First, it’s useful to recall that for most of human history, being an atheist almost anywhere in the world was dangerous, both socially and physically. In many places it still is, including in the United States. Being a member of a loathed and vilified community based solely on a lack of religious faith can easily breed anger and contempt—especially when anyone can look about and see the harm that many religious institutions are doing. And it doesn’t help that our culture remains suffused with religion—it’s everywhere and there is no escaping it, even within our so-called secular public institutions.

But atheists are generally expected to accept this state of affairs with either appreciation or silence. There is a long-standing notion that religious beliefs should be “respected”, which I have always understood to mean never questioned, criticized, or mocked. Regardless of how frequently atheism is maligned and misrepresented, we are to treat religion as honorable and faith as a virtue—and if we don’t, that is merely further evidence of our depravity and bitter character.

Of course, there are many good Christians—I honestly understand the impulse behind the #NotAllChristians response. [Note: I’m singling out Christianity because it is the majority religion in the US, but this is all relevant to religion in general.] But sometimes this fact is used to shame atheists back into silence with some version of the “few bad apples” argument.

However, from an atheistic perspective, this is a trite and arbitrary defense. Since we generally don’t accept the Bible as authoritative (and certainly not divinely inspired), we don’t believe that there is a “true” interpretation of scripture. Many atheists argue that the fundamental problem lies in exactly this illusion. Since the Abrahamic religions rely on faith (as opposed to, say, empiricism), any given interpretation is as “good” as another. The Bible is large and incongruous enough to justify almost any opinion one might have about it’s teachings.

Which is all to say, many atheists aren’t convinced that religion, nor religious people, deserve the protection from questions, criticism, or mockery that they have enjoyed for so long. The relative safety of the Internet now makes it impossible to hold back that tide. And as atheism grows (especially amongst the younger generations), our voice will inevitably grow with it. But don’t forget, atheists remain greatly outnumbered for now; we have little to no real power outside of the influence of our words. The last thing we’re going to do is be quiet.

A FEW WORDS TO LIBERAL CHRISTIANS AND PEOPLE OF FAITH
  • Many atheists do not speak out against religion from a place of bitterness, but from a place of aspiration—a desire to see a better world that religion prevents.
  • The large majority of atheists don’t hate you and are not trying to destroy your religion or outlaw your right to worship. Some of us, however, are trying to persuade you to question your faith or religion itself, and that’s not the same thing.
  • Many people have a natural impulse to want religion to stay private, and on an individual level I live by this principle myself. But religion itself is not private. It’s deeply embedded in American culture—in our movies and television shows, political speeches and public board meetings, streets lined with churches, billboards, school performances, water cooler conversations, asks for donations to religious charities, magazine interviews, sponsors of kid’s sports teams, dangling on necklaces, and on and on. Religion gets to “speak” constantly. It’s the “default”. And because of this, it can be uncomfortable to hear atheists voicing an alternative point of view, which can result in efforts to silence us with accusations of arrogance, intolerance, bigotry, ignorance, sinfulness, and all other manner of horrible traits (just read some of the comments below). But we are not on an even playing field and there is no escape from religion in America. Please try to remember this when you are inspired to convince an atheist to be quiet.
  • Religion is neither necessary for nor indicative of moral character. Faith gives no one an ethical advantage. There is no good thing a religious person can do that an atheist cannot. That which is morally good within religion can be had outside of that religion.
  • Voicing criticism and mockery of beliefs that you hold is not the same as attacking or oppressing you personally. You do not have a right to be free of offense based on religion. For those who are easily upset at religious criticism, you would be well served by thickening your skin a bit and remembering that if any given critique or disparagement by an atheist doesn’t apply to you, then it doesn’t apply to you.
  • The problems with religion will not be solved with sectarianism. There will never be a “victory” of the true, good expression of religious scripture. As many atheists see it, the fundamental problem is with the concept of faith in scripture itself. As long as people believe that scripture holds the keys to divine truth and salvation, there will be dogma, fundamentalism, and hurtful religious ideology in the name of any given exegesis. This is what many of us ultimately are fighting against, and this is bound to cause friction.
A FEW WORDS TO ATHEISTS AND NONBELIEVERS
  • The last thing I would do is ask you to be silent or censure yourself. But I would ask that you contemplate what you are trying to accomplish with any given communication. If you are trying to persuade, then there are well-known methods of doing that, and using language that your target audience would likely take offense to generally reinforces their pre-existing positions. Yes, there are times when provocative language is called for, and I know how to sling it myself. I would merely encourage you to develop a full rhetorical toolbox rather than limit yourself to just a hammer.
  • It can be very useful rhetorically to differentiate between the belief and the believer. No one wants to be told they are stupid, irrational, childish, or unethical, either directly or by implication. And doing so within the context of DailyKos is certainly counterproductive. However, it is possible to be critical of religion without being critical of believers. Two fantastic examples of this is Drew McCoy (better known as Genetically Modified Skeptic on YouTube) and Hemant Mehta (the Friendly Atheist). Again, I’m not saying anyone “should” speak like them, only that their approach is often effective. Even someone as fiery as Matt Dillahunty can change it up depending on the context (here’s a great example).
  • There is something to the argument about inviting unnecessary strife within the Democratic coalition. For instance, as much as I support the aspirations of BLM, I believe their attacks on Bernie Sanders and other Democrats played a role in our 2016 defeat. In no way does that mean I’m arguing that atheists shouldn’t critique religion on DailyKos. I actually think we should. But I also think we can do it here without using such a large brush that we create hard dividing lines. Yes, we should debate, but we all belong in the tent, and disagreement does not have to impair solidarity.
 
My disbelief has nothing to do with scientific evidence or proof. Sure I guess on a base level I can’t see it therefore I can’t believe it.
I do not feel god and nothing short of a supernatural experience is going to change my mind. I keep hoping something like that happens in my life because I feel it will open my mind to the idea of god but it never happens.
You say that, but I have had a brush with the supernatural, and I have a friend that has dealt with it substantially, and I think sometimes people have a difficult time accepting the supernatural even when they experience it.

With that said, perhaps you should pray to God that He guides you toward Him. I would also recommend you read the Bible as well; it would be much more difficult to develop spiritually without reading His word, to say the least.
 
The usual atheist response is some variation of demanding a miracle to be presented to you immediately.
"The fucking miracle you want is that because I believe you are one of God's creatures and might be redeemed is in itself a miracle and it's a fucking miracle I'm not cutting your fucking head off and parading it around your apartment complex, you sub-human faggot."

They never seem to appreciate the subtlety and miraculous nature of such a miracle.
 
You say that, but I have had a brush with the supernatural, and I have a friend that has dealt with it substantially, and I think sometimes people have a difficult time accepting the supernatural even when they experience it.

With that said, perhaps you should pray to God that He guides you toward Him. I would also recommend you read the Bible as well; it would be much more difficult to develop spiritually without reading His word, to say the least.

I think people experience it multiple times in their lives at least but are not even cognizant of it. There was a moment in my life that removed all doubts I had for good. Then I began to wonder which times I did experience something but didn't realize it.

Being myself a Catholic who somehow agreed with this,



now I'd say it's not correct.

Every society's morals were defined by the religion they originated from. That's why the values of Muslims are so different from the values of Christians or Jews. Even though people might not be religious or atheists, their uprising was defined by a set of values equally defined by their ancestors. So, the idea that "we don't need religion to be good" is not necessarily supported by evidence. Any atheist nowadays was raised with the religious values that were used to raise their parents.

This is why atheists are retards who shouldn't be entertained. Even those who claim "derrr, I read the Bible and know more about the faith than actual Christians do" maybe some but your understanding is so shallow. All of Western society, every aspect goes right back to the Christian faith for millennia. The Bible is the single cultural reference point in all Western literature. You exist in a Christian culture where nearly all of our traditions originate from it whether you like it or not.

Equality in the eyes of the law as one example is a distinctly Christian understanding of what a legal structure is. How did this come to be? Christian scholars of the early Middle Ages evaluated old Roman law and came to the conclusion that Roman laws were not suited to Christian society. This is because Roman law was largely focused on how to mediate and settle disputes between classes of people. Eventually leading to Common Law and the modern variation of it that we have in the United States, for example.
 
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I think people experience it multiple times in their lives at least but are not even cognizant of it. There was a moment in my life that removed all doubts I had for good. Then I began to wonder which times I did experience something but didn't realize it.
Would you be willing to share your experiences?
 
You say that, but I have had a brush with the supernatural, and I have a friend that has dealt with it substantially, and I think sometimes people have a difficult time accepting the supernatural even when they experience it.

With that said, perhaps you should pray to God that He guides you toward Him. I would also recommend you read the Bible as well; it would be much more difficult to develop spiritually without reading His word, to say the least.
One of the problems with demanding that God proves he exists is that an atheist could witness a Godly being poof into being in front of him and perform miracles, but then dismiss it as an alien pretending to be God or a hallucination or something. You need the same amount of faith to believe that an observed miracle has a supernatural origin as you do to believe that miracles could even happen at all, so why would God bother? A doubter is still going to doubt no matter what he/she sees. That's why Jesus said "Blessed are those who do not see, and yet still believe."

I'd say better proof lies in the fact that Christian societies are more functional in the long run and have higher birth rates. (And before you yeet in with "B-b-b-but Norway and Sweden!", keep in mind that in 100 years, they're going to be vastly changed from what they are now, thanks to immigration and low fertility rates. ) Christianity also posits that the world and human nature are flawed and unperfectable. Christians who do Christianity wrong and Communists (but I repeat myself) believe that human beings can be coerced into being good, which destroys the whole reason for Free Will.
 
One of the problems with demanding that God proves he exists is that an atheist could witness a Godly being poof into being in front of him and perform miracles, but then dismiss it as an alien pretending to be God or a hallucination or something. You need the same amount of faith to believe that an observed miracle has a supernatural origin as you do to believe that miracles could even happen at all, so why would God bother? A doubter is still going to doubt no matter what he/she sees. That's why Jesus said "Blessed are those who do not see, and yet still believe."
I mean you just need to see how Jesus was treated to know how exactly people will react to God standing in front of them and performing a miracle.
 
That only lends itself to uncertainty, not to proactively proving randomness.

Also as far as people invoking quantum this and that, let’s not assume that humans are capable of perceiving all dimensions, or that we’ve discovered all laws of physics and sources of energy.
But then you're basically just getting into religious vs athiest argumentation again. If you can't prove this either way then you cannot definitively say we're in a deterministic universe, either.
 
I love it when there's infighting at DailyKos. They always fall into these retarded purity spirals and can never agree on who is more oppressed than who.
 
But then you're basically just getting into religious vs athiest argumentation again. If you can't prove this either way then you cannot definitively say we're in a deterministic universe, either.
I think that the problem with using particle decay to try to disprove causality is that we don’t know enough about it, and it’s just far more likely that the unpredictability of it is due to lack of information.

I could argue that going into such a fringe area to find anything at all that disproves causality is a bit desperate.

In a very general sense, the more information we have about something, the more accurate our predictions become. When science advances and we become capable of gathering more information to build models from, and on the occasion that we discover a new variable to track, our predictions consistently become more accurate.

To me, trying to keep alive one tiny spark of mysticism, like particle decay, to disprove causality with is a bit like.. a religious belief.

So back to my point.. that’s what atheists are clinging to.
 
I used to find the fundie Christians to be some of the most annoying around, just because they’d repost bible quotes everywhere when unprompted.

That was ten years ago.

Nowadays, atheists are the vegans of religion. You don’t ever have to ask them what their beliefs are, because they’ll usually tell you within ten minutes unprompted.

The euphoric atheists also tend to be the most pretentious, condescending people around with surface level understanding of the sciences; which is why they get really mad when you point out that the greatest scientists in human history were Christians, Jews and Muslims.

Atheists on the other hand haven’t contributed a whole lot in comparison.

At least the Christians in my area throw cool BBQs with the Muslims while mutually dunking on euphoric atheists.
 
I think that the problem with using particle decay to try to disprove causality is that we don’t know enough about it, and it’s just far more likely that the unpredictability of it is due to lack of information.

I could argue that going into such a fringe area to find anything at all that disproves causality is a bit desperate.

In a very general sense, the more information we have about something, the more accurate our predictions become. When science advances and we become capable of gathering more information to build models from, and on the occasion that we discover a new variable to track, our predictions consistently become more accurate.

To me, trying to keep alive one tiny spark of mysticism, like particle decay, to disprove causality with is a bit like.. a religious belief.

So back to my point.. that’s what atheists are clinging to.
Acting like we know everything's patterns outside of quantum bullshit just with data gathered mostly in the last two - three average human lifetimes seems like a religious feat to me though. It doesn't necessarily need to exactly be atheist dogma to have 'scientism' be a religion in itself. Even if you couldn't see that in the last few decades just a few years of covid dogma should have proven it can occur. The whole deterministic philosophy just feels like an extension of that even if current evidence seems to go towards it. Especially when it's used as an excuse for all kinds of cultish chicanery. I get your point but I don't think it should just be accepted as is.
 
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