Anti-Vax Movement

[An Ounce of Vagina]

The Anti-Vaccine movement going to be forgotten when the upcoming outbreaks of once eradicated diseases come around.

Sadly there is a good amount of people who have the memory of a goldfish and blind themselves from the events of the past. The only way they learn when their friends and family are crippled with disease, or they just blame it on the government or the sodomites or whatnot.

Sadly no, they just say it was something totally unrelated that killed their children or "Heaven needed a new angel." or some other iron-age superstition. The only thing society can do is make vaccinations mandatory, and imprison neglectful, abuse parents who deny them to their children.

 

[Alex Krycek]

The only thing society can do is make vaccinations mandatory, and imprison neglectful, abuse parents who deny them to their children.

I wouldn't go quite that extreme. I'm not entirely sure how certain religious minorities (Amish, Hasidic Jews, Strangite Mormons) view vaccination. I wouldn't at any point force them based on religious beliefs or even the morons who believe in Holistics to vaccinate. I would however point out that while much of the rest of society is trekking on many of the latter camp would likely be dying or undergoing expensive and preventable medical procedures. The former groups tend to live in pretty isolated areas anyway (except the Hasidic Jews of New York) so I'd imagine they'd have less chance to contract any such diseases.

 

[Dalish]

I wouldn't go quite that extreme. I'm not entirely sure how certain religious minorities (Amish, Hasidic Jews, Strangite Mormons) view vaccination. I wouldn't at any point force them based on religious beliefs or even the morons who believe in Holistics to vaccinate. I would however point out that while much of the rest of society is trekking on many of the latter camp would likely be dying or undergoing expensive and preventable medical procedures. The former groups tend to live in pretty isolated areas anyway (except the Hasidic Jews of New York) so I'd imagine they'd have less chance to contract any such diseases.

Uh, Jews regularly use vaccines, even the Orthodox and Hasidic. In fact, Judaism stresses the importance of the health of the community v your individual choices. There are some small numbers of ORTHODOX Jews who abstain from immunization, but they are being shunned by the community at large.

What does happen is 'Messianic Jews' AKA Christians (as no Jews believe in Jesus as son of God) skew the numbers. Most of them come from a very fundamentalist Christian background.

 

[Alex Krycek]

Uh, Jews regularly use vaccines, even the Orthodox and Hasidic. In fact, Judaism stresses the importance of the health of the community v your individual choices. There are some small numbers of ORTHODOX Jews who abstain from immunization, but they are being shunned by the community at large.

What does happen is 'Messianic Jews' AKA Christians (as no Jews believe in Jesus as son of God) skew the numbers. Most of them come from a very fundamentalist Christian background.

Knew that about the Messianic Jews and I agree on as much. I just really wasn't sure about those sects of Orthodox Judaism since I'm not as familiar with them as I am Karaism and mainstream Reformed/Liberal Judaism.

 

[AnOminous]

My question is how they even came up with the ridiculous premise that vaccinations cause Autism.

A scumbag named Andrew Wakefield. He got a bogus study published in The Lancet, a usually highly respectable medical publication that subsequently, far too long after the initial publication, admitted it should never have been published and the study was faked. His license to practice medicine was revoked as well.

Needless to say, the antivax nuts just decided that was persecution by the mainstream medical establishment and kept on believing their stupid shit. Also, the basis of the idea was that mercury in vaccinations (in thimerosal), was the cause. They've stopped using that preservative to appease the loonies, not understanding that loonies aren't interested in facts in the first place.

Wakefield, as his main accomplishment in life, will be one of the few doctors to have killed more people than serial killer Dr. Harold Shipman.

 

[Peace and Harmony]

Sadly no, they just say it was something totally unrelated that killed their children or "Heaven needed a new angel." or some other iron-age superstition. The only thing society can do is make vaccinations mandatory, and imprison neglectful, abuse parents who deny them to their children.

I guess this is what makes the issue so exasperating. I'm guessing that nobody here is anti-vaccine and in any case all the scientific literature says that anti-vaccine people are flat-out wrong, so there's no debate there. The problem is that the government forcing people to get vaccines (theoretically) would make it a civil liberties issue, and there's lots of grey areas to that one.

 

[Vitriol]

The Anti vax crowd is interesting as it is an example of a kind of twist on horseshoe theory: one finds both far right ''christians' and lefty new age crystal healers together with paranoid libertarian types and tumblr sjw's all sharing the same long debunked info graphics and logical fallacies through social media. If there is a common thread in these groups its probably a shared dislike of 'big pharma' and a tendancy to frequent echo chambers.

Conspiracy therory woo salesmen have been known to cross pollinate diverse fringe groups with nonsense like with OPCA ideas popular both in far right millitia groups and new age groups.

 

[AnOminous]

I guess this is what makes the issue so exasperating. I'm guessing that nobody here is anti-vaccine and in any case all the scientific literature says that anti-vaccine people are flat-out wrong, so there's no debate there. The problem is that the government forcing people to get vaccines (theoretically) would make it a civil liberties issue, and there's lots of grey areas to that one.

Children don't have civil liberties not to be vaccinated. Even if one presumes the right of parents to withhold needed medical care, and I don't, one doesn't have the right to endanger others by sending some filthy little disease vector out to infect their children. Entry into shared environments like school can be made contingent upon vaccination. Endangering one's children and society at large because of insane delusions is almost prima facie evidence of unfitness as a parent.

There is a previous case of someone who had to have her liberties curtailed because of an obstinate insistence on spreading deadly diseases: Typhoid Mary.

The antivax nuts should be treated no differently.

ETA: Oh and because I immediately veered off on a tangent, I do agree about adults having the right to refuse vaccination, at least in general principle. They don't necessarily have the right to be around others when doing that, though, and could reasonably be excluded from public places, especially those with vulnerable populations, especially if we have some deadlier or more transmissible disease that is a current issue.

And I think forcible vaccinations of adults could also be reasonable, given a more serious epidemic than any we currently have.

 

[fuzzypickles]

Restaurant workers are required by law to wash their hands after using the restroom, and driving and using a cell phone is illegal in most jurisdictions I could think of, just to give a few examples of the government imposing laws for the greater good of the community at large. If the same logic is applied to vaccinating one's children, we wouldn't be hearing of measles and rubella outbreaks today. I wholeheartedly endorse An Ounce of Vagina's idea for what ought to be done to parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, as in my opinion, this is a case where the good of the community overrules "personal liberties" and other excuses not to do the right thing.

 

[Vitriol]

I think we can all wholeheartedly endorse An Ounce of Vagina.

 

[IwegalBadnik]

An interesting test would be a trick needle that appears to inject a (placebo) agent, but the needle simple pokes the person (but does not break the skin) but appears to observers to be a normal injection.

Watch the anti-vaxers cry at the aftermath of a placebo of a placebo...

 

[Henry Bemis]

Sadly no, they just say it was something totally unrelated that killed their children or "Heaven needed a new angel." or some other iron-age superstition. The only thing society can do is make vaccinations mandatory, and imprison neglectful, abuse parents who deny them to their children.

Is a citizens' arrest an option here? Drum up a support base and and descend upon these folks (however respectfully, to avoid harassment claims). And if they should try to dodge it and still complain about being harassed, well, boo-fucking-hoo.

This is not a trolling plan; this is for all our sakes.

 

[Vitriol]

citizens arrests are generally really bad ideas.

if you are going to attempt one, film it and share it here

 

[MayMay]

"Upcoming"? We've already got outbreaks of measles that are worse than anything we've seen in decades.

Don't forget the pro-measels books!

Also, am I too late to post this? http://robertmoorejr.tumblr.com/post/110101466091/im-an-anti-braker Pretty sure it's satire. Pretty sure.

 

[Philosophy Zombie]

Here is the top Amazon review for Melanie's Marvelous Measles.

If you enjoyed this book, check out these other fine titles from the same author:


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I am going to hell for laughing at this.

 

[AnOminous]

citizens arrests are generally really bad ideas.

if you are going to attempt one, film it and share it here

I just did one on an antivaxer about 10 minutes ago.

 

[Peace and Harmony]

And I think forcible vaccinations of adults could also be reasonable, given a more serious epidemic than any we currently have.

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I came upon this article in The Economist a month ago and I thought it raised some interesting points. You don't have to agree with it, of course, but the conclusion is as follows:

I suspect Cassandra has some dotty ideas about chemotherapy. Perhaps she inherited them from her mom. It may be that if she were allowed to act on her dotty ideas, she would die, while chemotherapy may save her (Hodgkin Lymphoma is one of the more treatable cancers). But liberty is a completely empty ideal if we are free to act only when our conception of our interests coincides with those of experts, medical and otherwise. If we are entitled to choose on our own behalf—or on our children's behalf—only when we are deemed rational, and rationality is defined to mean a consensus with the authorities, then autonomy is a bad joke. Cassandra's case illustrates the technocratic tendency of American culture and politics to nibble away at the edges of our autonomy, to deprive us of the right to make anything but the medically correct choice.​

And yes, there is indeed a line to be drawn between individual liberty versus the health of the public, but I feel that one must always be careful when dealing with cases like this, even when the opposing side (anti-vax) is clearly off its rocker.

EDIT: And just to be completely clear, I think anti-vax people are universally ignorant, selfish, ridiculous, and delusional. In no way to I side with their point of view whatsoever.

 

[Jozef]

The reason why autism seems to be on the rise is because a lot more is known about the condition today, and it's easily identified and diagnosed. Of course, anyone who's stupid and selfish enough to let all these fatal diseases make a comeback by not vaccinating their children wouldn't listen to logic.
It wouldn't be so bad if non-vaccinated people were exiled somewhere remote, or if responsible, vaccinated people couldn't catch the disease.

 

[Billy_Sama]

While Penn Jillette is a has some questionable ideas, he nails the vaccination issue on the head.

 

[Positron]

The Anti-Vaccine movement going to be forgotten when the upcoming outbreaks of once eradicated diseases come around.

They'll just claim said outbreak is a germ warfare deliberately released by military labs -- the Government in collusion with Big Phama.