- Joined
- Jan 27, 2020
Computer Chronicles is a good place to start.
anyone here into retro computing
- Thread starter WhitePaperKat
- Start date
NoSpiceLife
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2024
Considering my username, I should have visited this thread a bit earlier.
What I own:
- Super Socket 7 Baby AT with AMD K6-2+
- Pentium 2 at 300 mhz
- Amd Sempron 2200+ on a VIA KT600
I do have a question. I would like to overclock the Sempron CPU and I was thinking if it is worth buying an Al heatsink and copper base with 80mm fan or a full copper heatsink but with 60mm fan?
What I own:
- Super Socket 7 Baby AT with AMD K6-2+
- Pentium 2 at 300 mhz
- Amd Sempron 2200+ on a VIA KT600
I do have a question. I would like to overclock the Sempron CPU and I was thinking if it is worth buying an Al heatsink and copper base with 80mm fan or a full copper heatsink but with 60mm fan?
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2021
I can guarantee the Classics’ analog boards are also screwed up. With the Plus it’s the joints, with the Classic it’s the caps, diodes, and maybe even the optocoupler
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2018
I'm thinking about putting the 286 (late gen HT12[pdf] chipset one) I mentioned earlier in this thread together as a full system. Since "modern SCSI drives" are easy to get now I wanna go the SCSI route on it. I have all hardware to make it period appropiate without buying anything. Wonder if It's a waste of time. I am mostly using a MediaGX (~later Pentium MMX era speed) SBC for DOS computing, but it really struggles with being slowed down for some old games and programs, and also has no game port. (or a simple way to add one) I'd even have early VGA chipset cards (e.g. GD510A/520A) for the 286 that have digital and analog output and usually are more compatible with old games. EGA cards I also have en masse and might be fun to play around with, too. A Sound Blaster 2.0 is there too.
I'd also have an 8088 board, but that's a bit too low end in what I wanna cover.
I also have a IBM PS/2 E which is basically a high end 386/pseudo 486. Nice thing about this one is that it has support for a PS/2 mouse. Not a lot of ways to tinker with that one though, one expansion card and that's it. I could put in a YMF/AudioDrive/Crystal based soundcard, or a Maxi Sound SC8600 which is a card that lets you upload custom General Midi sound banks into up to 20 MB of RAM you can add to the card. Sorta like the AWE but actually compatible with General Midi games and works in DOS. I'd also have a MT-32 and SC55 if I wanted to use it. Because of that one card limitation, I couldn't add networking to it though. I also have it's 4-way PCMCIA adapter card mentioned in the article with which I could add networking, but that would be a PITA and honestly not super useful.
Then I have various 386 and 486 ISA boards, where the higher end 386 boards are basically like the PS/2 E in performance but with the actual ability to mix and match expansion cards, one carries the Texas Instruments 486SLC2 CPU. Fastest Socket 3 CPU I have is the Cyrix 5x86(which is actually a relative of the MediaGX) running at 100 Mhz. Overkill but you could slow it down better I guess. I could pair it with everything from early ACUMOS VGA chipset (before it was bought up and called Cirrus Logic, with internal RAMDAC) to various true color RAMDAC ET4000 cards up to an ATI Mach 64 ISA card.
Then I have various 486 VLB and Pentium PCI boards, but those would be too fast again I think, a lot of them are also power guzzlers. I have no idea what to pick for earlier software, but I tend towards 286/386. I used a 486 VLB system for many years in the early 90s and it was in this weird limbo area where early CGA/EGA and VGA games would often run too fast, yet also too slow if you turn off turbo. Later DOS games like Duke Nukem 3D on the other hand it struggled somewhat with. (Game would freeze for a second or three if you set off a pipebomb for example) It was good for "number crunching" games tho, like Master Of Orion (turns calculated relatively quickly) and some of those very early 3D flight/combat sims. I don't think I'll play those much anymore though.
If you had almost all the common PC hardware you can think of, what would you put together?
I'd also have an 8088 board, but that's a bit too low end in what I wanna cover.
I also have a IBM PS/2 E which is basically a high end 386/pseudo 486. Nice thing about this one is that it has support for a PS/2 mouse. Not a lot of ways to tinker with that one though, one expansion card and that's it. I could put in a YMF/AudioDrive/Crystal based soundcard, or a Maxi Sound SC8600 which is a card that lets you upload custom General Midi sound banks into up to 20 MB of RAM you can add to the card. Sorta like the AWE but actually compatible with General Midi games and works in DOS. I'd also have a MT-32 and SC55 if I wanted to use it. Because of that one card limitation, I couldn't add networking to it though. I also have it's 4-way PCMCIA adapter card mentioned in the article with which I could add networking, but that would be a PITA and honestly not super useful.
Then I have various 386 and 486 ISA boards, where the higher end 386 boards are basically like the PS/2 E in performance but with the actual ability to mix and match expansion cards, one carries the Texas Instruments 486SLC2 CPU. Fastest Socket 3 CPU I have is the Cyrix 5x86(which is actually a relative of the MediaGX) running at 100 Mhz. Overkill but you could slow it down better I guess. I could pair it with everything from early ACUMOS VGA chipset (before it was bought up and called Cirrus Logic, with internal RAMDAC) to various true color RAMDAC ET4000 cards up to an ATI Mach 64 ISA card.
Then I have various 486 VLB and Pentium PCI boards, but those would be too fast again I think, a lot of them are also power guzzlers. I have no idea what to pick for earlier software, but I tend towards 286/386. I used a 486 VLB system for many years in the early 90s and it was in this weird limbo area where early CGA/EGA and VGA games would often run too fast, yet also too slow if you turn off turbo. Later DOS games like Duke Nukem 3D on the other hand it struggled somewhat with. (Game would freeze for a second or three if you set off a pipebomb for example) It was good for "number crunching" games tho, like Master Of Orion (turns calculated relatively quickly) and some of those very early 3D flight/combat sims. I don't think I'll play those much anymore though.
If you had almost all the common PC hardware you can think of, what would you put together?
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- Joined
- Aug 28, 2023
About 20 years ago I remember seeing those at Odd Job for $100 new in box complete with the matching LCD screen. I wish I had been able to get one.
I have a pile of EISA motherboards, including one with 12 slots. I wish I had a good VLB board or a 486 PCI board though because I'd really like to build a hotrod 486.
A very long time ago before I knew shit about computers I had an IBM EGA with the RAM expansion. Because I was really dumb at the time, I thought video came out of the RCA jacks. I did not have a digital monitor so I never got to see it work.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2018
I remember playing around with that idea on a industrial board with a Cyrix 5x86 years ago. Interesting thing about the 5x86 is that it has some experimental features you can toggle via software, for example branch prediction. It gave a noticeable boost but wasn't always stable, hence experimental and off by default. All this works on the MediaGX too since it's basically a smaller process 5x86 with SoC features attached to it. The 5x86 was technically still a 486 era CPU because it didn't cover Pentium-era instructions, but could still compete with the Pentium, especially in mentioned MediaGX which existed at up to 233 Mhz. If you still want to consider this processor even part of the fourth generation is a matter of perspective, I guess. It is for Socket 3, though so would fit the definition of a hotrod 486 and the fastest you can go on such a system. If you can push FSB and memory timing to the limit like I could with that industrial board, potential L2 cache basically doesn't really even do much anymore. (Possible with these very-late gen ALi chipsets you find of these boards, doubt it'd work well with a truly vintage early 90s 486 board, which usually also don't support 3.3V chips, there were 3.3V socket adapters tho) If you want to stretch the definition of the hotrod 486 even further, I guess the MediaGX SBC is one, too. With 233 Mhz probably fastest you can go with a processor that has a 486-era instruction set, especially considering that it's internal framebuffer GPU is connected via PCI. I admit that is really stretching it though.
You can also easily do EGA(CGA, anything digital really)->VGA conversion with some passive components. Of course it'll be 15 kHz, which I don't think anything that even has a VGA connector (which honestly, is not much) will still accept nowadays. There's a nice project to use the Pi to convert EGA to HDMI, which is a lot more straightforward signal-wise than using something like the OSSC, and lossless, which an analog signal by it's very nature can never truly be without some kind of parity. That said, I've used the OSSC with old VGA ISA graphics cards, and the picture is pretty much pixel-perfect. Ideally just need a 16:10 monitor that doesn't throw up at 70 Hz. The small, "portable monitors" are perfect for this and pixel graphics also look better on them than on the huge monitors that are the standard to day. We live in good times for this stuff.
--
I thought about my selection further - Going with the 286 would mean no 32-bit protected mode stuff, as the 286 doesn't support this, so all stuff that needs DOS4GW is out. (to be fair though, games of that era are probably too heavy for a 286 anyways) The 386 was a change in quite a few ways so there's quite a bunch of stuff I wouldn't be surprised you'd find in things that don't use DOS4GW but would make a 286 crash anyways. A 386DX would be the safer bet here as everything DOS-era will run on an 386DX, just maybe not at a good speed. That kinda makes the 386 more "boring" as it's basically no different from the MediaGX in any way, just slower. The very early games also usually exist for the Amiga and are usually much better there. If you really spend some time with it you realize how kinda shitty the early PC as a game platform was compared to other offerings. It really only got it's place with 486 processing power and SVGA.
I also googled some parts online and am absolutely shocked at the eBay prices for old PC stuff. Also really surprised that people do things like making new sound cards. Even the benchmark bar mania seems to have gripped the retro PC, guess the consoomers waddled away from the C64/Amiga and found that market finally. It might make me actually part with some of the stuff before the bubble bursts. It's not like I'm ever gonna need it anyways.
EDIT: On the other hand, I'm quite surprised how the prices dropped of on the Amiga side of things. You can get some pretty cool, new hardware for pretty reasonable prices. Very different from the situation about ten years ago.
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SilentDuck
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2022
I grew up with a pair of 286 machines before getting throwaway 386s and finally a Pentium so I'm partial to the platform and DOS v3/v4. CGA and its documented/undocumented capabilities have mega autists discovering game obscurities and modes that support it unofficially. Honestly there's really not much else left to dig for and it's in style now as well as the CGA a e s t h e t i c.
Projects like eXo showcases something like 7000 DOS games, edutainment, and manuals/books/magazines from the era with every dosbox setting you need to emulate each one. More I fool around with, more I just go back to simple 286 games and usual classics + roguelikes. The nostalgia hit is going to be better than playing the game though... but MT-32 soundtracks/music still hits differently than everything else. I purged a lot of my hardware on eBay to stop the intrusive thoughts of needing to build system 'x' because of 'x'.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2018
Never heard of it, thanks!
I personally was an Amiga snob until the early 90s when it became clear that Commodore had no interest in not making retarded decisions. Yes, there's something about the machines from the 80s that later machines don't really have and emulation is always going to be a lot easier, especially now when even absolute potatoes can emulate even non-x86 platforms really well. I don't know though, I like tinkering around with this old stuff. It helps when you don't have to spend thousands of bucks to aquire it. I also like to look at applications and other less-known software of the time and often find a lot of it would still be quite useful nowadays, or at least not really much worse than modern counterparts. And that's just kinda sad, really.
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I hope nobody minds me using this thread as a personal journal as I'm digging through my hardware in the last few days and have some thunks - I have a lot of Amiga stuff too. The Amiga has expansion cards that let you basically add an 8088 or 286 to the Amiga 500, for example. I own both of the linked ones. The 8088 (V30, so XT Turbo) goes into the trapdoor slot of the A500 and doubles as RTC&RAM expansion when not in use. That one works well and turns the Amiga into a speedy XT machine with max. pseudo-VGA (psuedo as OCS chipset amigas can't really do VGA) graphics. The 286 works considerably less well and is slow and kinda buggy. Interesting about the 8088 expansion is that it gets a nice speed boost if the Amiga has an accelerator. Remember, this was a time where you could literally not transfer data from an Amiga system to a PC in a direct way, and that was the usage scenario for these.
I also have a heap of Amiga accelerators. Not counting the Pi accelerators since they're really something else, modern 68k-architecture based accelerators you now can buy for about a 100-300 bucks apparently probably beat them severely while being a lot more energy efficent and probably generally working a lot better. Implenting these wasn't that easy with 80s and 90s tech for the small engineering outfits and their limited resources and a lot of them are a bit "moody" as a result. I spent today going through that stuff and reading up what new stuff exists. I also have an A600, some A2000s and A1200s and plethora of expansions for them, thing is about the 2000 though that it's kinda power hungry and the A1200 I really never cared much about, AGA was and is kinda pointless - after being the owner of an A2000 for a few years I bought an A1200 in the early 90s and a weekend with it made me decide to buy an 486.
I always wanted to buy this case, maybe doing so and sticking a moderately expanded A500 with an XT board into it would give me good coverage for old stuff, as sort of a third way? On the other hand, an A1200 with Blizzard IV 1230 might maybe be more capable for playing around with Workbench. (Not necessarily with WHDLoad, which in my experience just often doesn't work well)
SilentDuck
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2022
Amiga vs. PC was legit fighting words way back when I don't even know why.
There's plenty to explore in the retro amiga space and most importantly new devices, new cases, new etc. and great community interest. PC is in my estimation pretty stale by comparison and has had its run. Could just be me though. I find myself also oogling the oddball applications, DOS managers and DOS oddities more than anything. Pretty good amount of source code dumped onto USENET and preserved on archive.org and there's nothing like reading 30 year old arcane sperging that is unbelievably polite.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2018
In my corner of the world it was Amiga vs. Atari. In the 80s, you might've seen a PC somewhere at work or in an office, and Macs basically didn't exist. Who would've known that we all lose.
Exactly, a lot of that stuff is genuinely useful or at least has interesting ideas, even if they didn't pan out. For the Amiga for example I have a 24 bit color framebuffer card that came with a paint-like program. It had a palette in the middle of the toolbar where you could put colors and mix them by dragging the mouse around to get new colors, like on a painter's palette. I found that quite clever.
--
"Hey buddy.. do you like serial ports?"
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2023
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2015
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2018
They'd basically just share one. You can see the DIP switch for IRQ under the UARTs. Via interrupt latch you could tell which one(s) did. (see INT VEC dip switch, it was an offset of that, a byte for one bit per channel) You could even have several cards of these and they'd share one interrupt, you'd daisy chain them with a wire. (see the jumper header in the upper left corner) It was fast enough. The fancier ones would have a cpu onboard (e.g. Z80 or 6502) You'd want at least a 486 for this. (edited the above to include less nonsense)
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SilentDuck
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2022
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2015
I do enjoy the aesthetics and brutal utilitarianism of particular dinosaurs like these...
SilentDuck
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2022
It was a bit deflating when I realized all these systems, no matter where they came or who made them are just some member of the Z80, 6502, 808x or 68k family processors.
But hats off to the brits for doing the iron ball and chain dark satanic mill type look and Czech full space-race brutalist.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2018
I adore the utterly impractical keyboards with nontheless good looking keycaps on many of those. Keycaps somehow just got shittier and shittier from then on. It wasn't until the mech keyboard craze that you could buy decent looking keycaps that wouldn't dissolve on skin contact again.
They weren't that easy to design with the tech and the budget these companies usually had and also were meant to be cheap computers. I think a 8 Mhz rated 68k (fastest CPU in that list) from your electronics supplier of choice costed about $40 in the late 80s? (I'm aiming high here, honestly, it was probably a lot cheaper - it was a design of the late 70s after all) It was never considered high-end or state of the art at the time. It was usually the chipset around them, the complete package, giving them their capabilities anyways. "Normies" of the time saw the "home computer craze" as a fad and a bubble, only few expected it to last. (emotions were running high similarily to how people are strongly opinionated about AI these days, the fears of being replaced by a computer were quite similar I think) The detractor's argument was "nobody needs a computer for anything at home, they are a useless tech gadget", and they weren't even wrong. It was a small niche industry and technological capabilities and infrastructure to actually create this stuff en masse wasn't really there. It wasn't ran by companies like now for which money is basically a meaningless concept at this point. It was really only in the 90s where there was a wider market for the home user and that market needed standards to be profitable, not exotic niche systems. Many companies still didn't survive that decade anyways.
It's kinda funny how some of these systems from that time are highly looked after machines. Especially the Amigas were often piss-poor put together and mostly meant to be as cheap as possible. (the cheaper Amigas didn't even have a clock or an UART, yes - the serial port on the Amiga is polled and fully CPU bound, I mean what the fuck) The old chipset Amiga would've been a *much* better machine with 2 MB of CPU-exclusive RAM and an 14 Mhz 68k, to give the CPU an extra cycle to "think" over the chipset. We'd stay in 16 bit territory even. Nope. That would've blown the budget. Especially the extra RAM would've been too expensive, as hard as that is to believe now.
Now such is cheap, even if made at tiny scale. (If you ever go down the road of Amiga expansions, take it from someone who had used anything up to 060 - don't go faster than about this. This is the perfect sweet spot of what Amiga software in the late 80s should've had for "serious usage". Anything past that is a waste of money and overkill. Also if you look at the benchmark screenshot on that website and wonder why the A1200s 32-bit EC020 14 Mhz CPU is so slow even compared to the stock 7 Mhz 68k of the older model, that is because these chucklefucks didn't give it any dedicated, locally bound RAM to work with and yes I'm still salty about that 32 years later)
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- Joined
- Nov 15, 2021
Because Amiga was for gay retards and PC was for cool sex-havers.
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2022
Holy shit, how have I never heard of this before? The D&D Gold Box "Companion" alone sounds like a weekend rabbit hole to me. Thanks for mentioning this project. I love you long time, sir.