anyone here into retro computing

[Kosher Dill]

Does anyone actually have a good plan how to display old DOS era resolutions on modern screens in ways that don't suck?

Why exactly is this coming up? I just use a CRT or an old 4:3 LCD monitor when I'm not just running in a VM window. My modern screens don't even have VGA inputs anyway.

 

[Dan D. Mann]

I have a couple of retro computers. One is an Olivetti M19 from 1986, it's very compact for being a desktop sized computer of the '80s.

It's an XT clone, 8088 chip with 640 kb of RAM. It runs MS-DOS 3.30.

I also own a electro-mechanical calculator, which is another Olivetti, model Logos 58, from 1973.

It's very stylish, it has a wedge shape. Although it's quite heavy since it's all made of steel.

 

[AmpleApricots]

Why exactly is this coming up? I just use a CRT or an old 4:3 LCD monitor when I'm not just running in a VM window. My modern screens don't even have VGA inputs anyway.

Many manufacturers have a "business line" of LCD screens. Not only come they often in grey/beige which is a personal favorite, but usually they have such legacy stuff like VGA ports and *usually* also handle things like old DOS text mode well, again for legacy purposes is my guess. With "well" I sadly don't mean pixel perfect but rather won't just display "out of range". You can buy such screens new or very cheaply used because they're not exactly gamer screens and don't have massively high resolutions. I recently picked up a three year old, barely used 1920x1200 screen for 60 bucks and it has the entire range from DisplayPort to VGA. Sadly it interprets DOS modes as widescreen, as I mentioned.

I don't really want to use CRTs anymore. They often have a slew of aging-related issues, take up a lot of space and also the power consumption is horrendous, which is a factor for me. Same to a lesser degree goes for old TN panels with CCFL backlighting and in those resolutions around that time they were pretty garbage and the reason CRTs stayed popular that long. I also want to optimally have a screen I can also use with my modern PC if I don't use it for the old computers. I don't really care about perfectly smooth scrolling or reaction times or such. I only am interested in slow stuff and sharp image reproduction and good colors are more important for me, that's why I'd want to use a modern IPS panel. I mean my solution works, I just am curious if there's maybe a better one besides using old screens.

I have a couple of retro computers.

A cheap and popular upgrade path for many of the old 8088 based systems was a NEC V20 CPU, compatible and at the same clock quite a few percent faster with some instructions. When these things still costed thousands it sometimes was worth it. These early PCs were interesting, because manufacturers still tried weird things and standards weren't as absolute yet, e.g. with additional CGA/EGA modes and such. As CGA and EGA is digital and not fast, I always wondered if you couldn't use a Pi or sth. to interpret the signals. Somebody probably already whipped something up.

 

[Pissmaster]

You clearly use Windows and have never actually done any programming whatsoever. If you want to run any code you pretty much have to use the CLI.

Command line operations are fine until you try to run some obscure hacky game that needs some retard's dodgy software with shit-poor documentation. I guess that's not much of a problem for most people, though that did sow a seed in my head to roll my eyes when I find software I need, only to discover that it's CLI-only.

Also, Windows really needs an "Open in cmd" button in the context menu. That could have saved me loads of confusion years ago when I'd run something and just get a flash of the command prompt putting up a "you didn't type any arguments faggot" message and instantly closing itself.

 

[Kosher Dill]

Many manufacturers have a "business line" of LCD screens. Not only come they often in grey/beige which is a personal favorite, but usually they have such legacy stuff like VGA ports

Any good recommendations for these?
I'm hanging onto a couple of Samsung Syncmaster 204B's but one of them's dying. Would be nice to replace it with something that's not equally old.

 

[Jazz never died!]

Not in the collecting of old computers but i find old software and operating systems interesting and the charm lost as well as their functionality with the popularity of 64 bit operating systems. LGR and Michael Mjd are good youtubers who are into this sort of thing.

 

[totallyrandomusername]

I also have a 1992 IBM Model M with the detachable SDL cable that I lovingly restored. No better keyboard was ever made. Actuation exactly at the moment of spring buckling. Not to mention, you could easily kill someone if you hit them in the head with it. Sucker weighs about 6 lbs.

68k Macs are another group of retro computers I enjoy. I have a platinum Mac Plus with 4 MB of RAM. Mac Classic II with 10 MB of RAM [yes, yes, I know "Mac Classics suck!", the Mac Classic has sentimental value to me, that's why I love it].

Probably the best one in my 68k group, a Powerbook 540c, 36 MB of RAM, Rev C PCMCIA card cage, with a Wi-Fi PCMCIA card with external antenna (can only do 802.11b). Did well on the internet, until everyone switched to HTTPS. Old machines just can't handle the crypto without a support machine to help. I just hate how brittle the plastics are, cheap fuckers trying to cut costs.

 

[AmpleApricots]

Any good recommendations for these?
I'm hanging onto a couple of Samsung Syncmaster 204B's but one of them's dying. Would be nice to replace it with something that's not equally old.

Mostly, buy them used. e.g. a 19" 1280x1024 by eizo for example can easily cost 300 bucks new, if you can even find a seller. They're usually not marketed to normal consumers at all (you can find info via googling though) and usually are sold in contracts. When a business then closes down or upgrades, they not rarely land on eBay where they're often basically gifted away because nobody knows or wants them, they're not excessively amazing screens but you can get them pretty cheap. As I said, these are not gamer monitors so you won't find anything over 60 Hz.

On the upside, their general build quality is normally superior to the consumer stuff. You usually get physical buttons (not that touch finger nonsense) proper casing with proper bezels that don't feel flimsy, good backlighting without unevenness or excessive bleeding, poor color calibration and other such quality problems and often small extras like an additional physical switch that actually cuts power, light/people sensors and inbuilt speakers. (which usually are bad) And the weirdo form factors like 5:4 and 16:10 which disappeared from the consumer market.

Japan-based Eizo is the Mercedes amongst these brands, then comes Dell, Asus, Fujitsu-Siemens and the like. Avoid chinese Eyoyo, pure garbage. Features can vary a bit, from what I seen it's usually Asus that has the most Consumer-friendly stuff in their business lineup like additional color modes for movie watching if you care about these things. Buy something with an LED backlight and then how used they are doesn't really matter as that backlight will probably outlive you. Pretty much check eBay for your wish resolution, and then google how old the offered screens are and what their features are. I'd not buy anything with CCFL backlight as used screens are probably half dead already. You'll probably not find 1600x1200 in a new screen as such panels are not made anymore but 1920x1200 and 1280x1024 should be plentiful for less than hundred or sometimes even less than fifty dollars.

If you are really attached to an old CCFL monitor that's half dead, you could attempt "upgrading" it to an LED backlight. There are tutorials and kits. It's not for the novice though and soldering is required.

68k Macs are another group of retro computers I enjoy.

I've never had any contact with them in the 90s but bought some 040 based Mac out of curiosity just a few years ago and fell in love. It's a very well thought out machine and the OS is comfy. Software selection is a bit meh though.

 

[totallyrandomusername]

I wish I had a good suggestion for what to do for a monitor, but the era of getting large, old CRT's that still work well, for free, is long gone. I was able to get a Sony GDM-500PS 21" CRT for free years ago. It has a VGA input as well as BNC RGBHV.

 

[Kosher Dill]

Japan-based Eizo is the Mercedes amongst these brands

Actually, looking at some of these, it seems some of their widescreen models can automatically letterbox different aspect ratios, or display "smaller" resolutions unscaled and centered. Isn't that just the sort of thing you're looking for?

I'm very much tempted to pick up an Eizo for myself now, this would be very useful indeed.

 

[AmpleApricots]

Actually, looking at some of these, it seems some of their widescreen models can automatically letterbox different aspect ratios, or display "smaller" resolutions unscaled and centered. Isn't that just the sort of thing you're looking for?

I'm very much tempted to pick up an Eizo for myself now, this would be very useful indeed.

Yeah about that: The screen I have has in it's manual that it supports a 1:1 resolution setting. It doesn't. It also has a 4:3 aspect setting but that only works in VESA modes, 640x480 and up. My guess is only a tiny amount of customers actually care about this so the manufacturers probably don't care a lot about supporting these DOS resolutions. It's probably more about generally supporting it, not necessarily making it look "authentic".

16:10 is technically not wrong for the DOS resolutions and "aspect correct" actually, it's just that's not how they were displayed on 4:3 CRTs back then and games had their graphics made with that in mind. This funnily is a thing many get wrong/start to forget and "classic" games that are sold via GoG and such and use dosbox or youtubers that stream old games are often set up with this wrong-right aspect ratio which makes everything look a little squished and too wide horizontally. On a CRT screen, a pixel doesn't have to be square and doesn't need to have a defined size. The CRT will just display whatever. It's not bound to these limitations.

Then there's also the problem that I have so far not seen a LCD monitor that doesn't do bilinear scaling, even if the input resolution would be an exact integer multiple of it's native resolution. This makes things blurrier than they need to be.

That all said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Eizo screen does it correctly and lets you squish 720x400 in a 4:3 aspect, it'll probably still do bilinar scaling though but that doesn't necessarily have to look that bad. Sadly it's a bit luck of the draw and there are no Eizos currently available in my country for a price I'd be willing to pay. I think I'm going to stick with my solution for now, it's also has the advantage that it's screen-agnostic. I did a bit of research and the OSSC Pro might be the answer to my prayers when it comes out, because it will be able to do what the framemeister does in my chain right now.

 

[Dan D. Mann]

A cheap and popular upgrade path for many of the old 8088 based systems was a NEC V20 CPU, compatible and at the same clock quite a few percent faster with some instructions. When these things still costed thousands it sometimes was worth it. These early PCs were interesting, because manufacturers still tried weird things and standards weren't as absolute yet, e.g. with additional CGA/EGA modes and such. As CGA and EGA is digital and not fast, I always wondered if you couldn't use a Pi or sth. to interpret the signals. Somebody probably already whipped something up.

@AmpleApricots

Sorry for the knockoff quote. But yeah, I might upgrade it to a NEC CPU if I can find one that's not ridiculously expensive. Though the first thing to do on that PC is to either install one of those ISA CF card adapter thing since that PC doesn't come with a hard drive, and then I would add an ethernet or modem card so I can browse some good ol' BBS on there.

About the monitor, this thing is so compact that the monitor actually provides the power for the computer itself, ala IBM PS/1. Olivetti sold color monitors for it, but it required a weird expansion box that could be attached on the side of the case through a proprietary graphics/power slot (hidden by a piece of plastic). Then, instead of using the motherboard connector you would use the one from the expansion box.

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about:

Thing is, the bare bones computer itself is very rare to find nowadays, let alone the expansion box and a compatible color monitor. Plus, it kinda defeats the compactness of the computer itself, which I really like.

 

[totallyrandomusername]

V20's are actually worth something now? Damn. Wish I'd held onto the ones I had. Accumulated a couple dozen from scrapped systems that were beyond saving. I chucked them about 5 years ago because I never found a use for them.

 

[OpenBASED]

I run a Pentium II system from April '98 running Windows 95 for vintage computer gaming.
I use it to play games mostly from 1993-98 and often with 3Dfx Glide acceleration.

Spoiler: Specs, in case anyone actually wants to know.

CPU: Pentium II 333Mhz (Can't get any higher due to chipset limitations)
RAM: 128MB PC-133
HDD: 30GB IDE from Quantum
Graphics: Cirrus Laguna3DA + Diamond Monster 3D II Voodoo 2 SLI Configuration
Sound: ESS AudioDrive 1868F
OS: Windows 95 OSR 2.1
Ethernet NIC: Realtek RTL8139 100Mbit

Nothing else is really noteworthy IMO.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

One annoying thing about retro-computing (and old electronics in general) is shitty power connections.

It can get so bad that one has to hold the adapter plug in place for the thing to work.

 

[AmpleApricots]

Sorry for the knockoff quote. But yeah, I might upgrade it to a NEC CPU if I can find one that's not ridiculously expensive. Though the first thing to do on that PC is to either install one of those ISA CF card adapter thing since that PC doesn't come with a hard drive, and then I would add an ethernet or modem card so I can browse some good ol' BBS on there.

Well, that was good advice in the 80s when that was the fastest computer you had but nowadays I'm actually not entirely sure if I'd bother. See it that way - these few percent won't bring you anything a faster old computer wouldn't do much better. It's the same with FPUs back then when they were optional, dedicated chips - the few kinds of software that actually benefit from then will still run like ass in these systems because the latency was terrible and these FPUs were seriously slow. You had to pretty much run some very specific calculations where all the added complexity would still be worth the speedup, still everyone just chugs FPUs into these old computers like they somehow wouldn't work without them. The FPU started to get interesting when it wasn't that much of an optional part anymore around the 486 generation for PCs (don't even get me into intel basically selling an empty chip as FPU, that's one of these examples I like to bring up what shits they always were) and there was less latency and software actually started implementing code benefiting, but an FPU in e.g. 8088 in 2021 if you aren't an 80s scientist, architect or engineer, is as useful as tits on a bike. Pretty much the same for the V20 if you don't have very specific software in mind.

I recently started writing code for an much older arithmetic chip (AMD AM9511 from the late 70s, still needs both a +5V and a +12V supply, it's a NMOS device and gets fucking hot) as peripheral for an Z80 and later also maybe 6502 and while even with the inherent latency of two chips talking to each other it absolutely flies in specific calculations compared to the Z80. Still it's never gonna be realistically useful for me because even that tiny chip in my optical mouse is more powerful and I basically just do it for fun. So if it's all too expensive or would mean you'd have to somehow do modifications to that well-kept machine, I'd just forget about it and enjoy what you have.

modem card so I can browse some good ol' BBS on there.

Not sure about the modem card and how you'd even hook that up to anything as basically all telephony is now routed digitally (even if you somehow managed to still have an analog landline/use some converter) and whatever compression they do on there makes bona fide modems work at abysmal speeds/not at all. Analog telephony is completely dead, you might still connect to an analog landline somewhere somehow but upstream it'll all eventually end up in the digital world. Kinda sad in a way. There are modern solutions to have a modern computer emulate a Hayes compatible modem via an USB/Serial converter so you can use the old terminal programs to connect to things on the internet via telnet/ssh even IIRC. There's also some all in one solution with the ESP8266 if you want a more dedicated, wifi based modem solution.

One annoying thing about retro-computing (and old electronics in general) is shitty power connections.

The problem there is often actually different metal alloys in the connector and plug reacting over the years with each other, forming electrical more resistant layers on both sides, upping the electrical resistance which often crashes the voltage while excess energy get turned into heat at the connector. I've seen such things melt connectors in worst case scenarios because you can end up in a vicious circle where you end up with sparking upping the resistance at the gap further. Cleaning off the contacts slightly with sanding paper or (better) an optic fiber pen does absolute wonders.

 

[Pee Cola]

This is absolutely fucking nuts. Next time I'm about ready to give up on repairing an old machine, I'll re-watch these videos.

Protip: If you can't sit through over two hours of cleaning and repairing by a dude that sounds like English Grover, here's a tl;dw.

As CGA and EGA is digital and not fast, I always wondered if you couldn't use a Pi or sth. to interpret the signals. Somebody probably already whipped something up.

You're thinking of the RGB2HDMI. You can either get a store-bought one or make your own.

One annoying thing about retro-computing (and old electronics in general) is shitty power connections.

It can get so bad that one has to hold the adapter plug in place for the thing to work.

If it's a standard barrel jack or some sort of DIN connector, they're cheap and easy to replace. That said, the socket itself might be fine but the solder joints may have fractured over years of being moved around ever so slightly through repeated insertions and removals of connectors.

Having said all this, I'd be inclined to try cleaning the contacts first as per @AmpleApricots' suggestion. Maybe try something like DeOxit for the socket or any other place where it's difficult to get close enough to use a fibreglass pen, sandpaper, emery board etc.

Irrespective of whether or not the connector is working properly, in some cases it's probably wise to buy a new power supply anyway. Commodore power supplies (especially the wedge style and beige bricks) are notorious for going bad and sending too much voltage down the 5V rail of C64s and VIC20s. Sinclair power supplies are also dogshit.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

The problem there is often actually different metal alloys in the connector and plug reacting over the years with each other[...]

I think in my case - an adapter to a Game Boy Pocket - it's a loose connection, as I only recently got the thing and didn't use the adapter with it much. The plug can still be moved around when it's inserted in the power in socket. Which sucks because I can't really play any games on the thing as the power can cut at any moment, unless I want to use batteries.

 

[Pee Cola]

I think in my case - an adapter to a Game Boy Pocket - it's a loose connection, as I only recently got the thing and didn't use the adapter with it much. The plug can still be moved around when it's inserted in the power in socket. Which sucks because I can't really play any games on the thing as the power can cut at any moment, unless I want to use batteries.

Does the whole socket move when inserted, or does the connector just feel loose inside the socket? If it's the former, try reflowing the solder joints between the socket and the board. If it's the latter, try replacing the socket. They're cheap.

Given that it's a through-hole component that's well away from the sensitive stuff on the GBP's board, it should be an easy fix even if you're a soldering noob.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

Does the whole socket move when inserted, or does the connector just feel loose inside the socket?

It's the latter. Move the cable around enough and the power can be interrupted, resetting the system.

Even just sitting in place can do that, as gravity or slight movement can move the cable enough.

(thanks for the info BTW)