Are we being indoctrinated that revenge is bad?

[Patrick Bait-man]

Revenge is good and Paul Allen deserved it.

 

[Strix454]

So getting to the point, is the idea that revenge being bad is being forced on us for a reason?

The idea of revenge bad goes all the way back to at least the Oresteia by Aeschylus if not to the history of the Trojan War by Homer itself. The critique of revenge is usually around the "cycle of revenge" and how a system strictly based on revenge does not really lead to socially useful outcomes or the best justice for the community as a whole.
Its somewhat accompanied by the idea that justice enforced by the community as a whole is preferable to personal revenge.
There is nothing new or modern to this issue and this debate. Its been going on in one form or another back to nearly the beginning of history.
The current (bad) debates center around the question of if the victim should have any role in the process of justice at all. There are certain people who attack things like victim impact statements in trial as being wrong and also advocate that what is best for "the community" in terms of "justice" may be totally different than what is best for the vicim.
Part of the current debate is also with regards to if "punishment" should be any part of justice.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Can beasts even enact revenge? I brought the case of Gary Plauché because it's one where there is nothing to criticize in it besides the cops putting him in prison afterwards, if anything a trial would have probably increased the trauma to the victim.

It doesn't matter whether what he did was morally justifiable though, the risk is when you let people start settling offenses extrajudicially it turns into chaos. Innocent people will be targeted and killed in an endless cycle of tit-for-tat violence.

One example of justifiable vengeance is offset by tons more unjustified. I think the resolution of Gary's case was the fairest outcome that preserved justice while preventing him from suffering harm for his actions. It would have been impossible to acquit him but they did the best they could under the law.

 

[macrodegenerate]

With the rise of atomization, it has begun to become obvious, that modern society as a whole is the actor responsible for the loss of the soul. Revenge at its most simple is about denying a person something of the same value of what they took from you. TPTB know that society is over when enough people start asking, "What is the price of a soul and my life?", and then come to collect the debt.

Edit:We are starting to see this behavior in the rise of late 20s/early 30 shooters. I'm genuinely worried what's going to happen to the U.S. in the next 10 years as this trend continues to accelerate.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

Yeah it's a glowie topic

Any call to action to genuinely do something worthwhile or think about something worthwhile is regarded as "glowie topics".

Quite possibly the best psyop since the meme of "conspiracy theorist".

 

[Odd Opossum]

Most people arguing about revenge are goofy, perpetually butthurt retards who would fail at their revenge attempts and get laughed at by everyone, even if they managed to kill someone. Aren't you Jewish @wtfNeedSignUp? I don't think you'd want people actually trying to "get even" considering how some countries feel about your race.

 

[Soup Sammiches]

I have a pretty simple philosophy on revenge, crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women. Pretty sure that's from either Jesus or Gandhi.

 

[Fleece Johnson]

It goes hand in hand with the push to demasculinize men.

A wussified male population who won't fight back or stand up for themselves will be easier for the TPTB to control.

 

[ITK]

Uhh I think revenge is a moral obligation in the case of rape. If someone rapes your sister or kid or something, and you know it's them, it's your duty to kill them, especially considering the state won't do it for you.

 

[Drkinferno72]

I slaughtered thousands of your mooks, but because revenge bad I won't kill the big bad who's legions of faceless mooks I killed.

One of which has a transman daughter named Abby who's gonna beat my head in with a golf club cause I didn't tie up the loose end

 

[Jewthulhu]

Can beasts even enact revenge?

Yes, apparently. Though my point was that in driving for revenge you are typically ignoring or suppressing behavioral/psychological attributes unique to humans (between-group empathy, perspective-taking, impulse-control, stoicism, etc.). Any beast can respond to an affront against oneself or one's immediate ingroup with another affront. Only a human can contextualize an affront, respond stoically, or work towards justice without seeking revenge.

 

[Ultrapenguin]

Yes, these messages are pushed for a good reason.

My general belief with all these concepts in media, is that if someone is so thoughtless or weak of conviction that they need the man on the TV to validate all their decisions, then it's a good idea to preach social conformity to them, because they're probably emotionally consumed individuals whose judgement can't be trusted.

Here that's especially true because community has all but dissolved, there's no overarching moral structure to any of it. It would amount to a whole collection of random angry tards all deciding that because their neighbor has loud parties on the weekend that interrupt their naps sometimes, you should burn their house down. Civil breakdown soon to follow.

Also, the fact is people who aren't retards already aren't very preoccupied with revenge, because it's an emotionally driven concept.
Unless there's some practical benefit to revisiting something, people with a head on their shoulders just learn a lesson going forward so it doesn't happen again and move on.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Yes, these messages are pushed for a good reason.

My general belief with all these concepts in media, is that if someone is so thoughtless or weak of conviction that they need the man on the TV to validate all their decisions, then it's a good idea to preach social conformity to them, because they're probably emotionally consumed individuals whose judgement can't be trusted.

Here that's especially true because community has all but dissolved, there's no overarching moral structure to any of it. It would amount to a whole collection of random angry tards all deciding that because their neighbor has loud parties on the weekend that interrupt their naps sometimes, you should burn their house down. Civil breakdown soon to follow.

Also, the fact is people who aren't retards already aren't very preoccupied with revenge, because it's an emotionally driven concept.
Unless there's some practical benefit to revisiting something, people with a head on their shoulders just learn a lesson going forward so it doesn't happen again and move on.

Your post reminded me of the dad who's daughter was raped and killed by an illegal immigrant who's reply to the situation is that he doesn't feel any hard feeling to the scumbag who did it and that he really like Mexican food.

 

[gang weeder]

Well it depends on who you are. White? Then yes revenge is bad, unless you're some variant of liberal white taking revenge against some variant of conservative white. Anyone else? Revenge is very good if it's aimed at whites, conservatives, etc. I mean how much media of Jewish revenge fantasies against the Nazis are there? They've based whole TV series on that shit IIRC.

 

[Exister]

I would say that a culture of revenge would lead to societal decay, but when the police are useless shitstains that don't do anything but hand out parking tickets I think revenge is your only option.

 

[Hyperbola]

Revenge is sometimes necessary: Why do you think you have that emotional drive in the first place?

In the iterated prisoner's dilemma, (not that game theory captures *everything* about real life interactions, but sometimes it gets at important dynamics): Unlike the single-shot dilemma two non-communicating prisoners *can* arrange to cooperate with each other. However, the strategy of always-cooperating get's stomped, for obvious reasons. (Always-defect also does poorly, but not as poorly as being a moral doormat.)

Tit-for-tat and grim-trigger and the like do better than all other decision-algorithms. They don't start shit, but they make it cost something to betray them.

If you do not make it cost something to betray you, other types that do not care about you will betray you. Ideally we deal with this through a justice system. However, if you have no way of making it cost something to politically betray you, then you can expect people without your hang-ups to 1. seize power, and 2. abuse you to the maximum extent of their abilities.

I agree that far too much social moral conditioning amounts to a form of domestication of slaves by a master-class.

(It may be a *dangerous* drive - one that you would do well to control. But even the most docile prey-animal will try to bite you if it can't escape.)

 

[HodgePodgeRogerDodger]

Revenge as a concept is basically justice, but perverted. Justice is typically based upon retribution, however over time people realized that’s a poor principle to base Justice entirely on.

Revenge becomes an issue when it becomes a blood feud or vendetta. Typically revenge killings are the norm in a lot of the world, but it always depends on for what? The Bible, Hammurabi’s Code, and a lot of Ancient Law/ Religious Texts detail fines and damages for murder/ accidental death or maiming.
Western Society really gives favor to the accused, very much in the US where intent and finding intent is most of the case. The issue comes in when society forces people to forgive (and later pay to keep them alive in prison.)

Fuck, I think life in prison is cruel. If a guy kills more than 3 people and went in with intent to kill or willfully endangered people like during a robbery than yeah, fuck ‘em. Shit like a Revenge Killing for shit like the Hi-Fi Killings, Junko Furata, Spree killer mass shooters, or serial rapists is a case where I can see it as actual Justice.

Revenge is bad, but people taking the law into their own hands is really flawed. I think it’s pussy shit to not fight for yourself. Forgiveness is for the ignorant, not the scared.

EDIT: Darrell Brooks should of just been executed after the trial. That dude is the ideal for a death penalty. Just an unrepentant asshole more worried about himself than those he wronged.

 

[Angry Alt Right Nerd]

No, revenge is bad, who are you to decide what justice is, who are you to decide what is right or wrong, you must be some kind of authoritarian egomaniac who thinks he's god, let the police and your government handle it, they're the experts.

 

[Manul Otocolobus]

Can beasts even enact revenge?

I can say it's at least true of cats. I've even seen it. Cat #1 was eating food from a plate. Cat #2 came along and decided he wanted the food, so he used his paw to slide the plate in front of him while looking at Cat #1 like "Looks good. Thanks". Cat #1 proceeded to reach one of his paws back and smack Cat #2 in the back of the head as hard as he absolutely could, causing Cat #2's face to smash right into the food on the plate. Cat #2 lifts his face up, now covered in cat food, glares at Cat #1, proceeds to flatten his ears against his head and jump at Cat #1, which leads to an all out cat fight between the two. Cat #1 emerges victorious and Cat #2 slinks away looking back at Cat #1 like "Asshole..." and Cat #1, looking quite happy with himself, proceeds to resume eating the food from the plate without further interruption.

 

[Town Drunk]

"You're stooping to their level!" is a phrase often associated with this that I've had a problem with.

It's hard for me to see it that way. (Justified) revenge is creating equality in a power imbalance. I'm not stooping to their level, I'm bringing myself up. It almost feels like a way to gaslight abuse victims into not fighting back.

Maybe I'm just edgy and bitter, but it's hard for me to demonize the concept of revenge when I know what goes on in the world and how bad the law is at handling these types of people.

Using guns is dishonorable. Using chemical weapons is dishonorable. Using snipers is dishonorable. Artillery, nukes, etc.

History is written by the winners, and the graveyards are full of people who were "the bigger man"