CN Australia to get nuclear-powered submarines, will scrap $90b program to build French-designed subs - A hole in the ocean you throw money into

link: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09...-biden-australia-nuclear-submarines/100465628

archive: http://archive.today/dvj6w

Australia to get nuclear-powered submarines, will scrap $90b program to build French-designed subs​

By defence correspondent Andrew Greene, political editor Andrew Probyn and foreign affairs reporter Stephen Dziedzic

Posted 1 hours ago, updated 41 minutes ago

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The controversial plan to build French-designed submarines in Australia will be scrapped. (Supplied: DCNS)

Australia's next submarine fleet will be nuclear-powered under an audacious plan that will see a controversial $90 billion program to build up to 12 French-designed submarines scrapped.

Key points:​

  • Joe Biden is expected to make an announcement at 7:00am AEST
  • The ABC understands the Prime Minister convened a National Security Committee of Cabinet yesterday
  • It's expected that there will be an increased presence of American nuclear subs in the region
The ABC understands Australia will use American and British technology to configure its next submarine fleet in a bid to replace its existing Collins class subs with a boat more suitable to the deteriorating strategic environment.

Australia, the United States and Britain are expected to jointly announce a new trilateral security partnership on Thursday, with a focus on aligning technology and regional challenges.

But Australia's embrace of nuclear-powered submarines will have its political and technological challenges, given there is no domestic nuclear industry.

The new three-nation security pact – called AUKUS – will be seen by China as a bid to counter its regional influence, especially in the contested South China Sea.

The nuclear submarines would likely be based in WA.

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In April 2016 Australia awarded French contractor DCNS the main contract to design and build its next generation of submarines to replace its current fleet of six Collins-class vessels. (Peter Parks/AFP/Getty)

In 2017, the Turnbull government announced French company Naval Group (then known as DCNS) had been selected for this country's largest-ever defence contract, to design and build "regionally superior" conventional submarines.

The ABC understands Prime Minister Scott Morrison convened a National Security Committee of Cabinet on Tuesday ahead of coordinated announcements in Washington and London.

Cabinet ministers were given special COVID exemptions to travel to Canberra for the top-secret discussions.

In a highly unusual step, the Prime Minister also invited Labor leader Anthony Albanese and three of his senior shadow ministers to be briefed on the plan.

American media reports say US President Joe Biden is scheduled to deliver "brief remarks about a national security initiative" on Wednesday afternoon in Washington local time.

A well-placed military source has told the ABC the Defence Department's general manager of submarines, Greg Sammut, has called an urgent "clear lower decks" meeting for tomorrow morning to discuss the dramatic development.

Another senior official said "top secret" briefings have been arranged at the Defence Department on Thursday.

Inside military circles there is also speculation that the transition to a new nuclear submarine program could initially be overseen by Retired US Vice Admiral William Hilarides, who chairs the federal government's Naval Shipbuilding Expert Advisory Panel.

Government sources say Mr Morrison tried unsuccessfully to line up a phone call with French President Emmanuel Macron on Wednesday, but it has now been instead scheduled for Thursday.

The ABC has been told that news of Australia's decision was instead delivered to Paris by the secretary of the Defence Department Greg Moriarty.
Allied naval presence is expected to increase north of Australia — including in the contested South China Sea — as part of a coordinated tri-continental push against Beijing territorial aggression.

Australia, the United States and Britain are expected to reorient their submarine and warship fleets to counter China's increasing regional presence.

Regional diplomatic missions across Canberra are expecting to be briefed on the announcement on Thursday afternoon.


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A brief history on the Attack-class subs:

- DCNS won the contract, their design was to convert their nuclear submarine design 'Barracuda' to diesel-electric
- The Australian Government spent AUD 90+ Billion since 2017 (4 years) and none of the subs have even started construction
- Hold-ups were caused by disputes between the Australian contractors and shipyards building it and DCNS, and issues with the Dept Defence and DCNS
- Now the government wants to scrap the program and build nuclear subs. We still ship our nuclear waste to France, so they haven't completely lost out.

In short, we wasted 90 Billion when we could have just gone with the original nuclear sub's design and tweaked it.

Weirdly enough, the article was already archived right as it was published.​
 
Nuclear powered Subs are only good if they are armed with nukes.
Not really. Nuclear powered attack subs do make sense for countries that either
a) Need to protect their nuclear powered boomers
b) Need to hunt someone elses nuclear powered boomers
c) Need the long range high speed under water cruising capability of nuclear powered subs.

I do agree that Australia doesn't meet any of these criteria and so probably shouldn't be going nuclear, but that doesn't mean noone should.
 
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Brillitant idea to replace useless subs with other useless subs...

Nuclear powered Subs are only good if they are armed with nukes.

They had 3 good Subs in their original competition. all 3 are superior to what they bought now and could have already been delivered.
Look! A German with a strong opinion about how to build a competent blue water navy. Everyone point and laugh.
 
Look! A German with a strong opinion about how to build a competent blue water navy.
Well Green water Navy in this case, there isnt much open water between china and Australia, going around to the indian ocean is impossible and the pacific is also very problematic for China. Most fighting would be done in Indonesian waters.
 
Well Green water Navy in this case, there isnt much open water between china and Australia, going around to the indian ocean is impossible and the pacific is also very problematic for China. Most fighting would be done in Indonesian waters.
They also want an improvement over the Collins-class. A short-legged coastal sub ain't it. Big area to cover with not many friends. Need speed, endurance, and operational flexibility. Not some hole-in-the-water manned seamine that would be late to every PLAN party.
 
They also want an improvement over the Collins-class. A short-legged coastal sub ain't it.
Well thats a very old and bad design, modern conventional subs have enough range for australia. they also dont get detected all the time like nuclear subs.
 
How did they manage to cock up some technology which has been around since WW1, which was being augmented by another technology which has been around since the 1960s?
Brillitant idea to replace useless subs with other useless subs...

Nuclear powered Subs are only good if they are armed with nukes.

They had 3 good Subs in their original competition. all 3 are superior to what they bought now and could have already been delivered.
Attack subs could be pretty useful if done right, but no country is really working on them in the right direction. The smart way to work on them would be to take the Type VIIC and basically try to just design what one would think would have been the natural progression from that design into modern times, by fixing the problems the Type VIIC had. Additionally, I think an anti-air sub could be extremely helpful, both by acting as support for wolfpack formations and by acting independently against oversea air transportation routes.
 
It's a bit of a dog move on our part, since we made them modify a nuclear design to diesel-electric, only to then scrap the entire thing. No-doubt they'd be asking 'why don't they just go with the original design'.

It'd be cheaper for a government willing to sink billions into the questionable F-35, and several billion into Boxers that have turrets too heavy for their chassis as well as only capable of firing artisan German-made ammunition and tyres. At least in this scenario we've already got a nuclear design that met our requirements.

The question of whether we're just buying American for political kudos should always be asked, considering that was one of the major reasons the public was told we bought into the F-35 in the first place, straight from the pollies.

edit: Wonder if these subs are even going to be built in Australia, no mention of them being built down under in any of these press releases.
 
How did they manage to cock up some technology which has been around since WW1, which was being augmented by another technology which has been around since the 1960s?

Attack subs could be pretty useful if done right, but no country is really working on them in the right direction. The smart way to work on them would be to take the Type VIIC and basically try to just design what one would think would have been the natural progression from that design into modern times, by fixing the problems the Type VIIC had. Additionally, I think an anti-air sub could be extremely helpful, both by acting as support for wolfpack formations and by acting independently against oversea air transportation routes.
I think Russia has a couple Whiskeys in a museum if you really wanna try a "modernized Type VII". Taiwan has that GUPPY conversion Balao-class still in service too. Good luck.
edit: Wonder if these subs are even going to be built in Australia, no mention of them being built down under in any of these press releases.
Unlikely. The US isn't going to share their special reactor recipes with anyone. Good news is Virginias are built really cheaply and quickly (for SSNs) and Electric Boat is going to be able to crank them out for pennies compared to the incompetent shady AUS builders. You guys didn't learn your lesson from the clusterfuck acquiring the Collins-class.
 
edit: Wonder if these subs are even going to be built in Australia, no mention of them being built down under in any of these press releases.
I was just watching Morrison's press conference. I don't think they've worked that out yet. They don't know which type of submarine they're going to order or how much the program will cost!

We're now entering into an 18-month consultation process to work out all the finer details!
 
I was just watching Morrison's press conference. I don't think they've worked that out yet. They don't know which type of submarine they're going to order or how much the program will cost!

We're now entering into an 18-month consultation process to work out all the finer details!
How will we manage to spend several million on "consultations" with lobbyists this time?
 
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Why would they want to? NZ isn't between them and any potential deployment zone. It's not far enough away from Aus itself that it'd be a useful forward deployment base and most importantly since NZ doesn't have a fucking navy it wouldn't have any facilities the Aussies could use anyway.

Frogs mad.
Cope seethe and dilate frogs.

It's a bit of a dog move on our part, since we made them modify a nuclear design to diesel-electric, only to then scrap the entire thing.
I mean you didn't really make them do shit, they volunteered the design since they wanted in on the conventional sub game (since nuclear boat building is esserntially a dead-end market. If they didn't want people cancelling on them they shouldn't have made it such a fucking shitshow tbh

edit: Wonder if these subs are even going to be built in Australia, no mention of them being built down under in any of these press releases.
According to this report they will be, but I haven't seen Morrison's full statement myself so no idea if they're accurate:


Morrison said the submarines would be built in Adelaide in South Australia state, in close cooperation with the United States and Britain.
 
So how would this compare to China's submarines in the "which government has the coolest toys" dick measuring contest?

I somehow doubt China would attack Australia when so many powerful politicians send their children to Australian schools and most powerful people are probably planning on jumping ship to Kangaroo Land as soon as their last bribe check clears.
 
So Biden's basically just deciding on giving China better nuke sub tech at this point

I mean, Aussieland is so infiltrated and cucked to the Chinamen that any top sekret plans that end up there will be on Winnie the Pooh's desk within the hour.

Good Call Biden!
 
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So how would this compare to China's submarines in the "which government has the coolest toys" dick measuring contest?
A lot if it depends on what the final design is (buying a basically off the shelf US/UK design vs designing their own with consultation etc), but generally they should shit on the chink navy in terms of quality, even if they'll never match their quantity.
One of the biggest advantages the West has when it comes to this is they have the benefit of literally decades of institutional experience designing and running these boats and formulating doctrine through both major exercises and actual operational experience (something which the Chinks can't, and likely never will match).
 
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So Biden's basically just deciding on giving China better nuke sub tech at this point

I mean, Aussieland is so infiltrated and cucked to the Chinamen that any top sekret plans that end up there will be on Winnie the Pooh's desk within the hour.

Good Call Biden!
Tbf, why bother with any of that when they can just call up Milley and ask him for them? They just need to tell him they need the plans otherwise Orange Man will win and he'll send them right over.
 
Wouldn't be the first time either, IIRC Australia bought a bunch of Yurocopters that ended up being a massive headache and is just going to replace them with Apaches instead.

Funny thing; the Brits home-built some Apaches that didn't do so well, so they're scrapping those and ordering the US built ones instead.

They did. In fact it was such a shitshow that they were looking at replacing them before they'd even reached full operational capability:

They've gone all in on US land support gear, it seems. Apaches, going with Abrams tanks, etc.

How the fuck are they going to stop them? They're Virginia class nuke boats, they could sneak into a major port and surface right at quayside before the New Zealanders could stop them. I mean, what are they going to do, have an angry haka on the dock and yell "ooga ooga" at the sub?
 
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