Avatar: The Last Airbender / The Legend of Korra

[Big Green]

After Korra I genuinely cannot believe they doubled down on the whole "Non-benders are totally a oppressed minority" idea. It's not fun. It's not interesting. It's just the most basic of ideas that only makes it out of the writing room because everything has to be viewed through the lens of social justice. It's not even consistent with the original series. Benders are rare and mystical. They aren't a cohesive group capable of holding any sort of systematic power. It's not even shown that non-bending bloodlines are a thing. As far as we know its just rng and families are mixed between mostly non-benders and benders. And even besides, it's very clearly illustrated that non-benders are more than capable combatants that can go up against benders.

 

[The Incredible Gassy]

After Korra I genuinely cannot believe they doubled down on the whole "Non-benders are totally a oppressed minority" idea. It's not fun. It's not interesting. It's just the most basic of ideas that only makes it out of the writing room because everything has to be viewed through the lens of social justice. It's not even consistent with the original series. Benders are rare and mystical. They aren't a cohesive group capable of holding any sort of systematic power. It's not even shown that non-bending bloodlines are a thing. As far as we know its just rng and families are mixed between mostly non-benders and benders. And even besides, it's very clearly illustrated that non-benders are more than capable combatants that can go up against benders.

Chi-blockers dog-walk benders multiple times in both TLA and Korra. Its even dumber in Korra since they have actual mechs and this fuck-ass shock gauntlets that can one-tap basically anyone.

 

[cactus]

To be a little bit more fair to Nickelodeon, I don't think this was fully the case. I brought up not too long ago in another thread about Nickelodeon actually did have many attempts in trying to diversify their content and pursue more action-oriented children's cartoons. They even attempted years before Avatar to do an anime-esque action cartoon.

I'll say what said then: Nickelodeon probably always did want to do programming geared towards older audiences. However, experiences like Avatar and of course Invader Zim made them realize that they investment may not have been worth it given the returns they received. Nick did have a formula that worked for them: easy to produce comedies that they can milk with ease. Times of course changed and Nick unfortunately found themselves not really having the magic that they once had.

They canceled Invader Zim because it was getting an older audience.

 

[Bâtard Consanguine]

Chi-blockers dog-walk benders multiple times in both TLA and Korra. Its even dumber in Korra since they have actual mechs and this fuck-ass shock gauntlets that can one-tap basically anyone.

Or someone took the concept behind internal combustion engines that were now commonplace and figured out how to make firearms.

 

[Duine In Cudromach]

After Korra I genuinely cannot believe they doubled down on the whole "Non-benders are totally a oppressed minority" idea. It's not fun. It's not interesting. It's just the most basic of ideas that only makes it out of the writing room because everything has to be viewed through the lens of social justice. It's not even consistent with the original series. Benders are rare and mystical. They aren't a cohesive group capable of holding any sort of systematic power. It's not even shown that non-bending bloodlines are a thing. As far as we know its just rng and families are mixed between mostly non-benders and benders. And even besides, it's very clearly illustrated that non-benders are more than capable combatants that can go up against benders.

You could get away with this as a small contingent of people who were oppressed by benders, and given the way the world has shown to operate you could even get away with somebody like Amon convincing people that they are actually being oppressed (despite the benders basically being the working-class backbone of the entire city). But yeah, the idea that non-benders have classically been oppressed by their peers feels extremely weird after just wathing the original Avatar and realizing how uncommon bending is among the masses. The only time we even see a bender in an elite position is the Fire Lord; the Earth King is mundane, most nobility we see are mundane.

I could kinda-sorta see people pointing to the Fire Nation as a 'tyranny of benders', but you'd mostly have uprisings in old Fire Nation-conqeuered territory, not a place like Republic City (where, again, benders seem largely to be blue-collar workers and a special force in the police).

They canceled Invader Zim because it was getting an older audience.

The cancellation of Invader Zim is because they blew the equivalent to a full season's budget on 3D modeling walnuts to throw at a moose.

 

[Chilson]

After Korra I genuinely cannot believe they doubled down on the whole "Non-benders are totally a oppressed minority" idea. It's not fun. It's not interesting. It's just the most basic of ideas that only makes it out of the writing room because everything has to be viewed through the lens of social justice. It's not even consistent with the original series. Benders are rare and mystical. They aren't a cohesive group capable of holding any sort of systematic power. It's not even shown that non-bending bloodlines are a thing. As far as we know its just rng and families are mixed between mostly non-benders and benders. And even besides, it's very clearly illustrated that non-benders are more than capable combatants that can go up against benders.

If Korra was written better I could maybe see it working.

Have it so that benders couldn't "take power" in their own nations because there were simply so few of them as an already small group was divided into thirds (after the air nomad genocide) due to the hard line elemental divisions of the three nations and the autocratic divisions enforced by the nations leadership. An obstacle that republic city doesn't have due to the cohabitation of the three nations and the lack of autocratic levers of control allowing a consolidated group of benders from all three nations to hold disproportionate power over non-benders.

I think they were even trying to do that with the triple Triad, but completely borked it due to spending almost no time developing them and the bender/non-bender conflict as a whole. In fact, having benders be "blue collar" completely works against the idea and only makes the conflict even more retarded and improbable.

Without development the entire storyline doesn't work at all, but I can definitely see it working if a competent writer was in charge.

 

[Slap47]

tl;dr

I do not even really blame Nick for my criticisms of Korra.

The idea of an Avatar show made for slightly older people that they can still watch with their kids was fine. The comically bad M.Night movie was obviously a misstep, but the actual Korra series was just a bunch of mistakes in the writing department. They didn't even really fuck up when choosing that writing department since they had proven themselves previously.

 

[Incecticyder]

After Korra I genuinely cannot believe they doubled down on the whole "Non-benders are totally a oppressed minority" idea. It's not fun. It's not interesting. It's just the most basic of ideas that only makes it out of the writing room because everything has to be viewed through the lens of social justice. It's not even consistent with the original series. Benders are rare and mystical. They aren't a cohesive group capable of holding any sort of systematic power. It's not even shown that non-bending bloodlines are a thing. As far as we know its just rng and families are mixed between mostly non-benders and benders. And even besides, it's very clearly illustrated that non-benders are more than capable combatants that can go up against benders.

There is the issue of benders being born to non-benders and non-benders being born to benders. This conflict tears families apart. This isn't racial. There are no clear lines.

Chi-blockers dog-walk benders multiple times in both TLA and Korra. Its even dumber in Korra since they have actual mechs and this fuck-ass shock gauntlets that can one-tap basically anyone.

Or someone took the concept behind internal combustion engines that were now commonplace and figured out how to make firearms.

You could argue that some of those things were developed later (after the friction started) but still, we do not see how non-benders started hating benders. Even the bending triads were recruiting non-benders and harming benders. They were very equal opportunity. This is the problem with woke shows: they either make the bad guys too nice or too cartoonishly evil. The BENDING Triads are equal opportunity while Kuvira is made into a "worse than Hitler" villain by causing her to go into conflicts she had no need for. The entire show is vibes rather evidence. We are told something is the case and we are to treat it as such because that what the script wants. They want us to see the triads as bending supremacists but forget to make them such.

You could get away with this as a small contingent of people who were oppressed by benders, and given the way the world has shown to operate you could even get away with somebody like Amon convincing people that they are actually being oppressed (despite the benders basically being the working-class backbone of the entire city). But yeah, the idea that non-benders have classically been oppressed by their peers feels extremely weird after just wathing the original Avatar and realizing how uncommon bending is among the masses. The only time we even see a bender in an elite position is the Fire Lord; the Earth King is mundane, most nobility we see are mundane.

I could kinda-sorta see people pointing to the Fire Nation as a 'tyranny of benders', but you'd mostly have uprisings in old Fire Nation-conqeuered territory, not a place like Republic City (where, again, benders seem largely to be blue-collar workers and a special force in the police).

Which makes us ask this: "Before the Equalists, how were the non-benders oppressed?" I will give you this, the police should have been hiring more non-metalbenders but apart from that, there was no issue. The first season needed a pro-bending movement that had the opposing views (hurting non-benders and being tolerated by the police) but no such thing happened.

If Korra was written better I could maybe see it working.

Have it so that benders couldn't "take power" in their own nations because there were simply so few of them as an already small group was divided into thirds (after the air nomad genocide) due to the hard line elemental divisions of the three nations and the autocratic divisions enforced by the nations leadership. An obstacle that republic city doesn't have due to the cohabitation of the three nations and the lack of autocratic levers of control allowing a consolidated group of benders from all three nations to hold disproportionate power over non-benders.

I think they were even trying to do that with the triple Triad, but completely borked it do to spending almost no time developing them and the bender/non-bender conflict as a whole. In fact, having benders be "blue collar" completely works against the idea and only makes the conflict even more retarded and improbable.

Without development the entire storyline doesn't work at all, but I can definitely see it working if a competent writer was in charge.

Here is the issue: ATLA was based in Asian culture, society and conflicts. TLOK was based in Western culture, society and conflicts. Bryke did not study the latter as well as they did the former and copy-pasted the conflicts from our world to theirs without enough work to make it make sense in Avatar. There have been conflicts between workers in the West. Hell, there has been bloodshed too. In Avatar, there is little reason for non-bender workers to hate the bender workers. A lightning bender will not take a lightning bending job from a non-bender. They also are part of the same nationality and speak the same language while holding the same values. Also, both have family members who are of the opposite group. The reasons for fighting are miniscule. The writing staff did not think these through. They were lazy/incompetent. They should have spend more time to translate these conflicts into ones that fit Avatar but they didn't.

 

[Jormungand]

After Korra I genuinely cannot believe they doubled down on the whole "Non-benders are totally a oppressed minority" idea. It's not fun. It's not interesting. It's just the most basic of ideas that only makes it out of the writing room because everything has to be viewed through the lens of social justice. It's not even consistent with the original series. Benders are rare and mystical. They aren't a cohesive group capable of holding any sort of systematic power. It's not even shown that non-bending bloodlines are a thing. As far as we know its just rng and families are mixed between mostly non-benders and benders. And even besides, it's very clearly illustrated that non-benders are more than capable combatants that can go up against benders.

Here's the core problem with the writers of Legend of Korra. They're so desperate to look smart, so they try to write stories about social commentary about the world.
They're essentially the living embodiment of the phrase

“An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity, a physicist tries to make it simple, for an idiot anything the more complicated it is the more he will admire it, if you make something so clusterfucked he can't understand it he's gonna think you're a god cause you made it so complicated nobody can understand it. That's how they write journals in Academics, they try to make it so complicated people think you're a genius.”​

The problem is that they always fail miserably because they know fuck all about what they want to talk about and are incapable of researching the core problems, since doing so would always go against their hyper-idealistic worldview.

Again, the story about non-benders being oppressed by benders falls apart because benders are not the majority in Republic City.
Hell, Mako and Bolin were struggling to make money despite being benders, and this narrative ultimately falls apart when you remember that the one in charge of Futre Industries, a massive business conglomerate responsible for automobiles and advanced technologies that make Republic City flourish, was founded by a non-bender, Hiroshi Sato. The Father of Asami, the girl Korra hooks up with in the end.

It's like they wanted to write an X-Men-type story, but failed to understand that it was mutants that were oppressed because of the overwhelming number of normal humans.

This mistake would happen again in The Dragon Prince. The Elves and Dragons kept bitching about the humans for being racist and using dark magic. Still, then you learn the context behind it and realize the humans were doing whatever they could to survive because the Dragons and Elves were constantly hoping they would die. They did everything they could to ensure humanity would go extinct.
It got so bad that they got upset when the humans fought off a lava monster and won.

This happens all the time because it's very painfully obvious that the people who write these stories have deep-seated hatred for the working class for failing to live up to their expectations.

Is it any wonder why the animation industry is dying when the people working in it hate your guts?

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Non bender revolts have merits as a story. It's not a leap of logic to assume there will be prejudice towards non benders, especially in times of peace. You can easily make a 1 to 1 translation with the situation of benders being equivalent to the Samurai class in Japan, that went into massive spergout when its power base shook as technology and free trade overtook it. Even the time period is roughly similar.

The issue is that the avatar is just a big stick without any real authority. A better setup for a show would be having the Avatar help the non benders while maintaining a secret identity due to the benders becoming tyrannical in times of peace.

 

[Gimmick Account]

They were a compelling idea in Korra, then they took the lazy way out and just made the leader like, evil or something. Just beat him and the issue is resolved, right?
What's nuts is doing that again, and basically doing the same thing again, when Korra fumbled it so that interesting concept was still on the table. Setting aside whether it makes any sense while Aang is still alive, which it fucking does not.

Yeah they're portrayed as too competent at fighting benders, but that didn't initially mean they're on equal footing socially (given specifically the setting and social changes of Korra's time, not the broader society in the original series), since that's who they were expecting to fight. All their training and tactics were geared towards an eventual surprise revolt or whatever. It ended stupid but it didn't start stupid; when you're introducing what's changed after a big time skip and some characters say "hey we're oppressed now" you have to assume it's legit and that we'll see evidence of it. Turns out no and they're basically just the foot clan, but whatever.
Maybe learn from that and don't recycle the shit everybody hated in a setting where it's even less justifiable, though.
The Deprived could have just been bandits who wanted a treasure or some secret monks who were activated when Aang unknowingly found the map or fire separatists who wanted to keep the air nomads gone or whatever. Any of which could still have joined forces with or forcibly converted magically by Bad Guy if we really needed that (firebenders getting injected with bonus air powers sounds kinda rad though), if they weren't gonna do anything with the non-bender thing anyway.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

If you cannot see the subtext, then you might be the reason why Netflix feels the need to explain everything twice.

There is a difference between needing everything to be explained twice and imagining stuff to fill in the blanks in the story to try and prove a point.

And she accelerated it. That is what I am saying. The Avatar is everyone's representation. Not just that of the Benders. They call her out on it. She fucked up.

I'm not sure how to explain it more clearly so again - the show does not demonstrate Korra being responsible for the Equalists becoming stronger. Not once is there a correlation drawn.

The writers forgot to have her undergo character development. Still, she has setbacks. She does not learn from them.

So you are indirectly agreeing with me that she does not suffer substantial consequences that force her to change. Good to know.

Not for lack of trying. Amon saw his chance and took it. She landed on Amon's grasp which is worse. This is time she could have spent figuring things out instead. Not as bad consequences as you might have wanted but this is a short episode per season series.

So again, you agree with my point that she doesn't suffer consequences while trying not to agree with it.

It was explained as a very rare talent. Some people are just talented like that. Toph learned metalbending. How is that any different? Amon and his family are just that talented.

Toph's metalbending was actually explained as her bending trace particles of earth in metal. Hell it was even shown visually. This is very different from Amon, Tarrlok and Yakone being able to basically bloodbend with their minds without moving (and the implication that it was some kind of genetic superpower like they were X-Men rather than a specific skill invented by Hama...but if we were to talk about how TLOK fucks up the lore of Avatar, we'd be here all day) and Amon managing to remove people's bending with it...somehow. How? Nobody knows. We know how Toph metalbends. How does Amon remove people's bending with bloodbending? Your theory is as good as mine or some random teenage girl's on Twitter.

Energybending was never really that explored. It was barely used nor explained. From what I understood, Aang healed Korra from the inside of her body. They were sharing a body so that is how I interpret it. Still, it should have been better shown.

So you agree that it's stupid and retarded but you're just gonna let it fly. OK then.

I assume it is because she sucks at spiritual things.

The Avatar State is a defense mechanism that kicks in regardless. And Korra already showed that she can do meditation previously...somehow...when she got locked up by Tarrlok. So it still doesn't make sense.

I suppose this is a case where we choose who we believe.

No it's not. Does the show ever show Korra needing to learn more airbending or learning more airbending or show that Tenzin was right or even have him bring it up again? No it doesn't. There's really only one conclusion you can draw from that.

She got her pet to threaten him. That testimony wouldn't hold much water.

In the show it did. Her accusing Unalaq worked like a charm and nobody even brings up that she was intimidating a judge to get a conviction overturned and just accidentally ended up learning that Unalaq was evil.

It lead to her getting ambushed and being knocked out of action. Were you expecting another punishment? She ruined her relationship to achieve nothing.

I was expecting the show to follow through on actual long-term consequences for Korra. Which, again, it doesn't.

Perhaps not other than make things awkward. That is arguably not enough. Still, the plan is not one she really succeeded in doing anything. It gave her context but she still lost.

I suppose "losing" means basically winning via Deus Ex Machina in this case. But at least you agree that the writing isn't remotely enough here.

I am not saying it is not part of the lore. Tenzin found the resolve to let go of his father's shadow around this part. Should it have been more addressed? It was in a certain notebook. I do not recall where though. But I do agree that it deserved a mention. I do not know how they could go about it. Spirits were an unknown factor at this time and airbenders were sprouting about. A case of where to begin? I suppose what I am trying to say is that they crammed a whole lot of plotpoints in season 3 that they failed to address all of them.

Let's stick to the show not external Avatar material not that external Avatar material is any good for the most part. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here other than yes, we are once again in agreement that the show fails to have any actual consequences for Korra's dumb decisions.

Tenzin has a hard time being able to let go of the past. The new Air Nation is composed of individuals who do not care all that much about the old Air Nation. Largely, they created a new one. The Air Nomads are a bit different than the new Air Nation.

The airbenders are back. Korra doing the stupidest thing possible and leaving the spirit portals open after witnessing how much chaos this will cause ends up conveniently doing something positive so that Korra again doesn't need to actually grapple with fucking up.

Her unleashing of the spirits created a big mess that never quite resolved. She gets called out for this but it isn't like it was illegal or anything.

She gets called out for this by Raiko. Who again is not shown in a positive light. Not like Tenzin or Lin or Mako or Asami or anybody else calls her out for it.

I always felt the story was rather even handed. We saw the destruction and came to the conclusion that he had a point. Korra didn't break the law but she isn't blameless either.

See above. Raiko doesn't get a single positive moment where he is not behaving in a way that is clearly meant to make him look like an asshole.

She was but it was undone.

Just double-checked. She doesn't technically get exiled, it's basically Raiko saying "GTFO" after she messes up yet again and Korra retaliates with "fine, didn't wanna stay here anyway". But I did find a minor attempt at having Korra suffer some actual consequences with her lamenting her 8% approval rating. Too bad it doesn't actually materialize into anything substantial so it's yet again not really a case of actual consequences but hey, it's something.

And Korra was also called out. More at the start. And mainly by Tenzin. Mako called her out too.

And in those cases, Tenzin and Mako were supposed to be in the wrong. Heck I don't think Tenzin has a single moment where Korra is actually in the wrong vs. him.

Season 1

Already pointed out that Korra's actions are not shown to have any effect on Equalist membership. The rest I have addressed.

Season 2

Already addressed. Opening the portals is clearly a mistake because as the flashbacks showed the spirits and humans were separated because it was literally impossible for the two to coexist without violence. Korra basically says "deal with it" and keeps them open and ends up bringing back the airbenders by accident as a bonus.

Episodes: "The Terror Within" and "Enter the Void"

Underestimating the Red Lotus lead to her capture. She gets called out by Tenzin and Suyin.

Also, she fails to grasp the strength and conviction in the Red Lotus which in turn contributes to her poisoning in "Venom of the Red Lotus". Then again, you could argue that the Red Lotus are just that strong.

Pretty sure neither Tenzin nor Suyin call her out for her rashness. It's basically settled on as the "well, not like we've got any other options" plan.

This one is a mixed bag. She gets called out by Katara and Asami for isolating during her recovery which prolongs the recovery period. Also, without the Avatar, the Earth Kingdom collapses and Kuvira rises. She is also called out for failing to stop Kuvira diplomatically as she doesn't have leverage. This results in war.

Gotta double check because only thing I recall is Asami and the rest of Team Avatar being all happy to see her. The Earth Kingdom collapses anyway, it's shown that the only way it was gonna be reunified was by iron fisted rule which Kuvira provided.

Overall, the idea that Korra isn't called out or she doesn't face consequences is wrong. She gets called out (especially early) and she faces consequences. I think I see your issue: You want frequent and permanent consequences. Well, not every mistake will result in dire consequences. Some will be resolved easily and others will not.

It's not wrong, what you've shown is a series of examples of Korra doing dumb stuff and then basically getting away with it. Yes I did want some permanent consequences but what I wanted most of all was for Korra to actually have consequences that force her to grow. This never happens.

She had the mercury out but it staying in her system harmed her for a longer period of time. Her organs must have been a mess. As for the PTSD, she should have accepted help from the spirits.

Yeah, now we're back to headcanon territory. It's OK but not what the show demonstrated or openly stated.

No, Katara restored her functions. She could walk. They just didn't have all the mercury out yet but they could test for that.

Katara healed her as much as she could but Korra was still screwed. And again, we aren't shown the world having that kind of technology. The fact that they didn't find her real issue indicates that it doesn't exist.

Apart from the loss of the previous lives and her confidence. I have criticized this show to Hell and back. I am not defending the stupidity. I am just arguing my points. Not everyone who disagree with you is a fanboy. Understand that there are multiple ways to see a work. Korra does get called out. She just remains an idiot.

I'm not accusing you of being a fanboy. I'm pointing out that you have some lingering fondness for the show, whether from childhood nostalgia or whatnot, which is why you defend some parts of it, no matter how stupid. I'm guilty of this with other media too. There's a difference.

 

[I Love Beef]

To be a little bit more fair to Nickelodeon, I don't think this was fully the case. I brought up not too long ago in another thread about Nickelodeon actually did have many attempts in trying to diversify their content and pursue more action-oriented children's cartoons. They even attempted years before Avatar to do an anime-esque action cartoon.

I'll say what said then: Nickelodeon probably always did want to do programming geared towards older audiences. However, experiences like Avatar and of course Invader Zim made them realize that they investment may not have been worth it given the returns they received. Nick did have a formula that worked for them: easy to produce comedies that they can milk with ease. Times of course changed and Nick unfortunately found themselves not really having the magic that they once had.

I'm not trying to push buttons and I know about Constance Payne, but I have to disagree with you on that, mostly.

Nickelodeon was so proud of being children's programming, its slogan was "By Kids, For Kids".

Don't get me wrong though, I do see what you're saying. They did want to try to put in more older and teen aimed content, but that was all live action content and TeenNick was trying for teen girls aimed content, although As By Ginger was a good attempt.

The problem though is that they didn't want to "scare" any of its more conservative parents off of its channel, unlike Cartoon Network (which honestly never was a problem) and KidsWB (also not a problem, infact cable killed KidsWB). Nickelodeon wanted to ensure its animated shows would be "wholesome kid friendly fun" while all of the "darker" content would be live action (and "relatable" or whatever). I'm sure you're old enough to remember this, but this is for everyone else reading this to know: Back in the 1990s and 2000s, animation and anything drawn was looked as babysitting fare and "something to grow out of". That's how bad the conditions were for anything drawn in the USA.

As what Cactus said:

They canceled Invader Zim because it was getting an older audience.

And I bring up my point about Nick's stances on violence before Avatar to Prophetic Spirit:

"ngl, when your channel features majorly shows about resolving violence with either pranks, pacifism, or sports of all things than the reality when life does break down into fisticuffs, I'm not surprised at both their attempts of elemental dodgeball and trying to implement that in an anime-inspired animated show where the main staple of the source inspiration is works where the main character usually resolves conflicts by beating the evil out of the villain."

The only one show where it was portrayed that violence actually solved a problem was on Rocko's Modern Life. Everything else, including Doug and Hey Arnold had either at its best alternatives, "consequences", or at worst, thinking sports would save the day.

I especially hold a very strong revulsion towards CatDog because that was a replacement Ren and Stimpy off the bat, made to be more "palpable" but was honestly less digestible because it was nothing but a sadist show. At least in Ren and Stimpy, there were emotional twists and payoffs in its insanity.

Shoot, for all insanity that Ren and Stimpy was, it mirrors what Avatar's going through right now, save the controversial creator bit.

You are right that there are likely or was a pocket of individuals in Nickelodeon that wanted to not be stifled creatively and did want to push the envelope, just like how Nickelodeon's slime gags were based off of "You Can't Do That On Television!". But as time tells, homogenization is just a feature function of corporations. It's not done because it's remembered why it was funny and groundbreaking, it's a part of their corporate identity. And that's when those individuals left to refuse to fix a machine that is fundamentally beyond them alone inside the complex to fix.

 

[Incecticyder]

There is a difference between needing everything to be explained twice and imagining stuff to fill in the blanks in the story to try and prove a point.

Stories demand that you do not need everything explained. They give you two points and trust you enough to make the connection.

I'm not sure how to explain it more clearly so again - the show does not demonstrate Korra being responsible for the Equalists becoming stronger. Not once is there a correlation drawn.

Korra's words are used as a propaganda tool for the Equalists and their support grows unchecked. She reinforced Amon's messaging and even Tenzin warned her about it. Did you need a scene where someone says "Korra drove us to the Equalists." or something? It is narrative framing.

So you are indirectly agreeing with me that she does not suffer substantial consequences that force her to change. Good to know.

Not saying she is a good character. I am saying that you shouldn't expect every mistake to end with a catastrophic outcome. Some are smaller and temporary. The biggest change was losing to the Dark Avatar. She is a bit less abrasive afterwards. In Season 3, she makes less mistakes. The victories of the villains come from being really strong and capable rather than Korra being stupid. Not even Aang had dire consequences for EVERYTHING. He was just better written.

So again, you agree with my point that she doesn't suffer consequences while trying not to agree with it.

Again, what were you expecting? A loss of limb? She got captured. Not every mistake will cause great effect.

This is very different from Amon, Tarrlok and Yakone being able to basically bloodbend with their minds without moving

Bumi could earthbend with his face and Ming-Hua could waterbend with her mind. Exceptional people exist.

and the implication that it was some kind of genetic superpower like they were X-Men rather than a specific skill invented by Hama...

Discovered by Hama. There is a difference.

Amon managing to remove people's bending with it...somehow. How? Nobody knows.

It was explained in The Legend of Korra—The Art of the Animated Series, Book One: Air. It cuts the chakra paths connecting one to their bending.

So you agree that it's stupid and retarded but you're just gonna let it fly. OK then.

I am not letting it fly. This was a flaw of ATLA as well. I am saying that I have a theory as to how it works. Should it have been explained better? Yes. Not arguing otherwise.

The Avatar State is a defense mechanism that kicks in regardless. And Korra already showed that she can do meditation previously...somehow...when she got locked up by Tarrlok. So it still doesn't make sense.

Being able to do meditation is helpful. Korra has an inherent disadvantage to the spiritual regardless. Shecouldn't connect to the Avatar Spirits as she isn't spiritual.

No it's not. Does the show ever show Korra needing to learn more airbending or learning more airbending or show that Tenzin was right or even have him bring it up again? No it doesn't. There's really only one conclusion you can draw from that.

She lacks the spiritual aspects of bending still. Still, you could argue that the show fails in this regard. That it fails to demonstrate how being out of alignment with the spiritual aspect of bending hurts. Unalaq calls her out too but...

Let's stick to the show not external Avatar material not that external Avatar material is any good for the most part. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here other than yes, we are once again in agreement that the show fails to have any actual consequences for Korra's dumb decisions.

I am taking canon into account regardless where it is from. I am not defending it but again, the Dark Avatar was a unique threat that had no way of measure. Losing to someone of equal power is understandable. She lost the lives. Was there anything she could have done better? Perhaps not falling head first for his plan.

The airbenders are back. Korra doing the stupidest thing possible and leaving the spirit portals open after witnessing how much chaos this will cause ends up conveniently doing something positive so that Korra again doesn't need to actually grapple with fucking up.

The world's energy DID need rebalancing after the genocide. That was what Unalaq was relying upon to get the spirits on his side. Even as far as Kuruk there were problems with spirits. There were both good and bad consequences. The problem is not that opening the portals was a mistake but rather the fact that there was no answer as to what to do.

She gets called out for this by Raiko. Who again is not shown in a positive light. Not like Tenzin or Lin or Mako or Asami or anybody else calls her out for it.

See above. Raiko doesn't get a single positive moment where he is not behaving in a way that is clearly meant to make him look like an asshole.

Again, Raiko was being in a bad state. He was dealing with issues too. He wasn't treated as in the wrong, more like a man in a tough position that was uncertain on how to deal with things. Perhaps he should have had a crisis unit? Should he be better prepared? He was an asshole but also on the right. Sometimes the asshole is correct. That is a good lesson to teach kids. Also, it is good to trust the audience to not need spoonfeeding who is right and who is wrong.

Just double-checked. She doesn't technically get exiled, it's basically Raiko saying "GTFO" after she messes up yet again and Korra retaliates with "fine, didn't wanna stay here anyway". But I did find a minor attempt at having Korra suffer some actual consequences with her lamenting her 8% approval rating. Too bad it doesn't actually materialize into anything substantial so it's yet again not really a case of actual consequences but hey, it's something.

First things first, if the head of state tells you to get out, it is a bit bigger than a school teacher telling you to go to the corner. And second, her leaving was to de-escalate things too. She wasn't helping. She shouldn't be arrested (no crime) but leaving to let things cool down is appropriate.

And in those cases, Tenzin and Mako were supposed to be in the wrong. Heck I don't think Tenzin has a single moment where Korra is actually in the wrong vs. him.

How? They are clearly right. Tenzin calls her out for fighting criminals and getting into trouble, lacking patience (she burns a relic too), challenging Amon (which helps his plan), being arrogant and chasing easy answers instead of real understanding. The story definitively says he is on the right.

As for Mako, he calls her out for creating drama out of jealousy, interfering with proper police work, her recklessness, not respecting boundaries and for trying to drag him into a war.

They both call her out and their warning is proven true.

Already pointed out that Korra's actions are not shown to have any effect on Equalist membership. The rest I have addressed.

Addressed above.

Already addressed. Opening the portals is clearly a mistake because as the flashbacks showed the spirits and humans were separated because it was literally impossible for the two to coexist without violence. Korra basically says "deal with it" and keeps them open and ends up bringing back the airbenders by accident as a bonus.

The issue is that this is a mixed bag. The portals needed to open. The world needed it. Can spirits co-exist with humans? We are not given a definitive answer. I will say this however, humanity is much stronger than during Wan's time. They can fight back. Back in the day, there was no bending nor machines. The spirits have calmed down too to an extend.

Pretty sure neither Tenzin nor Suyin call her out for her rashness. It's basically settled on as the "well, not like we've got any other options" plan.

She is called out by Tenzin for fighting, breaking stuff, her impulsiveness, her immaturity and for making things worse.

She is called out by Suyin for wanting to get into conflict without thinking. Telling her that she should strategize first.

They clearly tell her that there are other options and were proven correct.

Gotta double check because only thing I recall is Asami and the rest of Team Avatar being all happy to see her.

They were but it was soft. Katara told her to be patient and Asami told her she was writing to her and she was worried. They were happy and understanding but also conserned.

The Earth Kingdom collapses anyway, it's shown that the only way it was gonna be reunified was by iron fisted rule which Kuvira provided.

Saving the Earth Kingdom was impossible. Guiding Kuvira into something more positive wasn't. That is what I mean. The Avatar is supposed to help.

It's not wrong, what you've shown is a series of examples of Korra doing dumb stuff and then basically getting away with it. Yes I did want some permanent consequences but what I wanted most of all was for Korra to actually have consequences that force her to grow. This never happens.

No it doesn't happen in a major way for a while. At least not until the middle of Season 4. That is around when Korra is shown to not make the same mistakes. It does take a long time for her to learn but changes are made by then. She is a bit more patient and is willing to make to a plan. I agree that it is a bit late and that other events should have caused this change but we cannot say that it did not happen.

Yeah, now we're back to headcanon territory. It's OK but not what the show demonstrated or openly stated.

What I am saying is that she should have accepted their help. Would it work? Who knows? Better to give it a shot.

Katara healed her as much as she could but Korra was still screwed. And again, we aren't shown the world having that kind of technology. The fact that they didn't find her real issue indicates that it doesn't exist.

That technology can be invented. She had Asami with her. At least try science. That is one of Korra's flaws. She doesn't try things that might take time to learn or work. She is impatient. Maybe it would fail but it is better to try.

I'm not accusing you of being a fanboy. I'm pointing out that you have some lingering fondness for the show, whether from childhood nostalgia or whatnot, which is why you defend some parts of it, no matter how stupid. I'm guilty of this with other media too. There's a difference.

What I am saying is that there are good and bad aspects. And I try to provide receipts. We are discussing things. Is TLOK dogshit from start to finish? No. Is it good but heavily flawed? Maybe. All I know is that it could have been a lot better. It has merit but it was not well made.

 

[Tinnitus]

Bumi could earthbend with his face and Ming-Hua could waterbend with her mind. Exceptional people exist.

I remember in ATLA with dev commentaries interspersed throughout the episodes that Zuko managed to keep using his fire due to Azulon's theory. (+ the complete darkness scene being easy to animate, lol)

Azulon got told by fire sages that his lineage could get more powerful if he lets Avatar Roku's descendants mix with his.

 

[Incecticyder]

I remember in ATLA with dev commentaries interspersed throughout the episodes that Zuko managed to keep using his fire due to Azulon's theory. (+ the complete darkness scene being easy to animate, lol)

Azulon got told by fire sages that his lineage could get more powerful if he lets Avatar Roku's descendants mix with his.

It is simpler than that. Look at athletes. There have always been freaks that can pull of amazing feats. Some are way better than others.

 

[LordofCringe7206 Vol. 2]

Here's the core problem with the writers of Legend of Korra. They're so desperate to look smart, so they try to write stories about social commentary about the world.
They're essentially the living embodiment of the phrase

“An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity, a physicist tries to make it simple, for an idiot anything the more complicated it is the more he will admire it, if you make something so clusterfucked he can't understand it he's gonna think you're a god cause you made it so complicated nobody can understand it. That's how they write journals in Academics, they try to make it so complicated people think you're a genius.”​

The problem is that they always fail miserably because they know fuck all about what they want to talk about and are incapable of researching the core problems, since doing so would always go against their hyper-idealistic worldview.

Again, the story about non-benders being oppressed by benders falls apart because benders are not the majority in Republic City.
Hell, Mako and Bolin were struggling to make money despite being benders, and this narrative ultimately falls apart when you remember that the one in charge of Futre Industries, a massive business conglomerate responsible for automobiles and advanced technologies that make Republic City flourish, was founded by a non-bender, Hiroshi Sato. The Father of Asami, the girl Korra hooks up with in the end.

It's like they wanted to write an X-Men-type story, but failed to understand that it was mutants that were oppressed because of the overwhelming number of normal humans.

This mistake would happen again in The Dragon Prince. The Elves and Dragons kept bitching about the humans for being racist and using dark magic. Still, then you learn the context behind it and realize the humans were doing whatever they could to survive because the Dragons and Elves were constantly hoping they would die. They did everything they could to ensure humanity would go extinct.
It got so bad that they got upset when the humans fought off a lava monster and won.

This happens all the time because it's very painfully obvious that the people who write these stories have deep-seated hatred for the working class for failing to live up to their expectations.

Is it any wonder why the animation industry is dying when the people working in it hate your guts?

Non bender revolts have merits as a story. It's not a leap of logic to assume there will be prejudice towards non benders, especially in times of peace. You can easily make a 1 to 1 translation with the situation of benders being equivalent to the Samurai class in Japan, that went into massive spergout when its power base shook as technology and free trade overtook it. Even the time period is roughly similar.

The issue is that the avatar is just a big stick without any real authority. A better setup for a show would be having the Avatar help the non benders while maintaining a secret identity due to the benders becoming tyrannical in times of peace.

The big issue with the equalist thing is that they were writing it based on how the real world works and not how the universe within the show works. I've talked about this before, but imagine atheists or secularists existing when we literally have full proof of an afterlife existing and what exactly it is.

It is understandable why the real world takes so many different turns at different times in regards to religion, politics and culture when we really have no idea what lies ahead for us. The world of Avatar however is not like that. There is a great spiritual connection to the world that everyone knows about, with the four nations and the four bending arts being an important part of the spiritual balance.

Now you could still have a conflict like the equalists because in reality there probably would be people who didn't care about the spiritual balance of the world and hated benders out of spite for having a power that they don't. We already saw that in the original series with the Fire Nation thinking they were greater the spiritual binds of the world. In fact, what I mentioned above about atheists existing if God was undoubtedly proven to be true would likely happen in real life since so many atheists are man children who don't like being told what to do and feel they are greater than any God.

That is where the problem emerges: they weren't writing a plot the way they should have. They were writing it based on their own simpleton views on philosophy and politics. It doesn't matter anyway though because even if probably written the fans wouldn't still be able to understand. Take into consideration that to this day there are retards in the fandom that can't understand why Jet or Hama were villains. Or who argue Iroh is war criminal that doesn't deserved to be liked. This coming from the same fans by the way that argue that Azula is sympathetic.

Avatar is in some ways a case study in why you shouldn't discuss serious topics since so many people are too stupid to properly understand them even when they are being spelled out for you.

 

[Duine In Cudromach]

I'm not sure how to explain it more clearly so again - the show does not demonstrate Korra being responsible for the Equalists becoming stronger. Not once is there a correlation drawn.

This is really the fundamental issue with Korra (and with any Mary Sue narrative). The audience can absolutely see the character's flaws and failures, but the narrative never meaningfully addresses them.

There is a huge difference between a character who is obviously meant to be flawed actually suffering the consequences of their actions on-screen, and the audience watching them throw their weight around but never actually reaping what they would obviously sow.

And to say 'stories have subtext' is actually missing the point. A story can have subtext, but subtext is not 'you have to fill in logical gaps and assume that things are happening in the background for this to make sense'. If something important is happening that mpacts the narrative the audience needs to actually hear about it, even if it's a shitty background detail. To say "well this happened so obviously this other thing must have happened, even if we didn't see it and nobody mentioned it" isn't actually a given. You're just using a headcanon to close a hole.

Like, I mentioned in the movie, Tagah starts yelling at Aang about how he 'ran away', but we never actually saw a scene of them talking and Aang telling him he ran away and that's why the Air Nation was wiped out. (Or at least, why he blames himself.) I can assume that it happened off-screen because Tagah knows about it and there's an unclear amount of time between them meeting and Tagah weaponizing this information, but because the movie didn't actually show it I'm making assumptions that aren't actually corroborated by the text other than being the consequence of a necessary action. And in storytelling you really just can't take that kind of thing for granted. This is in no way the same as having to explain to the audience what's happening multiple times because they're looking at their phones, because in that case you DID explains omething but they probably missed it; this is just flat-out expecting the audience to fabricate plot beats that do not exist.

'Subtext' means 'implications in emotional and psychological exchanges that the characters dono't want to say out loud', not 'just assume something happened off screen that makes everything make sense.

To go back to the point about consequences, this is also where no small amount of audience friction ocurs. A character can be deeply flawed and technicaly set up to learn a lesson, and the creators may even say 'this is what the character has to learn', but if the narrative never confronts them, if no 'good' characters ever call them out, if they never have to actually overcome their flaws or else live with the consequences, then narratively, those flaws are meaningless. They can't be ignored by the audience, but they are functionally ignored by the story, meaning the character never has to actually confront anything or challenge themselves to be better.

Which is largely the problem with Korra. She is built to be flawed, but those flaws don't meaningfully serve as obstacles or complications, and are only really addressed very early in the series before no longer being relevant to the storylines as a whole. Korra's brashness complicates the confrontation with Amon initially, but by the final fight the actual obstacle is that he manages to bloodbend away her bending and she overcomes that not by getting in touch with the spiritual aspects of her training that she's been ignoring, or learning to temper her anger and embrace the stillness of the Air Nomads, but by trying to hit Amon harder and magically figuring out how. Her bending is restored not by anything that she does to overcome her weaknesses, but by Aang showing up and fixing it because it would be a crappy finale to a miniseries if she just lost her bending and there was no resolution.

Her naivete is what allows Unaloq to do his thing, but how does she defeat him? By fusing with a kite and having a kaiju laser battle. Her conflit with Zaheer and his allies has philosophical impliations but is largely physical combat. Same with Kuvira. Korra rarely has to confront herself, she just punches harder and eventually it all works out.

This is also, to tie it in to the original series, why the fight with Ozai feels so hollow, especially compared to the fight against Azula. It's a big spectacle, but Aang never had to overcome his reticence about killing or actually seek out energybending himself, he just sleepwalked onto a lion-turtle and got the best superpowrs and then used them on Ozai. There are ways this could have felt fulfilling (the simplest fix would have been for Aang to search for the 'first benders' himself rather than sleepwalking into the solution), but as it was executed it feels like a Deus ex Machina. Whatever the case, when Aang fights Ozai, Ozai isn't really forcing Aang to confront and overcome anything about himself. He doesn't necessarily need to (not all stories need that kind of character arc), but the way the show is built leads to an expectation of some personal revelation, especially given how Aang was agonizing about needing to kill Ozai, and we just get a cool lightshow and a shrug.

Hop over to the Azula fight and it's not just Zuko and Katara being badasses; Zuko puts everything he's learned during his exile and redemption into the fight and further displays his mastery of lightning redirection-- an ability that could only be used by letting go of the anger that defined him during the first two seasons. It's a fight that Zuko fully earns because we've seen his character grow from the start; he could never have defeated Azula as he was at the start of the show.

How much has Korra really changed between Season 1 and Season 4, and how do they changes actually inform how she confronts the villains?

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

It is understandable why the real world takes so many different turns at different times in regards to religion, politics and culture when we really have no idea what lies ahead for us. The world of Avatar however is not like that. There is a great spiritual connection to the world that everyone knows about, with the four nations and the four bending arts being an important part of the spiritual balance.

I think the opposite, the original plot worked because it was in its basis a story rooted in real world history. Japanese aggression, Chinese isolationism, Tibetan pacifism and Eskimo tribalism. It lends believability and a solid base to the plot despite the magical elements.

Republic City might as well be Hogwarts. It doesn't fit neither 1900's New York or 1800's Asia, and so the various plotlines crumble because there is no base for them. "Things happen" might as well be what defines Korra.

 

[Incecticyder]

The big issue with the equalist thing is that they were writing it based on how the real world works and not how the universe within the show works. I've talked about this before, but imagine atheists or secularists existing when we literally have full proof of an afterlife existing and what exactly it is.

It is understandable why the real world takes so many different turns at different times in regards to religion, politics and culture when we really have no idea what lies ahead for us. The world of Avatar however is not like that. There is a great spiritual connection to the world that everyone knows about, with the four nations and the four bending arts being an important part of the spiritual balance.

Now you could still have a conflict like the equalists because in reality there probably would be people who didn't care about the spiritual balance of the world and hated benders out of spite for having a power that they don't. We already saw that in the original series with the Fire Nation thinking they were greater the spiritual binds of the world. In fact, what I mentioned above about atheists existing if God was undoubtedly proven to be true would likely happen in real life since so many atheists are man children who don't like being told what to do and feel they are greater than any God.

That is where the problem emerges: they weren't writing a plot the way they should have. They were writing it based on their own simpleton views on philosophy and politics. It doesn't matter anyway though because even if probably written the fans wouldn't still be able to understand. Take into consideration that to this day there are retards in the fandom that can't understand why Jet or Hama were villains. Or who argue Iroh is war criminal that doesn't deserved to be liked. This coming from the same fans by the way that argue that Azula is sympathetic.

Avatar is in some ways a case study in why you shouldn't discuss serious topics since so many people are too stupid to properly understand them even when they are being spelled out for you.

Exactly, they copied a conflict from our world but did not ask if it makes sense in theirs. Atheism, bending/non-bending discrimination and the like have no place in Avatar. Not without serious changes. The 1:1 adaptation does not work.

This is really the fundamental issue with Korra (and with any Mary Sue narrative). The audience can absolutely see the character's flaws and failures, but the narrative never meaningfully addresses them.

There is a huge difference between a character who is obviously meant to be flawed actually suffering the consequences of their actions on-screen, and the audience watching them throw their weight around but never actually reaping what they would obviously sow.

And to say 'stories have subtext' is actually missing the point. A story can have subtext, but subtext is not 'you have to fill in logical gaps and assume that things are happening in the background for this to make sense'. If something important is happening that mpacts the narrative the audience needs to actually hear about it, even if it's a shitty background detail. To say "well this happened so obviously this other thing must have happened, even if we didn't see it and nobody mentioned it" isn't actually a given. You're just using a headcanon to close a hole.

The argument is that Korra did not make things better (probably made things worse by fighting someone who carried himself better and was presenting himself as the defender of non-benders) and she was called out for it. You can argue that there is FEW times that she faces great consequences but she is seen as a fuck up by most that surround her.

She is not a Mary Sue, she is a bad character and protagonist.

'Subtext' means 'implications in emotional and psychological exchanges that the characters dono't want to say out loud', not 'just assume something happened off screen that makes everything make sense.

To go back to the point about consequences, this is also where no small amount of audience friction ocurs. A character can be deeply flawed and technicaly set up to learn a lesson, and the creators may even say 'this is what the character has to learn', but if the narrative never confronts them, if no 'good' characters ever call them out, if they never have to actually overcome their flaws or else live with the consequences, then narratively, those flaws are meaningless. They can't be ignored by the audience, but they are functionally ignored by the story, meaning the character never has to actually confront anything or challenge themselves to be better.

Again, she is called out. She learns the lesson. And she proceeds to forget it by the next day for most of the series. While she gets better, the same abrasiveness that got her into trouble remains to varying degrees. The story and the characters call her out on that. It just doesn't stick. She is a bad character.

Which is largely the problem with Korra. She is built to be flawed, but those flaws don't meaningfully serve as obstacles or complications, and are only really addressed very early in the series before no longer being relevant to the storylines as a whole. Korra's brashness complicates the confrontation with Amon initially, but by the final fight the actual obstacle is that he manages to bloodbend away her bending and she overcomes that not by getting in touch with the spiritual aspects of her training that she's been ignoring, or learning to temper her anger and embrace the stillness of the Air Nomads, but by trying to hit Amon harder and magically figuring out how. Her bending is restored not by anything that she does to overcome her weaknesses, but by Aang showing up and fixing it because it would be a crappy finale to a miniseries if she just lost her bending and there was no resolution.

Exactly, I do not disagree with that. The whole series was badly planned. IMO, she should have lost her bending, figured out how to get the Avatar State and then Airbend. After that, she could get her powers back by Aang. Sadly, it didn't happen.

Her naivete is what allows Unaloq to do his thing, but how does she defeat him? By fusing with a kite and having a kaiju laser battle. Her conflit with Zaheer and his allies has philosophical impliations but is largely physical combat. Same with Kuvira. Korra rarely has to confront herself, she just punches harder and eventually it all works out.

This is also, to tie it in to the original series, why the fight with Ozai feels so hollow, especially compared to the fight against Azula. It's a big spectacle, but Aang never had to overcome his reticence about killing or actually seek out energybending himself, he just sleepwalked onto a lion-turtle and got the best superpowrs and then used them on Ozai. There are ways this could have felt fulfilling (the simplest fix would have been for Aang to search for the 'first benders' himself rather than sleepwalking into the solution), but as it was executed it feels like a Deus ex Machina. Whatever the case, when Aang fights Ozai, Ozai isn't really forcing Aang to confront and overcome anything about himself. He doesn't necessarily need to (not all stories need that kind of character arc), but the way the show is built leads to an expectation of some personal revelation, especially given how Aang was agonizing about needing to kill Ozai, and we just get a cool lightshow and a shrug.

Hop over to the Azula fight and it's not just Zuko and Katara being badasses; Zuko puts everything he's learned during his exile and redemption into the fight and further displays his mastery of lightning redirection-- an ability that could only be used by letting go of the anger that defined him during the first two seasons. It's a fight that Zuko fully earns because we've seen his character grow from the start; he could never have defeated Azula as he was at the start of the show.

Energybending should have been shown more in the original series. It was the key to winning against Ozai without going against Aang's values. The Avatars should have explained to Aang what it does. According to the Turtle, it is important for the Avatar to have it and yet he never asks the rest about it?

How much has Korra really changed between Season 1 and Season 4, and how do they changes actually inform how she confronts the villains?

That is the thing. Apart from the final fight against Kuvira, she doesn't change a lot on her approach. She wants to beat her villains up immediately without much thought. Kuvira was the first time she was willing to plan an assault more complicated than "ATTAAAAACK!!!!"

I will try to sum up my thoughts for the last time. Feel free to quote this part:

You guys are saying that Korra is a Mary Sue that doesn't face consequences or gets called out. I disagree. She faces consequences (major and minor) and she gets called out multiple times.

My opinion is this: She isn't a Mary Sue. She is just an impulsive idiot that refuses to learn no matter how many times she gets her ass kicked/kidnapped or called out.