Battletech - Also known as Trannytech

[White Devil]

BAs are now Gundams I guess.

 

[William Murderface]

BAs are now Gundams I guess.

I just wish the writers would decide are Mechs walking tanks or capable of all kinds of acrobatics. We've got decades of fiction that goes from one extreme to the other and back again with no consistency. Now the video games show them as walking tanks (and the current art aesthetic use the game designs across the board now), and I get where the writers of DD were going with the judo ability, but even if a MechWarrior (or Proto pilot or BA trooper) knows martial arts that isn't necessarily going to translate to battlefield skills. I mean, if I have a gold medal in Judo and pilot an Annihilator, am I really going to be able to punch enough better that I can force a harder piloting roll?

Now, had it been some kind of a specialist skill from the RPG to TT I could deal with it better, like I have practiced extensively with punching with my Annihilator and can force a +1, that would be easier to swallow. At least the Special Abilities are optional (that as with Quirks) so we can ignore them.

I'm not opposed to the rule in and of itself, just the "you know Judo so your 'Mech physical attacks are more effective" doesn't really work beyond a concept.

 

[BlackDragoons]

So looks like they are doing a whole "First Battlemechs" Force Pack where they are releasing models of the first generation of Battlemechs including the infamous Mackie. Lance of Urbies plus Snord Regulars Force packs.


More Info

 

[Moja Zemlja]

Its like you guys forget that Natural Grace is a thing already.

The special maneuvers a warrior with the Natural Grace Ability
can perform are limited primarily by the player’s imagination and the
gamemaster or opponent’s agreement, but may include the ability to
execute complex gestures, handle delicate objects, perform a dance
maneuver or execute an unusual acrobatic maneuver

I just wish the writers would decide are Mechs walking tanks or capable of all kinds of acrobatics. We've got decades of fiction that goes from one extreme to the other and back again with no consistency. Now the video games show them as walking tanks (and the current art aesthetic use the game designs across the board now), and I get where the writers of DD were going with the judo ability, but even if a MechWarrior (or Proto pilot or BA trooper) knows martial arts that isn't necessarily going to translate to battlefield skills. I mean, if I have a gold medal in Judo and pilot an Annihilator, am I really going to be able to punch enough better that I can force a harder piloting roll?

Now, had it been some kind of a specialist skill from the RPG to TT I could deal with it better, like I have practiced extensively with punching with my Annihilator and can force a +1, that would be easier to swallow. At least the Special Abilities are optional (that as with Quirks) so we can ignore them.

I thought it was always that both extremes exist in-universe, low quality IS pilots in old mechs wouldn't be capable of the feats of movement that a well trained Clanner would in their fancy new mechs.

I'm not opposed to the rule in and of itself, just the "you know Judo so your 'Mech physical attacks are more effective" doesn't really work beyond a concept.

None of the SPAs really make sense, they're just there to add some interesting challenge.

 

[William Murderface]

So looks like they are doing a whole "First Battlemechs" Force Pack where they are releasing models of the first generation of Battlemechs including the infamous Mackie. Lance of Urbies plus Snord Regulars Force packs.


More Info

I would buy ten of the Proliferation box if it had the BattleDroids/BattleTechnology Battleax. That is my all-time favorite 'Mech.

 

[William Murderface]

Its like you guys forget that Natural Grace is a thing already.



I thought it was always that both extremes exist in-universe, low quality IS pilots in old mechs wouldn't be capable of the feats of movement that a well trained Clanner would in their fancy new mechs.


None of the SPAs really make sense, they're just there to add some interesting challenge.

I would probably be less upset if it wasn't called "Judo" simply because the mental image of a 'Mech doing a shoulder throw is just a little much to take.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Its like you guys forget that Natural Grace is a thing already.



I thought it was always that both extremes exist in-universe, low quality IS pilots in old mechs wouldn't be capable of the feats of movement that a well trained Clanner would in their fancy new mechs.


None of the SPAs really make sense, they're just there to add some interesting challenge.

My problem with this whole idea is that some 'Mechs clearly have more range of movement than others, yet those abilities affect all 'Mechs equally. So a skilled MechWarrior wearing a Star League-quality Neurohelmet in a Commando, one of the most unnecessarily humanoid BattleMechs ever created, can tapdance and do the Macarena at the same time. That's fine, the damn robot looks like it has the necessary joints and associated range of motion. It's just a 30 ft-tall guy in a cardboard suit, after all. But the same MechWarrior can then do Zumba in his Timber Wolf. Or twerk in a Yeoman. Even though those 'Mechs should not by any measure move like that.

Yes, there's the argument that "art should not affect gameplay", but that went straight out of the window when things like the Warhammer's spotlight or the Rifleman's reversible arms, all things only present or mentioned in the art, were implemented as part of the perks system.

I'm fine with some 'Mechs being more... flexible than others. Just like some would have arms that can be seamlessly flipped around, or torsos that go 360-degrees, more humanoid 'Mechs should by all rights have a more human-like range of motion and get some benefit out of it. But it should be a 'Mech thing, not a MechWarrior thing. It just reminds me of the Skill Forests Trees in MechWarrior Online: why the fuck are those things even there and require grinding (implying it's the pilot somehow making the weapons deal more damage or generate less heat), when all those aspects belong to the mass-produced machine instead?

 

[William Murderface]

My problem with this whole idea is that some 'Mechs clearly have more range of movement than others, yet those abilities affect all 'Mechs equally. So a skilled MechWarrior wearing a Star League-quality Neurohelmet in a Commando, one of the most unnecessarily humanoid BattleMechs ever created, can tapdance and do the Macarena at the same time. That's fine, the damn robot looks like it has the necessary joints and associated range of motion. It's just a 30 ft-tall guy in a cardboard suit, after all. But the same MechWarrior can then do Zumba in his Timber Wolf. Or twerk in a Yeoman. Even though those 'Mechs should not by any measure move like that.

Yes, there's the argument that "art should not affect gameplay", but that went straight out of the window when things like the Warhammer's spotlight or the Rifleman's reversible arms, all things only present or mentioned in the art, were implemented as part of the perks system.

I'm fine with some 'Mechs being more... flexible than others. Just like some would have arms that can be seamlessly flipped around, or torsos that go 360-degrees, more humanoid 'Mechs should by all rights have a more human-like range of motion and get some benefit out of it. But it should be a 'Mech thing, not a MechWarrior thing. It just reminds me of the Skill Forests Trees in MechWarrior Online: why the fuck are those things even there and require grinding (implying it's the pilot somehow making the weapons deal more damage or generate less heat), when all those aspects belong to the mass-produced machine instead?

Or maybe limit it to certain types of attacks, like charging or kicking. "The MW has learned how to aim for the ankles. Defenders add +1 to all piloting rolls after a successful kick" Something like that.

 

[Moja Zemlja]

Yes, there's the argument that "art should not affect gameplay", but that went straight out of the window when things like the Warhammer's spotlight or the Rifleman's reversible arms, all things only present or mentioned in the art, were implemented as part of the perks system.

But wasn't that always the point of the design quirks system? To represent the aspects of mechs described in lore/artwork.

 

[Corn Flakes]

But wasn't that always the point of the design quirks system? To represent the aspects of mechs described in lore/artwork.

It was, yes. That's my point.

Unfortunately, some people still try to argue that every 'Mech should be perfectly mechanically equal to all other 'Mechs no matter what its art says. For some reason, a good number of these people are also perfectly fine with SPAs that make no fucking sense because the "ability" in question relies on the machine, not the pilot. Like, just going through the list on Sarna and picking a few examples:

Animal Mimicry​

Gives the Pilot greater control and speed in certain difficult terrain by channeling their machine's bestial design.

That one 100% depends on the 'Mech. There's no "bestial design" if you're driving a Victor. This is a design quirk, not a pilot skill.

Cluster Hitter​

Pilot can choose to increase the number of missiles impacting the target or make an aimed shot that makes all cluster ammunition impact the same location but only if unit does not move and fires no other weapons.

Another thing that should rely on the 'Mech, not the MechWarrior. This one also goes completely against the mechanics of Cluster weapons. How does the pilot "taking aim" mean your self-guided missiles and your completely unguided LB-X shots hit the target? Another one that should be a design quirk.

Eagle's Eyes​

The pilot is enabled to detect and classify other battlefield units whether they are camouflaged or even shut down, with the exception of conventional infantry, and has additional possibilities to detect minefields and booby traps.

This one isn't terrible, since an experienced/talented MechWarrior or even vehicle crew would have a keener eye for some things... but at the same time you're squinting inside a cockpit trying to see things through a haze of ECM. You're not spotting minefields any better just because you've got 20/20 vision. So this is literally a whole SPA for "intuition".

Heavy Lifter​

Pilot can carry more weight that the maximum allowed by default.

Hi, kids! Do you like ignoring the 'Mech construction rules?!

So yeah. I could be extra-autistic and keep going, but a lot of these things make absolutely zero sense as MechWarrior/pilot abilities. It's like in their search for more rules and/or unique "customization" options beyond just Gunnery/Piloting skill, the writers lost sight of the fact that while Kai Allard-Liao and Victor Steiner-Davion fun characters to read about in the fiction, the BattleMechs should be the focus of the rules, not the squishies inside them.

 

[William Murderface]

It was, yes. That's my point.

Unfortunately, some people still try to argue that every 'Mech should be perfectly mechanically equal to all other 'Mechs no matter what its art says. For some reason, a good number of these people are also perfectly fine with SPAs that make no fucking sense because the "ability" in question relies on the machine, not the pilot. Like, just going through the list on Sarna and picking a few examples:


That one 100% depends on the 'Mech. There's no "bestial design" if you're driving a Victor. This is a design quirk, not a pilot skill.


Another thing that should rely on the 'Mech, not the MechWarrior. This one also goes completely against the mechanics of Cluster weapons. How does the pilot "taking aim" mean your self-guided missiles and your completely unguided LB-X shots hit the target? Another one that should be a design quirk.


This one isn't terrible, since an experienced/talented MechWarrior or even vehicle crew would have a keener eye for some things... but at the same time you're squinting inside a cockpit trying to see things through a haze of ECM. You're not spotting minefields any better just because you've got 20/20 vision. So this is literally a whole SPA for "intuition".


Hi, kids! Do you like ignoring the 'Mech construction rules?!

So yeah. I could be extra-autistic and keep going, but a lot of these things make absolutely zero sense as MechWarrior/pilot abilities. It's like in their search for more rules and/or unique "customization" options beyond just Gunnery/Piloting skill, the writers lost sight of the fact that while Kai Allard-Liao and Victor Steiner-Davion fun characters to read about in the fiction, the BattleMechs should be the focus of the rules, not the squishies inside them.

Not to mention that characters like VSD are the "Heroes" of the setting and so they should be able to do things mere mortals can't.

Think of it like Luke and Leia and Han don't get hit by Stormtroopers. Part of it is because the Stormies were ordered to let them escape from the Death Star so that Vader could track them back to the Rebel base, but part of it because they are the heroes, the movers and shakers of the setting.

Meanwhile, our characters are the poor Rebel troopers the Stormies go through like a hot knife through butter at the beginning of ANH and on Hoth.

Now, as a RPG mechanic or as something the end boss has, maybe, but as a normal table top mechanic? I'm glad they're optional, and I liked the unit flavoring they gave with them in the Field Manuals, but I'm not sold on them as a MechWarrior game mechanic outside of very rare characters, like VSD or Morgan Kell or someone.

 

[Moja Zemlja]

It was, yes. That's my point.

Unfortunately, some people still try to argue that every 'Mech should be perfectly mechanically equal to all other 'Mechs no matter what its art says. For some reason, a good number of these people are also perfectly fine with SPAs that make no fucking sense because the "ability" in question relies on the machine, not the pilot. Like, just going through the list on Sarna and picking a few examples:


That one 100% depends on the 'Mech. There's no "bestial design" if you're driving a Victor. This is a design quirk, not a pilot skill.


Another thing that should rely on the 'Mech, not the MechWarrior. This one also goes completely against the mechanics of Cluster weapons. How does the pilot "taking aim" mean your self-guided missiles and your completely unguided LB-X shots hit the target? Another one that should be a design quirk.


This one isn't terrible, since an experienced/talented MechWarrior or even vehicle crew would have a keener eye for some things... but at the same time you're squinting inside a cockpit trying to see things through a haze of ECM. You're not spotting minefields any better just because you've got 20/20 vision. So this is literally a whole SPA for "intuition".


Hi, kids! Do you like ignoring the 'Mech construction rules?!

So yeah. I could be extra-autistic and keep going, but a lot of these things make absolutely zero sense as MechWarrior/pilot abilities. It's like in their search for more rules and/or unique "customization" options beyond just Gunnery/Piloting skill, the writers lost sight of the fact that while Kai Allard-Liao and Victor Steiner-Davion fun characters to read about in the fiction, the BattleMechs should be the focus of the rules, not the squishies inside them.

I totally agree that most SPAs don't make sense from a logical stand point, like how does having autistic knowledge of battlemechs with Human TRO give you a +1 to determining crits? They're dumb RPG things that can be used to spice up a match or add extra flavour to a RPG character. I think it might be something we can agree to disagree on, end of the day they are entirely optional.

 

[William Murderface]

Agree to disagree? This is the Internet. If you don't agree with me I must destroy you!

Just kidding. I'm good with quirks, SPAs, and unit abilities being optional. I just wish they weren't so badly written from a fluff to TT standpoint is all.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I totally agree that most SPAs don't make sense from a logical stand point, like how does having autistic knowledge of battlemechs with Human TRO give you a +1 to determining crits? They're dumb RPG things that can be used to spice up a match or add extra flavour to a RPG character. I think it might be something we can agree to disagree on, end of the day they are entirely optional.

There's nothing to agree to disagree here, to be honest. I get what they're there for, and some of these make perfect sense. The 'Mech quirks in particular finally give some 'Mechs a reason to look so fucking weird.

So, I'm agreeing with @William Murderface: I'm glad these quirks, SPAs and all those things are optional. I just wish whoever came up with those thought "Battletech" instead of "Gundam" and designed the rules accordingly. BT lives and dies on its setting and the general "mundane, mass-manufactured war machines with soft gooey weak spots" feel for their giant stompy robots, and that needs to be very carefully preserved.

 

[William Murderface]

Today we took to the stars and broke out a good old fashioned naval battle between the FedSuns and Dracs set during the First Succession War. Both sides ended up beating each other to bits. It ended up as a draw set by the scenario our GM drew up.

It was kind of fun to do something besides just another 'Mech battle. Maybe, just maybe, I'll look into breaking out Succession Wars one weekend. The only thing with that game is making sure the FWL and CC player hate each other because if they team up it's easy to roll up the FS and LC players against the DC.

 

[Snekposter]

It was kind of fun to do something besides just another 'Mech battle. Maybe, just maybe, I'll look into breaking out Succession Wars one weekend. The only thing with that game is making sure the FWL and CC player hate each other because if they team up it's easy to roll up the FS and LC players against the DC.

Maybe you could make like ComStar and false-flag things so the two players wind up despising each other and are only willing to play just to see the other humiliated.

Why no, nothing can go wrong with such a genius plan, which is why ComStar adhered to it for centuries.

 

[William Murderface]

We'll probably just wait until we just have five players to do Succession Wars. I know the rules say it can be less than that, but unless you have five players each trying to win themselves it just turns into the DC/FWL/CC steamrolling the FS/LC because there is zero pressure to defend the FWL/CC border and you can use those units against the FS/LC.

 

[Balr0g]

So i got my copy of Dominions Divided and while I think that the premise for the "civil war" within the Dominion is plainly saying stupid the Dominion isn't exactly as strong as some have written here. on the last pages it says that the Bears lost nearly a third of their touman to the unrest. I would say that is a dent in their strengths esepcially if you have to replace said looses with green troops. Most interesting part is the closing with the Dominion invading the Combine (why is that a trend now closing the books with "And then they invaded x"?)

 

[William Murderface]

The reason I have trouble with the whole Dominions Divided ending is while the Bears have a bunch of green troops in their ranks, they won't stay green for long and are still the largest army in the area, have the superduperbattleship, end up joining the ilClan as Alaric's big stick. Meanwhile on one front they have the Horses who are too busy gobbling up what was left of the Falcon's holdings and on the other a Kurita army that totally collapsed on New Avalon and then got pushed back. They fight this devastating civil war, proving Alaric's critics right in the process, but by the end of the book all is forgiven and everything is hunky-dory in Bearland. Had the Bears ended up gutting themselves and the entire nation was falling apart at the seams and there would be no going back and their "we're one big family" lie was finally in the open and even those who supported Alaric were looking at what was left and saying out loud "well that wasn't worth it at all and Alaric can get bent" it would have been a much more satisfying ending, but that isn't what we got.

As for the "and then they invaded X" it's because it's a hook to buy the next book to get to the next chapter of an unfolding war. Personally, I'd rather they not take the approach and just stop at a natural stopping point, but I'm not in charge just like I wasn't in charge with the way the Jihad sourcebooks were written (mostly sidebars many of which ended up being incorrect later on).

 

[Balr0g]

The point is with the "And then they invaded has been just to much in the last books.Shattererd fortress had a good ending point with a bleak outlook. but from tamar rising onwards it seems to end with "and another invasion...and another one"

Yeah though the critics are still there. heck Omega galaxy and the Vega District still exist. And Hjalmar Miraborg staffed the council with his yes-men. I somehow expect that the Bears are like a smoldering powederkeg. Their invasion of the combine is something like a "unite against a common enemy" by conveniently ignoring they attacked first (and the Republic Wars showed that Rasalhagians are very miffed as soon as war crimes are comitted). Plus have you seen how close the Horses are to Rasalhague? The Bears can't risk everything lest someone rips into their Dominion. Some suspect the Horses are build up as a sort of opponent to use to unite the new Clan League as they are the only ones that told Alaric to fuck off and who knows maybe that's what we get next: a strike from the horses to shake the Bears to the core. Also 2 Leviathans can't cover everything and as the Blakists have proven you just need a couple of nukes to turn a Leviathan into scrap metal. Or do the Gundam thing with the Neue Ziel: crash something into stuff