Battletech - Also known as Trannytech

That's because they were foolishly designed assuming that the players would follow zellbrigen and always fight outnumbered.
I feel like this is a common issue game designers have. They build a system around how they play the game and then are shocked when the players don't do that. I do feel like intentially hobbled designs make sense for the Clans because, like you said, their warrior pride. Where's the honor in shitting on an inferior foe with a mech that has all the bells and whistles? It's even more maddening when you look at TRO:3050 and look at anything designed by the FWL. TPTB know how to do hobbled designs.

I might be in a minority but I am immensely interested in a lot of the non-mech based units in Battletech like the Zephyros or those power armor units. It kind of sucks whenever I catch a rare game in person I typically see the same giant robots and not a lot of the minor shit.

Imagine trying to drive a dune buggy versus things that can decimate cities.
There was a poster on the old Classic Battletech Forums who was known for taking everything but mechs and ruining people's days. But a lot of that involved having a group of players willing to use all the rules and things like off-map arty and air units. At least until Weirdo was banned from using some of them.
 
I might be in a minority but I am immensely interested in a lot of the non-mech based units in Battletech like the Zephyros or those power armor units. It kind of sucks whenever I catch a rare game in person I typically see the same giant robots and not a lot of the minor shit.

Imagine trying to drive a dune buggy versus things that can decimate cities.
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I feel like this is a common issue game designers have. They build a system around how they play the game and then are shocked when the players don't do that. I do feel like intentially hobbled designs make sense for the Clans because, like you said, their warrior pride. Where's the honor in shitting on an inferior foe with a mech that has all the bells and whistles?
It's definitely an issue, yeah. Thankfully, they wised up to it since. You'll notice that even new Clan equipment tends to be less a straight upgrade and more a sidegrade with significant downsides. And in some spots they even lose out against the Inner Sphere. I would not take a HAG over an Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle, for example.

It's even more maddening when you look at TRO:3050 and look at anything designed by the FWL. TPTB know how to do hobbled designs.
You know, sometimes I think about the Successor States' design stereotypes. You know, the Dracs love PPCs and zippy 'Mechs, the Davions hump autocannons, the Steiners have more tonnage than sense, the Liao need all the help they can get (Stealth, etc)... and then there's House Marik, who I'm pretty sure got saddled with "good intentions, terrible execution".
 
All praise the Suicide Sled.
It's definitely an issue, yeah. Thankfully, they wised up to it since. You'll notice that even new Clan equipment tends to be less a straight upgrade and more a sidegrade with significant downsides. And in some spots they even lose out against the Inner Sphere. I would not take a HAG over an Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle, for example.
Clan Heavy Lasers, not the improved versions, are probably my single favorite type of Clan weapon. There's something very Clan about "All the fire power, screw efficiency."

You know, sometimes I think about the Successor States' design stereotypes. You know, the Dracs love PPCs and zippy 'Mechs, the Davions hump autocannons, the Steiners have more tonnage than sense, the Liao need all the help they can get (Stealth, etc)... and then there's House Marik, who I'm pretty sure got saddled with "good intentions, terrible execution".
Only really in 3050 for mechs, their aerospace and warship design is WTF until 3145. Some of the better variants in 3025 era play are Marik ones, or they're at least usable. The Banshee-3M isn't the -S series, but it does the original's job better, for example. I guess FASA not understanding the role of the LGR plays into that too. It's a AC/10 replacement, aimed at lighter designs, not a Gauss Rifle replacement. The FWL didn't have any staff writers or even any freelancers until the mid aughts, maybe even into the 2010s. I know one of the freelance writers they brought on who did FWL stuff. Even if he's a filthy Marik-Stewart guy. Their main staff was always Fed Suns leaning, then Liao leaning.
 
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The Wolves have always been the favorite, although some of that may be the "Clan of Kerensky" thing. The Wolf Empire was pretty bullshit if you look at their specific designs. Like that Omni they have that's just a fast ER PPC carrier with stealth armor? That's some bullshit.

Edit:
I had to look it up just to remember how bad it was. The Wulfen is a 30 10/15 Omnimech, with a XXL engine mind, ECM suite, 104 points of Stealth armor. The A configuration runs 14 double heat sinks and a clan ER PPC. So, you have a unit that can move potentially 15 hexes, tag you with an ER PPC at range, and then gets all the bonuses from the movement and the stealth armor. I'm not entirely sure you're heat neutral, as I forget if XXLs generate extra heat, but you're not at that much risk of overheating.

I was thinking about it recently, I'm pretty sure you could have fixed the Clans if you'd forced them to build mechs like they were actually resource strapped and conscious. Standard engines unless you're a rare Totem Mech going to a Ristar or whatever. And cut the range on their pulse lasers to standard equivalent range. Would have fixed a lot of the issues with them initially, they'd still be better, but they wouldn't be stupid broken. Instead, the powers that be just keep giving them more stupid toys.
XXLs do generate extra heat (you gain heat standing still, and generate double normal heat from movement) and are extra bulky (4 critical slots in each torso, if I'm reading the Sarna entry right).

Keep in mind that the Clans of even 3049 might've been resource strapped to an extent, but after a century of stealing Inner Sphere territory, I don't think that's necessarily the case any more.
 
XXLs do generate extra heat (you gain heat standing still, and generate double normal heat from movement) and are extra bulky (4 critical slots in each torso, if I'm reading the Sarna entry right).

Keep in mind that the Clans of even 3049 might've been resource strapped to an extent, but after a century of stealing Inner Sphere territory, I don't think that's necessarily the case any more.
Trouble with that is the IS still doesn't have equivalent access to ClanTech even by the 3100's, even with Sea Fox selling shit to anyone with the money. So things are still one-sided, badly. And the ilClan stuff gets even worse when you think about the fact the Fidelis, the supercommandoes of the RotS, were from CSJ PoW's and oh, now CSJ is back because reasons.

And if we're talking absolutely horrid ASF designs...
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"Look how Lockheed massacred my boy," sobs Grumman.

That said I love the Ahab. Its an absurdity right out of Ace Combat with all the missiles it has. 2 LRM-20's and three tons of ammo each, and a pair of SRM-6's with two tons total. Load that sucker up with Swarm LRMs and you've got an MMM on your hands.
 
And the ilClan stuff gets even worse when you think about the fact the Fidelis, the supercommandoes of the RotS, were from CSJ PoW's and oh, now CSJ is back because reasons.
Probably because the writers realized they're running out of non-assimilated Clans in the Inner Sphere. Between the Raven Alliance, the Scorpion Empire, the Rasalhague Dominion, and all the absorptions and annihilations, they were running a little thin on honor-obsessed pod-born assholes.

And if we're talking absolutely horrid ASF designs...

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"Look how Lockheed massacred my boy," sobs Grumman.

That said I love the Ahab. Its an absurdity right out of Ace Combat with all the missiles it has. 2 LRM-20's and three tons of ammo each, and a pair of SRM-6's with two tons total. Load that sucker up with Swarm LRMs and you've got an MMM on your hands.
AeroSpace fighters (and often VTOLs as well) look fuck-ugly half the time because while there are many form-factors for walking robots, there are only so many ways you can draw an aerodynamic shape that still looks distinct and some of the artists they hired for it just weren't really good at it.

My favorite is still the Rogue, though.
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So many things look wrong, but above all: look at those LRM 15 boxes. Who needs aerodynamics when you can have built-in turbulence generators just ahead of your lifting surfaces? Even the fluff makes mention how how much the thing is just a Zero-G flying brick.
 
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XXLs do generate extra heat (you gain heat standing still, and generate double normal heat from movement) and are extra bulky (4 critical slots in each torso, if I'm reading the Sarna entry right).
I thought as much. Still the Wulfen can spend a turn or two shooting from range, and then turn off the stealth armor and break LOS for a turn. It's not perfect, but I can feel the frustration in having to deal with it.
Keep in mind that the Clans of even 3049 might've been resource strapped to an extent, but after a century of stealing Inner Sphere territory, I don't think that's necessarily the case any more.
It doesn't really matter as much any more, I agree. At least the more settled ones, for as much as the Wolf Empire just rolls people, it's really the Bears everyone should fear, they've been holding and developing that territory for longer than most, the Wolves have had to move multiple times and the Falcons are retarded.
 
I suspect the ilClan era is an attempt to bridge the IS/Clan tech divide. We'll see how it goes.

And as far as 'infuriating designs' goes, I still hold a grudge against improved jump jet designs.
 
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101 pages, one for each year Alexandr Kerensky graced the Inner Sphere with his dutiful, loyal and meticulous genius.

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Unfortunately, big fucking spaceship radiators tend to be extremely fragile, which makes the whole concept of WarShips hard to excuse.
Well, you could argue that those WarShips use some advanced future space magic that works with much more compact and sturdy radiatiors tucked away partially along the hull.

On the other hand, you could just fluff it in a way that during combat, WarShips fold up their fragile radiators and instead use some internal system to dump heat for some time, before that system gets overwhelmed by the excess heat of the reactor.
Then there's the option to remove heat by having coolant flow past the reactor and then just dumping that overboard from time to time.

Of course, all this means is that WarShips live on borrowed time during combat and can only engage for a short duration before parts of the engineering section start to melt.
Would make for a neat system tbh.

Also, can't remember which sci-fi-setting it was, but I remember ships extending their radiators during battle was akin to raising a white flag to surrender. BT could take a few notes here.
 
I suspect the ilClan era is an attempt to bridge the IS/Clan tech divide. We'll see how it goes.

And as far as 'infuriating designs' goes, I still hold a grudge against improved jump jet designs.
Speaking of infuriating things, my own grudge is with how many things are called "improved X" these days. It's an artifact of the game never retiring equipment since all eras must be playable at all times, but it feels so fucking stupid when you see a 'Mech with half its loadout being labeled "improved whatever".

If you can't think of an original name for whatever variant of some equipment you're creating, at least do it like the X-Pulse and Re-Engineered Lasers and tack on a unique word to their name.

Well, you could argue that those WarShips use some advanced future space magic that works with much more compact and sturdy radiatiors tucked away partially along the hull.

On the other hand, you could just fluff it in a way that during combat, WarShips fold up their fragile radiators and instead use some internal system to dump heat for some time, before that system gets overwhelmed by the excess heat of the reactor.
Then there's the option to remove heat by having coolant flow past the reactor and then just dumping that overboard from time to time.

Of course, all this means is that WarShips live on borrowed time during combat and can only engage for a short duration before parts of the engineering section start to melt.
Would make for a neat system tbh.

Also, can't remember which sci-fi-setting it was, but I remember ships extending their radiators during battle was akin to raising a white flag to surrender. BT could take a few notes here.
I would argue that BattleTech would be much better served focusing on what it does best and what its players and fans are most interested in: ground battles (including air assets). Space warfare, particularly hard sci-fi space warfare, can be a fantastic subject for a boardgame. Unfortunately, BattleTech does not make it justice in terms of rules or fluff.

Rules-wise, they tried to apply the same principles from 'Mech and ASF combat to DropShips, JumpShips and WarShips, and it just doesn't work. Once you have a vehicle that large, you're really worrying a lot more about having internal systems destroyed piecemeal (and thus relying a lot more on redundancy) than you are worrying about ablative armor and through-armor crits. The rules in Strategic Operations are an order of magnitude more autistic than the default rules, meaning that you might as well be playing a space battle in real time by the time you're done calculating and noting down everything for a single weapon being fired. And, of course, for practical reasons the game must be played on a 2D plane and that pretty much invalidates any attempt at realism in space combat.

Lore-wise, space is and will always be the final word in higher ground when it comes to hard sci-fi. Once you have ships that can perform orbital bombardment (in BT that's anything with Naval-class weapons), ground combat becomes a matter of pin-point police actions instead of army-on-army clashes. There's a reason WarShips were already extinct during BattleTech's early days: with JumpShips being glorified space ferries and too valuable to risk in combat, DropShips were the largest fighting units available. And while DropShips could be ridiculously well-armed (and effectively serve as Final Bosses for ground campaigns), they still used the same weapons as 'Mechs, so they couldn't just stay in orbit and shell things. So you needed boots on the ground unless you were getting really creative with dropping rocks from orbit. The entire set-up was designed to allow for ground combat to flourish, including the Ares Conventions and the Succession Wars telling everybody that just bombing shit indiscriminately resulted in everybody having a bad time. The return of the Clans and their shiny WarShips indirectly caused that element of the setting to completely break down but FASA and everybody else since very pointedly ignored it because it's a game about stompy robots and they can't afford to let logic get in the way of that.

In short, the less space combat there is in BattleTech, the better. I don't like that either, I love hard sci-fi spaceships, but the setting is just not meant for them. No matter how much they try to shimmy them in without disturbing the other elements already in place like a weird game of Jenga, WarShips are better served as background elements and left as vague as possible.
 
Probably because the writers realized they're running out of non-assimilated Clans in the Inner Sphere. Between the Raven Alliance, the Scorpion Empire, the Rasalhague Dominion, and all the absorptions and annihilations, they were running a little thin on honor-obsessed pod-born assholes.
I would love to see mechs being pumped out by these new factions that mixed the good shit of both the IS and Clan Tech.
 
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So it seems Tex of the Black Pants Legion, among others, is offering outreach to 40k fans in the wake of GW deciding they hate anything fan-generated.

This is going to be amusing. I would love to see Battletech start shaving playerbase away from G-Dubs.
 
So it seems Tex of the Black Pants Legion, among others, is offering outreach to 40k fans in the wake of GW deciding they hate anything fan-generated.

This is going to be amusing. I would love to see Battletech start shaving playerbase away from G-Dubs.
The price difference and Tex's videos is what got me to look into the tabletop game
 
The price difference and Tex's videos is what got me to look into the tabletop game
I still kick myself every now and then for not buying that $20 anniversary set they had a few years ago with a full lance and the manuals and data sheets necessary for play. Hell of a better deal than 40k where $20 gets you... half a squad.
 
I still kick myself every now and then for not buying that $20 anniversary set they had a few years ago with a full lance and the manuals and data sheets necessary for play. Hell of a better deal than 40k where $20 gets you... half a squad.
Ditto. I got into 40k just when people were complaining about the price hikes in 4th edition, but didn't mind it too much because I could afford it. Now it's just retarded. Yeah, the models look great and thank God they killed off Finecast, but GW can fuck right off with their prices now and their attitude towards fans. Even my local game store hates their prices now, and he already hated dealing with their shipping group before the WuFlu.
 
I feel the spaceship/aerotech design was always a bit subpar in BT.
Many great designs for mechs and tanks, but anything that flies has a decent chance to look wonky. For instance, I'd love to see more spin-gravity rings on ships. It's one of the best aspects of HBS' design for the Argo, it's a great concept to have folding spin-gravity-decks. it just makes a lot of sense.

Spaceships in BT should have giant radiators here and there, maybe ones that fold and get stored during jumps and combat, but a setting that's as hard-sci-fi as BT should have kept an eye on believable heat management on its spaceships.
DropShips don't typically have spin rings because they don't really have a need for them. Unless you're on an extended series of jumps, almost all of your time onboard is going to be spent either on-planet or under 1g thrust to or away from it. The Argo, however, was designed to serve as a mobile space station, so spin gravity functionality was included.

As for radiators, what do you think those giant fins on the McKenna class are?
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DropShips don't typically have spin rings because they don't really have a need for them. Unless you're on an extended series of jumps, almost all of your time onboard is going to be spent either on-planet or under 1g thrust to or away from it. The Argo, however, was designed to serve as a mobile space station, so spin gravity functionality was included.
The Argo was also clearly originally meant to be jump-capable and carry the Leopard as its actual dropship, but that got nixed in development when the implications of such were realized (hint: "ComStar would like to know your location"). So they reworked it into a "dropship". Seriously, you can't fit that size in just 97,000 tons. That's why it has that KF-physics breaking one-of-a-kind Multiple Docking Collar System. I would not take it as evidence of how things are done in BT, because even if it's canon it's a ridiculously experimental prototype.

As for radiators, what do you think those giant fins on the McKenna class are?

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They are nowhere near large enough to be radiators, unfortunately. They look to me like "the artist wanted some vertical elements and didn't know what to put in there" objects, because they look like atmospheric wings with control surfaces on the trailing edge.
 
DropShips don't typically have spin rings because they don't really have a need for them. Unless you're on an extended series of jumps, almost all of your time onboard is going to be spent either on-planet or under 1g thrust to or away from it. The Argo, however, was designed to serve as a mobile space station, so spin gravity functionality was included.
Yeah, but Warships have massively undersized internal spin-gravity decks (those ships would be vomit-comets) and JumpShips who spend their entire existence at like .1G acceleration could direly need some big gravity decks.

As for radiators, what do you think those giant fins on the McKenna class are?
McKenna_exodus.PNG
Some shipclasses have very pronounced fins that are supposed to be radiators, sure.

And then there's a couple of others like these:
Kyushu.gifKirishima.gifCongress_TRO2750.jpgDavionDD.JPGFox_3057.jpgAegis.gif

There are some parts that might be radiators... and frankly, if they go with a design like Elite: Dangerous,
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I wouldn't mind that at all as radiators during combat with big foldy ones being used when not in danger.

Either way, it's not purely about radiators or spin-gravity wheels. I overall just don't like the design for ships in BT that much. The Union and Overlord dropships look neat, so do a couple aerodynamic dropships, but most other ships, be that dropship, warship or jumpship, just doesn't do it for me.
Similarly with aerofights like I said earler. I kinda dig some designs, but most are just not my cup of tea.

I guess BT should have taken some designs from 80s anime, like they did for Mech designs... like Legend of the Galactic Heroes has a neat aesthetic.
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I mean, no radiators, but the ships look better...

The Argo was also clearly originally meant to be jump-capable and carry the Leopard as its actual dropship, but that got nixed in development when the implications of such were realized (hint: "ComStar would like to know your location").
Oh lord...

If the Argo was actually jump-capable, ComStar would nuke that fucker and then nuke the expanding cloud of superheated atoms again, just to be sure.
The common idea seems to be that ComStar can't allow the ship to exist just under the assumption there might be a tiny scrap of paper with coordinates to a Castle Brian on there somewhere or a blueprint for some LosTech shenanigans. If it carried a compact KF drive, there's absolutely no argument whether ComStar would go ALL GAS NO BRAKES or not.
 
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