Better Call Saul

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

I think they deserve a mildly happy ending together.

I don't think this is going to be one of those settings, Much like how Walter's arrogance cost him everything..I don't think Jimmy's inability to accept who and what he is will end happily.

 

[Bender]

I don't think this is going to be one of those settings

I should've used the term "bittersweet ending", my bad.

I think Jimmy's inability to accept who and what he is will end happily.

Pretty sure you flubbed "will" and "won't" there, so I'll carry on as if you had.

I hope you're wrong, but I think you're right. He's chased off Howard's job offer by doing a couple of petty things. I really don't think he's gotten over Chuck's death in the slightest, and now he even seems to be going out of his way to behave as Chuck thought he would. If anyone's the catalyst for the change I'd say it's Chuck, not Kim, because Chuck never gave Saul a chance, and he did everything in his power to keep Saul down. Taking jobs from the cartel makes me think he might be trying to give another middle finger to Chuck. Like "I left elder law because of you, and now I'm doing this, are you proud now?"

Much like how Walter's arrogance cost him everything.

IMO, Walt realised what his arrogance cost him when he saw that news report in Granite State. He knew it could all have been stopped back in S1, but he didn't accept the money for his cancer treatment out of pride and arrogance. HE was the head of the family, HE was gonna provide for them and HE is gonna be the one they thank and respect. That's how I see it, at least.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Pretty sure you flubbed "will" and "won't" there, so I'll carry on as if you had.

There shouldn't have been a don't in there, fixed.

He's chased off Howard's job offer by doing a couple of petty things. I really don't think he's gotten over Chuck's death in the slightest, and now he even seems to be going out of his way to behave as Chuck thought he would. If anyone's the catalyst for the change I'd say it's Chuck, not Kim, because Chuck never gave Saul a chance, and he did everything in his power to keep Saul down. Taking jobs from the cartel makes me think he might be trying to give another middle finger to Chuck. Like "I left elder law because of you, and now I'm doing this, are you proud now?

Oh there is some of that too, he is going a bit too far in the "Bad Person." side of the pendulum. Jimmy is a good person at heart, but he has a specific skill set, that of a Con Man. Now that means he could be a great legit lawyer, he is good with people and is 100% willing to work hard for it, he worked in the mail room and earned his law degree. Then Chuck cockblocked him for years letting Jimmy think it was Howard.

If Chuck had let Jimmy be a laywer and kept an eye on him, kept him on the straight and narrow Jimmy could have gone straight. Now he made the Saul Goodman personality as a way to cut himself off from his Good if Flawed nature to revel in the flawed parts of his personality, by the end of it eventually the Mask of Saul will be all that is left of Jimmy. Much like how in some versions of Batman..Bruce Wayne eventually becomes the mask that The Batman puts on. I think whatever happens with/to Kim will be what pushes him off that ledge.

IMO, Walt realised what his arrogance cost him when he saw that news report in Granite State. He knew it could all have been stopped back in S1, but he didn't accept the money for his cancer treatment out of pride and arrogance. HE was the head of the family, HE was gonna provide for them and HE is gonna be the one they thank and respect. That's how I see it, at least.

Oh yes, but Walt's arrogance wasn't just in Season 1. When he started working with Gus had he just kept to the deal of "teach the new guy the way then retire." and not betrayed Gus. But Walt couldn't have that, he couldn't ever have anyone "being better than he was".

 

[Bender]

Oh there is some of that too, he is going a bit too far in the "Bad Person." side of the pendulum. Jimmy is a good person at heart, but he has a specific skill set, that of a Con Man. Now that means he could be a great legit lawyer, he is good with people and is 100% willing to work hard for it, he worked in the mail room and earned his law degree. Then Chuck cockblocked him for years letting Jimmy think it was Howard.

If Chuck had let Jimmy be a laywer and kept an eye on him, kept him on the straight and narrow Jimmy could have gone straight. Now he made the Saul Goodman personality as a way to cut himself off from his Good if Flawed nature to revel in the flawed parts of his personality, by the end of it eventually the Mask of Saul will be all that is left of Jimmy. Much like how in some versions of Batman..Bruce Wayne eventually becomes the mask that The Batman puts on. I think whatever happens with/to Kim will be what pushes him off that ledge.

It honestly does look like Chuck forced him into it, IMO. The times he was so critical about everything, telling HHM not to give him a job, I'm pretty sure he even tried to take the Sandpiper case away, even though Saul was the reason the whole case existed.
(I may be wrong about that)

Oh yes, but Walt's arrogance wasn't just in Season 1. When he started working with Gus had he just kept to the deal of "teach the new guy the way then retire." and not betrayed Gus. But Walt couldn't have that, he couldn't ever have anyone "being better than he was".

He started his arrogance way before then, as I mentioned in a previous post it was the "Stay out of my territory" moment that clued me in he was in it for the power. His continual exploitation of Jessie and allowing Jane to die surely count too. He didn't want to be manipulated by anyone, so he let her die and then used her death as a warning to Jessie.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

He started his arrogance way before then, as I mentioned in a previous post it was the "Stay out of my territory" moment that clued me in he was in it for the power. His continual exploitation of Jessie and allowing Jane to die surely count too. He didn't want to be manipulated by anyone, so he let her die and then used her death as a warning to Jessie.

Oh it started way before then, but it was a continual thing, every mistake he made was because of his pride.

 

[Bender]

Oh it started way before then, but it was a continual thing, every mistake he made was because of his pride.

I agree. All he had to do to get a happy ending was just work for Gus until Jessie learnt his cooking method.

 

[KillThemCrackasBabies]

It honestly does look like Chuck forced him into it, IMO. The times he was so critical about everything, telling HHM not to give him a job, I'm pretty sure he even tried to take the Sandpiper case away, even though Saul was the reason the whole case existed.

Chuck was very happy to see Jimmy take "honest" PD work and not get too eager to go grabbing for big money work before paying his dues, as it were. Also remember that Jimmy's first idea to swing above his weight class was to trick the Kettlemans into being grateful to him, and thus hiring him, by throwing a couple of retarded skateboarders through their windshield and just hope it panned out. Which it didn't.

 

[CWCissey]

I agree. All he had to do to get a happy ending was just work for Gus until Jessie learnt his cooking method.

Gail.

Gus wanted Walt to teach Gail.

 

[Bender]

Gail.

Gus wanted Walt to teach Gail.

Oops, typed the wrong name.

 

[AnOminous]

Gail.

Gus wanted Walt to teach Gail.

Gus wanted Walt to teach Gale, so that he could then kill Walt.

 

[Bender]

Gus wanted Walt to teach Gale, so that he could then kill Walt.

Only because Walt was reckless and impulsive, as demonstrated when he killed those two dealers in public. If he hadn't have done that Gus wouldn't have been looking to replace him.

 

[AnOminous]

Only because Walt was reckless and impulsive, as demonstrated when he killed those two dealers in public. If he hadn't have done that Gus wouldn't have been looking to replace him.

If he hadn't done that, Jesse would have been killed right there and then.

 

[Bender]

If he hadn't done that, Jesse would have been killed right there and then.

There are other ways he could've dealt with it. He could've just swung by and run into Jesse slow enough to knock him over and tell him to get in the car, Jesse was pretty obedient to Walt at that point, IIRC. Instead he decided to straight-up murder two people. It's not like they'd shoot at Walt, he had Gus' protection and they were Gus' men.

 

[AnOminous]

There are other ways he could've dealt with it. He could've just swung by and run into Jesse slow enough to knock him over and tell him to get in the car, Jesse was pretty obedient to Walt at that point, IIRC. Instead he decided to straight-up murder two people. It's not like they'd shoot at Walt, he had Gus' protection and they were Gus' men.

And then Jesse goes and does it again. Murdering a kid is the one thing he would always go against Walt on.

 

[Bender]

And then Jesse goes and does it again. Murdering a kid is the one thing he would always go against Walt on.

I think Mike's talk about "good criminals and bad cops, bad priests, honourable thieves" in BCS certainly applies to Jesse, but Jesse being a "good criminal" caused (sometimes directly, mostly indirectly) a good bunch of the problems they encountered.

 

[AnOminous]

I think Mike's talk about "good criminals and bad cops, bad priests, honourable thieves" in BCS certainly applies to Jesse, but Jesse being a "good criminal" caused (sometimes directly, mostly indirectly) a good bunch of the problems they encountered.

Mike blamed Walt for everything that happened with Gus but their problems really started with Jesse. Those two pieces of shit really had it coming though. Gus should have been angry at them, not Walt and Jesse.

 

[Bender]

Mike blamed Walt for everything that happened with Gus but their problems really started with Jesse. Those two pieces of shit really had it coming though. Gus should have been angry at them, not Walt and Jesse.

"Are you asking me if I ordered the murder of a child?"
He broke out of his calm demeanour and sounded genuinely pissed off when he said that, so maybe the alternative resolution could have been to intercept Jesse, drag him over to Gus, explain what happened and let him deal with it, instead of killing his men.

inb4 "I will murder your infant daughter", that was different.

 

[KillThemCrackasBabies]

inb4 "I will murder your infant daughter", that was different.

Yeah that's the same thing when people do the "But he said fear wasn't an effective motivator!" argument, the situation was completely different. I feel like Gus would have children killed the same way he killed Victor; he didn't go around slaughtering his henchman willy nilly, but if it came down to it and he thought that's what needed to be done, it was getting done. He never told the dealers to shoot Thomas, but if he was wiping out Walt's family, meh, gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[AnOminous]

He never told the dealers to shoot Thomas, but if he was wiping out Walt's family, meh, gotta do what you gotta do.

He'd have no particular reason to wipe out Walt's family if Walt was dead, but he knew Walt was so fucking nuts just threatening to kill him wasn't going to get him to comply.

 

[Bender]

The alternative explanation is that Gus was feigning outrage and didn’t really give a shit if kids were killed or used as drug mules. His story of the coati and his mysterious past with Pinochet’s government indicate Gus likely didn’t care. He was content letting street dealers do whatever so long as there was no blowback on him or the distribution network.

I'd assume a kid getting shot to death in public would cause an investigation that Gus would prefer to avoid, Walt and Jesse likely could've gotten them killed by Gus instead of doing it themselves.