Better Call Saul

Howard dying was a kind-of last minute decision by the writers, but Howard killing himself would have been retarded. Lalo killing him makes Kim realize how far they went ruining him and show the difference between how Jimmy just gets on with his life whereas she can't. It's extreme and I get not liking it, but it makes sense.
 
I will agree Lalo killing him sort of neuters the conclusion of this storyline, but it would never have been satisfying to see Jimmy "called out" for fucking with Howard. You're not a media literate genius for realizing that what Jimmy was doing was wrong, that feeling of discomfort the Howard plot creates when you're watching it was deliberate.
But I'm not feeling discomfort, I'm feeling unsatisfaction at what I consider an unresolved/unfinished plot thread.
 
Howard dying was a kind-of last minute decision by the writers, but Howard killing himself would have been retarded. Lalo killing him makes Kim realize how far they went ruining him and show the difference between how Jimmy just gets on with his life whereas she can't. It's extreme and I get not liking it, but it makes sense.
Howard killing himself literally accomplishes the exact same thing, except it doesn't involve Lalo doing something stupid and it pushes Kim to her breaking point harder because she is indirectly at fault for it.

It makes MORE sense to do it that way and accomplishes what the writers were going for BETTER. There really isn't a sane argument against it.
 
Did we watch the same show? The whole Howard subplot is, to my interpretation, about the breakdown of the relationship between Kim and Jimmy. Whose idea is it to ruin Howard's life? Kim. How did Jimmy treat Howard prior to that? He was rude to him, he retaliated against him when he felt insulted, but he never sought him out to instigate anything.
Before it all broke down, Jimmy was almost servile to Chuck. He clearly loved him, and unlike almost anyone in his life, he went out of his way to help him, despite his insanity, and refused any compensation for it. He became a lawyer because he actually wanted to follow in what he thought was his better brother's footsteps.

He had legitimate regrets, because despite being an absolute fuckup and being possibly responsible for the failure of his father's business, because he stole from it, he was still his parents' favorite son, something Howard went to his grave intensely bitter about.

He always thought Howard was the one who actually sabotaged his legal career. Somehow, out of pure irrationality, he carried this grudge even after finding out it was actually Chuck who stabbed him in the back and sabotaged his career, because he couldn't cope with the fuckup brother (but still parental favorite) becoming a lawyer like he was.

Howard was a decent guy, and did not deserve what happened, not just the unpredictable murder but actually being maliciously defamed after he was dead.

Something I love about these Gilligan shows is everything a character does is in conformity with their nature. BCS fucked this up in the last couple episodes.
Howard killing himself literally accomplishes the exact same thing, except it doesn't involve Lalo doing something stupid and it pushes Kim to her breaking point harder because she is indirectly at fault for it.
Just casually shooting someone to start a conversation is exactly what Lalo would do. The only good character introduced near the end.
 
Howard dying was a kind-of last minute decision by the writers, but Howard killing himself would have been retarded. Lalo killing him makes Kim realize how far they went ruining him and show the difference between how Jimmy just gets on with his life whereas she can't. It's extreme and I get not liking it, but it makes sense.
Howard is very clearly depressed, even talks Jimmy about it, and his company isn't going well. They were going to go with that angle until they decided that the brilliant idea of burying them under the lab would make redditors clap like seals.
 
Honestly, not that much work would have been required and I think it would have been FAR better than what we got.

Instead of hamfisting in the nazi gang that through inexplicable coincidences Walt manages to get in contact with (I am tired of people saying the Nazi gang was not terribly written, it was), you have Lalo make contact with Walt as he is trying to figure out who killed his boss/family and Walt promises them Mikes head in exchange for killing all prisoners who are about to blow the whistle on him.
Well the nazis came in because Todd was related to them, but the issue is that you have Gus telling Hector that all of his male relatives are now dead, plus the other dons which means Gus is now in charge of their organization. Where would Lalo come from? Because it would be out of character for Gus to miss someone.

Also, my assumption was Vince was worried that doing yet another pissed off Mexican villain was going to get repetitive and tried to go a different direction. I personally think it was fine, but we can disagree.
Lalo killing howard isn't necessarily meant to contribute to howard's story, it's there to make lalo feel far more dangerous.
Also to shock the audience before the mid-season break and get them talking about it. Free publicity.
 
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Also, my assumption was Vince was worried that doing yet another pissed off Mexican villain was going to get repetitive and tried to go a different direction. I personally think it was fine, but we can disagree.
Lalo was my favorite of the new characters you know are doomed because if they were around in BB they'd still be doing things. He's also my favorite of the Salamancas, but he had to die.
 
AnOminous said:
He always thought Howard was the one who actually sabotaged his legal career. Somehow, out of pure irrationality, he carried this grudge even after finding out it was actually Chuck who stabbed him in the back and sabotaged his career, because he couldn't cope with the fuckup brother (but still parental favorite) becoming a lawyer like he was.
I don't know, howard might not have been directly responsible for chucks sabotaging his career but he went along with it and allowed it to happen and didn't tell jimmy what was really going on. So he has some degree of responsibility for it
 
I don't know, howard might not have been directly responsible for chucks sabotaging his career but he went along with it and allowed it to happen and didn't tell jimmy what was really going on. So he has some degree of responsibility for it
Chuck wasn't driven by just being mental. He did have a point in that Jimmy has a good heart, but at that heart he's still a crook and could very dangerous. And he was right.
Makes it all more dramatic.
 
Chuck wasn't driven by just being mental. He did have a point in that Jimmy has a good heart, but at that heart he's still a crook and could very dangerous. And he was right.
Makes it all more dramatic.
I didn't say he wasn't right. He was, i'm just saying it wasn't just him and that howard willingly went along with it. It wasn't ethical for either of them, particularly given both howard and chucks obsession with ethics and legality. That aside, I suspect chucks mental issues were a subconscious way of punishing himself for fucking with jimmy and violating his own ethics. The problems started not long after jimmy became a lawyer and chuck started having issues with it and doing what he did to sabotage him
 
Chuck wasn't driven by just being mental. He did have a point in that Jimmy has a good heart, but at that heart he's still a crook and could very dangerous. And he was right. Makes it all more dramatic.
Chuck was also a huge liar and immoral. The "letter versus spirit of the law" type of person. Where he would lie and sabotage people but it was for the greater good and technically within legal bounds. Sabotaging Kim's career just to spite Jimmy was insanely unethical and likely illegal workplace harassment. But he would beat her in court because he knew the system if she sued him, so he feels justified in his actions as he could use legal jargon to exonerate himself.

Chuck also lies to Jimmy about their mother's last words out of pure spite. He can lie anywhere but a courtroom. He was not a sympathetic character.
I didn't say he wasn't right. He was, i'm just saying it wasn't just him and that howard willingly went along with it. It wasn't ethical for either of them, particularly given both howard and chucks obsession with ethics and legality.
Neither of them were obsessed with being ethical. Howard is a corporate business lawyer who wants to keep the firm because of his father's legacy. Chuck is an egomaniac who was practicing high profile cases to make himself famous. He only stops becoming a prominent lawyer due to his divorce. Chuck was an attorney that would hold press conferences and give speeches which is why every lawyer immediately recognizes his name. Once his mental issues crop up he can no longer appear in public (or practice law).
That aside, I suspect chucks mental issues were a subconscious way of punishing himself for fucking with jimmy and violating his own ethics. The problems started not long after jimmy became a lawyer and chuck started having issues with it and doing what he did to sabotage him
His electrical signals allergies came from his breakdown of his marriage. Their separation and divorce despite being hugely critical components of Chuck's story are never explained to the audience. His 'allergies' actually helped him bond with Jimmy and Howard. As they were the only people he trusted initially to visit his home and see him in his total mentally defeated state. When his wife visited him after his breakdown he actually has Jimmy there with him for moral support and to help rationalize the power being off to the house because he trusts Jimmy to entertain his mental illness and pretend along with him.
 
I will say, the last season sort of started to fall apart and I think it was a combination of burn out and low ratings on the other shows that were in the BB universe. El Camino felt like a foot note, feel good sort. Slippin' Jimmy I just don't take seriously as I'm nearly certain the Z team was hired to write that one.

I liked Lalo as a character but I did feel they could have planned it for Lalo to die near the end of the season. I appreciate they continued the story line with post BB Jimmy, however, they could have just left the taxi driver plot die and make something else. Like the Taxi driver tipped off some sicario types or even law enforcement which leads to the arrest. It would result in the same bookend where Jimmy no longer runs from his problems. It's also amazing that the show's been off the air for almost two years and we are still talking about it.
 
I didn't say he wasn't right. He was, i'm just saying it wasn't just him and that howard willingly went along with it.
But that's the thing. You got Chuck, big smart brain with mad respect and he tells Howard that they need to stop Jim or else he'll burn the whole world if he becomes a lawyer and Howard agrees to take the bullet not out of spite or evil against Jim personaly, but to help Chuck, whose always right, who Howard owes his entire life to. And to save the world.
It wasn't ethical for either of them,
In their eyes it was. Also recall this is a show about lawyers.
particularly given both howard and chucks obsession with ethics and legality.
Which they sought to protect because they knew Jim would take a massive shit on those in his career eventually.
Strange stance to blame Chuck and Howard for not being absolutist moralists, remind this show is about lawyers, when their whole goal was to stop Jim from being an absolute amoralist and make an absolute mockery of the law far worse than they could ever do.
That aside, I suspect chucks mental issues were a subconscious way of punishing himself for fucking with jimmy and violating his own ethics.
I really don't see that. Chuck's condition is some bizzare random bullshit, but I really doubt that at any point he regretted fucking up Jim's career. Only time he might have regretted it is before his death.
The problems started not long after jimmy became a lawyer and chuck started having issues with it and doing what he did to sabotage him
I got the impression the shit started because his wife left him. Would be an interesting point if he was so fucking scared of Jim becoming the lawyer of evil, that it caused him massive panic and anxiety and it fucked his brain so much. Still don't think he regretted doing what he did.
Howard most absolutely did not regret shit, not after Jim and Kim destroyed his life. Howard knew for sure Chuck was right about Jim in the end.

TheHarbinger

Chuck was also a huge liar and immoral.
No he wasn't. He was a lawyer lol
The "letter versus spirit of the law" type of person. Where he would lie and sabotage people but it was for the greater good and technically within legal bounds. Sabotaging Kim's career just to spite Jimmy was insanely unethical and likely illegal workplace harassment. But he would beat her in court because he knew the system if she sued him, so he feels justified in his actions as he could use legal jargon to exonerate himself.
And he was right. Kim losing her fucking shit on a bus proves it. Chuck absolutely knew how toxic Jim was beyond Jim's own control and he did all he could to push Jim out of it.
If Chuck was a massive piece of shit, he could have left Jim to rot in the can.
Chuck also lies to Jimmy about their mother's last words out of pure spite. He can lie anywhere but a courtroom. He was not a sympathetic character.
Chuck did everything right in his life, while Jim was a piece of shit kid. No shit Chuck would be spiteful of Jim because mom loved the thieving younger son who was funny. It was definitely spiteful, but nowhere near the monstrous shit that Jim turned out capable of doing.
 
Chuck did everything right in his life, while Jim was a piece of shit kid.
Are all Better Call Saul fans retarded? A guy who alienated everyone and killed himself and had a fake electricity allergy...."did everything right"? Look out everyone, Mr. Contrarian is here, move over. By the end of the show everyone recognizes that Chuck was insane and needed to be locked up or have a guardian around him at all times.

You probably take this show more seriously than the writers and producers did. By the last season they didn't even care anymore.
 
Mr. Contrarian is here, move over.
I thought the writers made it very clear that Chuck's mental disorder was tied very closely with Jimmy. Heck, I'd wager we see similar sort of mental disorders in the perpetual victim types on X and other social media sites. The character had a superiority complex that more than likely stemmed out of spite, especially toward Jimmy. He may have also had a neuroticism and a need for supremacy/control over situations. I'd wager we see the majority of the later as Chuck was always calm and collected until he was out of control of the situation like in Chicanery and the forgery arc.
 
But that's the thing. You got Chuck, big smart brain with mad respect and he tells Howard that they need to stop Jim or else he'll burn the whole world if he becomes a lawyer and Howard agrees to take the bullet not out of spite or evil against Jim personaly, but to help Chuck, whose always right, who Howard owes his entire life to. And to save the world.
And then Jimmy doesn't get stopped and does indeed burn down the world.
 
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And then Jimmy doesn't get stopped and does indeed burn down the world.
Every person is born with a potential height that they may never reach without adequate nutrition and a healthy environment. Jimmy's descent into being a terrible person was heavily fed into by Chuck's decisions.

The show heavily leans into the theme of the banality of evil. Chuck was arguably a very horrible person acting within the framework of the law, while Jimmy was some pitiful errand boy who strived to be a lawyer, and when he became a lawyer, he was a good person acting outside of the framework of the law. Evil doesn't come from any special quality in people, and any sane, morally decent person can be driven to do awful things.

Relating to that, Chuck being a petty fuck has a large part of the blame for the events that happen later with his antagonism towards his little brother. It's all a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
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Sabotaging Kim's career just to spite Jimmy was insanely unethical and likely illegal workplace harassment.
Kim recommended Jimmy despite knowing he was an unreliably volatile loose cannon purely because she was fucking him, and because she did that, Jimmy ended up causing reputational damage to the firm she recommended him at.

Nothing about her punishment was unjust.
 
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