BG3 rant with spoilers, don't click if you don't want spoilers

[Rick Nekieta]

I just want to say that there is no end to how much I loathe the resolution of Sarevok's story in BG3.

Throne of Bhaal blew my mind with how they did Sarevok. I took him in my party on the presumption he would betray me. I was looking forward to his heel turn moment so I could squash him again. Much to my surprise, our philosophical exchanges led to him changing his viewpoint. While an appeal to empathy or comapassion was a lost cause, he did seem to respond well to reason and consistency. As such, he would frequently say "I must admit, I have never thought of it that way. Give me time to ponder what you have just said." several times. My predictions and expectations were subverted and his change of perspective seemed about as organic as it was possible to be. Now, whether it is responsible to let a man live after such an attempted calamity just because he isn't a raving lunatic at present is a good question, but let's table it for a second.

Now, regardless of whether you make Sarevok swear the geas or not, regardless of if he ends the game (TOB) as evil, neutral or good (chaotic in all cases), he does not betray you and it is demonstrated that he is sincere in his assertion that "I have tried to best you twice, you have bested me both times. It is time I admitted that you are indeed the stronger of us and I am willing to serve you for the scraps from your table, whatever you happen to feel fitting to toss my way." (obviously a paraphrase)

I found this compelling because if you choose to take his life, YOU CHOOSE to take his life. You are not let off the hook by way of self-defense. You have to ask if proactive life taking is justified. Sadly, the game doesn't allow you to *meaningfully* take his life. You can command him in battle in such a way that he dies, but there is no scripted option where you get to say "I can not allow you to live" and proceed to take his life, possibly to some protest, possibly not. Whatever, limits have to exist somewhere.

Anyhow, making him canonically relapse into the most sadistic form of evil that is not even ideologically consistent with his initial evil views (he wanted to be Bhaal's usurper, not servant) is bad enough. MAKING HIM A FUCKING INCESTUOUS MOLESTOR IS INTOLERABLE. Old Sarevok was an evil man of conviction. His convictions and goals were all kinds of fucked and the only rightful resolution was to take his life, BUT this is not the profile of an incestuous child molestor. WHY THE FUCK IS CHILD MOLESTATION AND INCEST A THEME AT ALL. Unethical as he was, that was not the *kind* of monster he was. Additionally, we didn't touch these topics in the late 90's early 00's FOR GOOD REASON.

Of course, you have to pull off a bunch of deus ex machina stupid justifications as to WHY HE IS STILL LIVING AT ALL. The bittersweet ending card at BG2 implies he lived the last of his normal life and faded off at the end of his natural lifespan. Why the BG2 protagonist died to old age but Sarevok is not only living, but a physical juggernaut still, is stupid and hackeneyed as fuck. Deals with dark powers and all that, blah blah blah. There was a poetic artfulness to the way Sarevok was handled in BG2: TOB that was COMPLETELY upended in the most DISGUSTING way possible by Larian Studios.

I have a similar gripe about how they handled ALL the legacy characters, especially Viconia. Of course, that's the fucking point. Our modern world willfully rejects its past and our fiction must follow.

 

[Agarathium1066]

I'm rather convinced that the writers really, really did not feel that fond of most of the older BG companions. Viconia simply turning into a generic baddy who you are likely to butcher reflexively as she sets herself against Shart. I like to just presume the Sarevok we see is a twisted form of him revived to be a puppet rather than the same man. Jaheira felt somewhat similar though she's also set up as being not all that great at her job. Oh and she's a neglectful adoptive mother as well. Minsc is.. well he's the same general idea. I don't think his new voice actor can compare.

I feel they could've easily established another pair of characters rather than deep six two well liked companions from the previous entries. They just wanted to squeeze in some member berries and I suppose kill off a pair of characters they've got a chip on their shoulder over.

 

[Love Is Blue]

nothing gorion's ward mattered because bhaal is alive because fuck you I guess. also why is sarevok a bhaalspawn when he doesn't have a piece of bhaal's divinity since ToB

 

[Rick Nekieta]

Since I was kind of pushing it in terms of post length as is, I will add an addendum now that a few responses came in. The way BG2 handled Sarevok changed the way I view and approach things. It challenged many notions of my philosophy and touched me on an emotional level. That ending slide about never knowing his place, trying to bury his deceased ex-lover, reflecting on his life, never having roots, getting up to all kinds of shenanigans as both hero and villain was soul touching. When Sarevok would say "I had not considered that, let me reflect on that", it is something I incorporated into the way I approach things. Forgoing the common argument ("don't kill people because it is mean") for the uncommon argument ("even if you disregard moral implications, any power you achieve by way of violence, you just set yourself up for a retarded game of king of the mountain where any power you acquire, you can never rest on and someone is always going to try to take it away from you, it's a neverending battle that no one wins. This state of affairs is a powerlessness unto itself. Living always looking over your shoulder is not living at all.")

Being aware that sometimes you predict things wrong, no matter how assured you are something will happen. Despite all evidence to the contrary, he WAS sincere.

The way they handled Sarevok in TOB was a thing of beauty, because it was far better than anything I could have scripted.

I do NOT recognize BG3 resolutions to BG2 stories. I consider the BG2 ending cards canon.

 

[karz]

I just want to say that there is no end to how much I loathe the resolution of Sarevok's story in BG3.

 

[X Prime]

If I recall it's because Wizards of the Coast wrote some shitty Baldur's Gate books that retold the game story. That's why Viconia is different too.

This isn't them from the games.

EDIT: Nope I'm wrong, sorry! I should have double checked before opening my mouth. It looks like Larian just made up a bunch of bullshit and fans "oh it's novel stuff" for some reason.

 

[Rick Nekieta]

In Larian's second game "Beyond Divinity", in the first chapter, there is a medical officer (within the enemy ranks but he is unaware of your affiliations and/or "enemy status") who is the personification of the stereotypical gay one might have seen on 2000's TV turned up to 11. They go way over the top with his lispy and effeminate voice, as well as the double entendre nature of his lines, as one might see on something like the Simpsons at that time. This is in STARK contrast to the fellating (no pun intended) of the LGBT community one would see in later games. The original jokes did not come from a place of malice, but wokist theory does not concern itself with such things and behaves as if it is indistinguishable from genuine threats to life and physical safety. At one point, they turned their nose up at PC culture and now are purporting themselves as if the wokists were always right and they were always with them.

While I'll give them credit for having sex/nudity filters as desired, I despise how sex comes up constantly throughout the game and EVERYONE THROWS THEMSELVES AT YOU CONSTANTLY. VERY immersion breaking. I want to stab things, not screw things.

 

[That Guy Who Likes The Chili]

Since I was kind of pushing it in terms of post length as is, I will add an addendum now that a few responses came in. The way BG2 handled Sarevok changed the way I view and approach things. It challenged many notions of my philosophy and touched me on an emotional level. That ending slide about never knowing his place, trying to bury his deceased ex-lover, reflecting on his life, never having roots, getting up to all kinds of shenanigans as both hero and villain was soul touching.

I played the first 2 BG games and TOB at a very young age, way too young probably like 12 years old lol. I'd spend hours on my dad's office computer playing them as much as I could because the story enthralled me and it was the first set of games that really taught me to think about my morality beyond just killing everything I saw because I picked my characters alignment. I remember picking a Paladin and how you couldn't be anything but Lawful Good back then.
And yeah, Sarevok and Viconia's treatments in BG3 left really bad tastes in my mouth because of how hard you had to work to redeem those two characters just to learn one was an incestuous shell of his former self, and the other a Chaotic-Evil-Stupid child kidnapper neither of which you could confront with any aspects of their redemptions in BG2 or TOB.

Why the BG2 protagonist died to old age

I guess this is addressed in some official WoTC D&D Module called "Murder in Baldur's Gate" where the Protag from BG2 just decided to become the Lord Captain of the Flaming Fist for absolutely no reason after TOB, and was somehow not the last BhaalSpawn, there was another last living Bhaalspawn who was that guy who would panic-teleport away from you every time you saw him in TOB. They both become Slayers and fight to the death and one of them dies and the survivor became the new Bhaal or something incredibly retarded like that. Even though the ending of TOB doesn't allow for that to be possible.
There's so much I want to blame WoTC for when it comes to BG3, but a lot of it really was at the end of the day Larian just writing their own fan-fic and picking their personal favorites on who they liked and disliked when it came to the party members and story.

 

[Rick Nekieta]

It is so hackeneyed, it just reeks of "you will find a way to reconcile the party line as truthful, without regard to however you think it may contradict previous assertions." Whatever lore they put between BG2 and BG3 to create even the auspices of continuity is so terribly inconsistent with previous entries that it is worse than having no explanation at all. It just reeks of "that's the way things are now, deal with it."

That whole thing with Viikang (or however it was spelled) usurping the BG2 protagonist's power was a fan fiction in the wake of ToB that was meant as an obvious joke. Since we KNOW that the protagonist is the last Bhaalspawn at the conclusion of ToB, we can only assume one of the Five or Melly herself killed him offscreen at some point. The details are irrelevant. Canonizing a shit post is peak clown world shit.

 

[That Guy Who Likes The Chili]

It is so hackeneyed, it just reeks of "you will find a way to reconcile the party line as truthful, without regard to however you think it may contradict previous assertions." Whatever lore they put between BG2 and BG3 to create even the auspices of continuity is so terribly inconsistent with previous entries that it is worse than having no explanation at all. It just reeks of "that's the way things are now, deal with it."

That whole thing with Viikang (or however it was spelled) usurping the BG2 protagonist's power was a fan fiction in the wake of ToB that was meant as an obvious joke. Since we KNOW that the protagonist is the last Bhaalspawn at the conclusion of ToB, we can only assume one of the Five or Melly herself killed him offscreen at some point. The details are irrelevant. Canonizing a shit post is peak clown world shit.

To me its also the world's biggest middle finger because the "Official Protagonist" of BG1-2 "Abdel Adrian" being canon is universally loathed by everyone, I don't think in the last 20 years I've ever seen anyone say a single positive thing about the idea of him existing as canon, or anyone saying anything positive about those absolute bullshit Baldur's Gate 1-2 novels that he sprang out of.

 

[BONECRUSHER]

Let's not forget, aside from pissing all over the old characters and their development, the game is chock full of faggotry, trannies, and degeneracy. The writing is akin to what a really hormonal 14 year old would think is cool, with le ebbin sex jokes and duh gobbo fuk le troll huehuheuhe.
Forgotten Realms was already a garbage setting, shat out by Ed Greenwood, a degenerate well enough in his whole league, but Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights managed to avoid his shittery well enough. Bestiality Gate 3 couldn't even hope to attempt to make any of the characters interesting or compelling, they're all millenial writing incarnate.

 

[Rick Nekieta]

Yeah, it's reflective how how astoundingly emotionally stunted young adults are these days. When I see people in their mid 20s playing these games that a 12 year old would have played them in my day, I shudder. I'm an Xer, but I was under the impression that this is more of a Z thing, in terms of the audience they are appealing to. The writers might be Millenials *shaping* the Z generation, but all but the last of the Millenials had a *different* set of issues I thought. Maybe their role in sewing the seeds is what is being referenced. I'm not Millenial guarding, I'm genuinely interested in correction if I'm missing something.

 

[Illuminati Order Official]

Let's not forget, aside from pissing all over the old characters and their development, the game is chock full of faggotry, trannies, and degeneracy.

The original BG2 had a troon, kinda. For those who haven't played it \ haven't recruited Edwin.
Edwin is a comically evil wizard. In his companion quest you help him find a book that is supposed to give him some incredible power. You find the book, Edwin performs a ritual, it backfires and turns him into Edwina. He complains about it a lot, then he finds it useful because it helps him hide from people pursuing him, In the end those people figure out his deception and revert him back to his original form, to which he reacts with barely contained disappointment. In his ending slide you learn that he turned himself into a grumpy woman and lived the rest of his days in this form.

 

[Lady Adjani]

While I'll give them credit for having sex/nudity filters as desired, I despise how sex comes up constantly throughout the game and EVERYONE THROWS THEMSELVES AT YOU CONSTANTLY. VERY immersion breaking. I want to stab things, not screw things.

Triggers for certain "romance" scenes felt downright broken in act 1, you'd recruit people into your party and head to camp to rest after maybe 2 hours of gameplay total, and you'd already have people lined up and ready to literally suck your dick. Shadowheart is the only one that shows a bit of restraint and requires some effort on the players part to romance.

There's a lot to hate about BG3 but overall I'm still very disappointed that we'll never get an expansion pack as the overall foundation is more than solid.

 

[Kharash]

They correctly assumed that 99.9% of players had no idea who these characters were anyway. Why shit on 0.1% of the players who did? I don't know.

 

[Major]

Yeah, the story isn't has good I guess. I think it's because people don't read books anymore.

Do you have to kill the elephant creature to get to do more of Serevok's character stuff, or is there a workaround?

 

[BONECRUSHER]

The original BG2 had a troon, kinda. For those who haven't played it \ haven't recruited Edwin.
Edwin is a comically evil wizard. In his companion quest you help him find a book that is supposed to give him some incredible power. You find the book, Edwin performs a ritual, it backfires and turns him into Edwina. He complains about it a lot, then he finds it useful because it helps him hide from people pursuing him, In the end those people figure out his deception and revert him back to his original form, to which he reacts with barely contained disappointment. In his ending slide you learn that he turned himself into a grumpy woman and lived the rest of his days in this form.

It wasn't like that, he didn't turn himself into a woman. Elminster turns him into one after he pisses Elminster off, Edwin is actually happy to be back to his normal self.

 

[strawberry15]

I played the first 2 BG games and TOB at a very young age, way too young probably like 12 years old lol. I'd spend hours on my dad's office computer playing them as much as I could because the story enthralled me and it was the first set of games that really taught me to think about my morality beyond just killing everything I saw because I picked my characters alignment. I remember picking a Paladin and how you couldn't be anything but Lawful Good back then.
And yeah, Sarevok and Viconia's treatments in BG3 left really bad tastes in my mouth because of how hard you had to work to redeem those two characters just to learn one was an incestuous shell of his former self, and the other a Chaotic-Evil-Stupid child kidnapper neither of which you could confront with any aspects of their redemptions in BG2 or TOB.

I played first 2 games at a very young age with my uncle. I was not capable of reading english at the time. It was special time for both of us as i enjoy him explaining stuff i could not read and watching him casting simulacrum on Korgan via a helmet and kill every enemy etc. Then around 2008, i managed to play the games on my own to remember my uncle. BG was a very special game for me. the mechanics were as close to tabletoprpg's as they could, the quest, the companions all were good. the dialogue and lore was interesting, it is one of the best old bioware ever had.
BG3 is not something i can accept. even without all those horrible stuff removed from thegame, it is still a mediocre game at best. if it was out 15 years ago, people would "meh" it.

 

[⋖ cørdion ⋗]

>Max primary stat
>set up blackhole of death with baiting enemies and one-turn exploding them all
>Up to RNG whether i erase them from existence or do 1/3 of their health
And that's when I quit

 

[Agarathium1066]

It wasn't like that, he didn't turn himself into a woman. Elminster turns him into one after he pisses Elminster off, Edwin is actually happy to be back to his normal self.

Its in part because Edwin's a genuine mysoginist and misanthrope who thinks he's far more competent than he actually is. Which is saying something because by the end of Throne of Bhaal he's potentially a near level 20 Conjurer. Man's got chops.

Just not enough to irritate the Literal Van Mural Wizard in Forgotten Realms powerful.