Boeing Troubles - One of the world's largest aerospace manufacturers keeps having problems with their planes.

[AnOminous]

The worst part is that we all know it wont ever bite them, nothing ever happens, but also because the government will just bail them out again

Or they get Luigi'd.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

seems there may be a design flaw
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CNBC: Jeju Air crash: Boeing falls 4% in premarket as South Korea orders B737-800 inspection (archive)

 

[mindlessobserver]

CNBC: Jeju Air crash: Boeing falls 4% in premarket as South Korea orders B737-800 inspection (archive)

It will be fine! Congress will just allocate Boeing another Squadgillion dollars, so they can hire the finest Jeets in Punjab to determine there is absolutely nothing wrong with their planes. Anything left over from that will be used to pay off families of the deceased so they don't sue. Thank you based American taxpayers.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Never flying Boeing again, I tell you whut.

 

[Jace on ice]

No problem we just just need another eleventy billion in taxpayer dollars so we can import a crack squad of peepee poopoo engineers from Mumbai so they can find the problem.

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

my friend who is in the air force told me that when they got the new tanker based off of the old 767 platform that when the air force mechanics were doing their inspections that they found tools inside panels and things that were left their during assembly that didn't belong there.

Yep Boeing has gigantic FOD issues with the new tanker.

Forgive me if I'm late of if its already been covered, but the doorplug blowout is such a morbidly hilarious scenario.
The TL;DR of what happened is said door/door area needed to be repainted. Boeing of course had this done at an outsourced plant. None of the people who performed the painting spoke a lick of English whatsoever (which was found upon investigation). The missing bolts were actually found to be missing by an inspector, and the ticket said inspector wrote up was still open at the time the plane was released.
In short we have
1. People who couldnt speaking english (and thus could not read the manual, which is the greatest sin to commit in aviation maintenance)
2. Said people left their job critically incomplete
3. An inspector who noted the issue of being incomplete, and his ticket went ignored.
4. Q/C obviously not catching the open ticket
How you reach this level of a comedy of errors is baffling, especially in a day and age where the biggest buzzword that gets you the most good boy points is "safety"

Thankfully the no habla Ingles workers were really cheap and made the profit margin go up .0001%

That's an aviation industry problem, not just a Boeing problem.
This summer I worked at one of the largest MROs in the country, and they only just recently started certified mechanics at $24 an hour (previously it was $20 an hour, and non certified people at $18 an hour)
For context, average mechanic starting pay is around $25-$27 an hour (and you can of course, to work for amazon fulfillment at $22 an hour starting)
There are just a lot of issues surrounding the aviation maintenance industry right now when it comes to pay and people.
I could go into more detail for any interested, but rest assured, this problem expands well beyond just Boeing

Hehe people on the F-16 assembly line start at $18 an hour . It might be $20 an hour now.

The real sleeper issue is that while Professional jobs have not kept pace with inflation or the cost of entry (College and University) the trades and unkilled labor HAS. As was pointed out, you can make 20 dollars an hour being a wage slave in mister Bezos' cuck shack. The reason for this is that turnover at the lower end of the job market is very high, and with so many people trying to avoid being burger flippers and ditch diggers, the people willing to do this work, and do it competently actually are able to command pretty good wages compared to what these jobs offered 20 years ago. I was talking to a guy who was working temp job as a traffic flagger. You know who they are, those dudes who stand in the middle of the road with that sign that says "Slow" on one side and "Stop" on the other. 18 bucks an hour. Off the street. Alot of McJobs are also commding 13-14 an hour to START with guaranteed pay raises up to 16 to 18 an hour if you actually stick around for 2 years

Yep. Skilled labor pay is stuck 30-40 years in the past, as is entry level white collar pay.

My cousin works at a marketing company that starts new grads at MAYBE $50K a year. They recruit from an extremely expensive private university....

From what I understand, Airbus is worse. Boeing will give you some tolerances to work with. Airbus gives a spec, and if it doesn't match the spec, it has to be replaced.

Airbus is poorer quality and does not last as long, but also much cheaper (an A320 NEO is 101 million, compared to a 737 MAX at 310 million). Airbus also has a lot of autopilot systems to the point that the plane really does just fly itself, which is great for poorer countries with poorer quality pilots, which is what the 737 MAX was supposed to compete with (which is a seperate discussion entirely)

Like I said before, most of the public does not understand how horrifically expensive aviation is. Related to this, if you ever see any "aviation experts" in the media, feel free to completely discount thier opinions, as 9/10 times, what they say ranges from woefully wrong to outright retarded

Yep Airbus uses financial engineering even more than Boeing.

Plus their flight control software is legit spaghetti code that means their jets are retarded to fly IF/WHEN the automated systems go bad.

Tbh: Sounds like once they get the engines figured out, there’s a lot of room in the market for Russian and Chinese jets.

Shit, even without hyper efficient engines they should be alright. I reckon the savings on maintenance and planes might be worth a plane that’s 5% less efficient.

..... Russian civil aviation pretty much died in 1991 and came back with ONE jet (the Sukhoi Superjet) in the late 2010s that sold like shit and now is only coming back due to turbo sanctions. Even then it's warmed over 1990s designs that are like flying dinosaurs.

As for China, their C919 aka the Chinese 737 is still not in mass production yet and uses Western engines.

Corporate jobs a generally regarded as the best in the field. They have a corporate structure rather than maintence structure, so they're often salaried, and you get a pay bump based on your level of education (BS, MS, etc.). You work on the same few airplanes, and and thus can better track problems. Pay is decent(you might start at around 80k or so). You may be on call, but offtime is better and working 3rd shift isnt terribly common. Theyre all over the country since theres CEOs all over the country. The downside is that these jobs are very exclusive, and you not only need good experience to get in, you also have to know people that know people that know people to get in.

You can say "suck some CEO dick" it's ok. Or if not his then his buddy's

On that note, it is utterly baffling to me that Lockheed doesnt offer a civilian variatiant of the C130. You would think that there'd be a huge market for it, particularly in canada where most runways are unimproved and short, to the point that they're the worlds largest operator beech 1900s, and friccin Boeing 737-200s since the -200s can still have a vortex disspator.

They do and no one buys it. ~114 sales in 50 years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-100_Hercules

The Brazilian jet is essentially a direct C-130 competitor with worse rough field performance (big vacuums under the wings) but it goes faster.

I mean it kind of is. They fixed the piece of shit software but they can't fix the reason they need it in the first place. The shity aerodynamics is caused by the engine being so far forwards which is a result of Boeing insisting on using an outdated design and just throwing newer engines on it.

Airbus still has life left on the a320s design, Boeing doesn't. They need to replace the 737 next generation but they are in financial trouble and their executives are too retarded to put money into new aircraft designs. They are stagnant and I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years they don't somehow hack together an even shittier 737 variant somehow.

The 737 is an early 1960s design. If Boeing wasn't retarded, they would have started on a brand new 737/A320 clean sheet design in around 2010

 

[mindlessobserver]

Yep. Skilled labor pay is stuck 30-40 years in the past, as is entry level white collar pay.

It's going to turn into a really really big problem in the next 20 years. There are going to be alot of very angry middle class wage slaves being priced out by foreign imports. Meanwhile the lower level of the economic ladder is starting to enjoy unprecedented labor market power. McDonalds is not jacking up its prices because it wants to be a greedy fuck, it's doing it because they need to pay for competent people to run the fry station that won't burn the product or not show up when scheduled.

The tech revolution is not coming fast enough either. All online ordering and their in store kiosks have done is allow orders to reach the Kitchen faster without the counter cashier filter that slows shit down, or even better, cancels fake orders. The loss of a cashier position at McDonalds in favor of App based ordering is utterly wasted in the face of mistaken or fraudulent orders going through and leading to orders ending up in the trash. And the nice robots still can't properly cook the food, assemble it, bag it, and hand it to the customers in a way that is cheaper then even inflated burger flipper wages.

Incidentally, this is probably why even 7-11 was able to secure H1B visas for cashiers. Native workers know McDicks will pay 16 an hour to assemble big macs. Why would they work at 7-11 for 11 an hour? There is no barrier to entry for either job.

It's all pointing to a really grim scenario of overly educated people with massive debts unable to compete in a market where they are priced out of property because Pajeet from the Mumbai Street is keeping white collar wages suppressed, while SpongeBob Square Pants making crabby patties but having no college debt is making the same Per Annum income and can afford inflated rent or even a mortgage if he really puts his mind too it.

This is sort of off topic, but not really. Boeing is an American company. And it treated the Americans as replaceable economic units. So now their planes are falling from the sky, nobody wants to join the company for the bullshit starting pay they offer, their existing workforce hates them and doesn't want to work their best for the company, and the only thing they can hope for is the US Congress bailing them out with taxpayers money

 

[Car Won't Crank]

The 737 is an early 1960s design. If Boeing wasn't retarded, they would have started on a brand new 737/A320 clean sheet design in around 2010

Weren't they doing that with the 797/NMA project? They scrapped that after Airbus broke news about the A320 neos coming to market so much sooner, no?

 

[mindlessobserver]

Much like everything else in our gay current year, nothing is actually new. Even 5th generations fighters like the F35 and F22 are not new. They are iterations on experimental designs from the 1980s, using the engine mounts of the 1970s jet air craft. The only innovation being the ability to reduce the radar profile of an F-15. That is all the F-22 is after all. An F-15 with a new chassis designed to reduce radar profile.

It's why we still use the B-52 bomber, which will reach it's centennial anniversary of service in just 20 years. 100 years of active service for an aircraft. Amazing.

And that's the really dirty secret isn't it. Aircraft are fundamentally creatures of physical laws. And once those physical laws are accounted for...you don't really need to redesign anything. But that is not good for the bottom line. You need to come out with some new bullshit all the time. Otherwise your patents will expire. So is the 737-Max the same thing as the 737 that came out half a century ago? NO. It's got new...stuff...that, uh, synergizes modern technology to create a new customer experience and..uh...unprecedented levels of crew control with the very best technology that...while written by pajeets with fake credentials will lead to 5% decreases in carbon emission reductions and meet DEI quotas and...AND ITS JUST BETTER OKAY STOP ASKING QUESTIONS!

 

[Betonhaus]

You need to come out with some new bullshit all the time. Otherwise your patents will expire. So is the 737-Max the same thing as the 737 that came out half a century ago? NO. It's got new...stuff...that, uh, synergizes modern technology to create a new customer experience and..uh...unprecedented levels of crew control with the very best technology that...while written by pajeets with fake credentials will lead to 5% decreases in carbon emission reductions and meet DEI quotas and...AND ITS JUST BETTER OKAY STOP ASKING QUESTIONS!

The main thing with the Boeing Max was it was supposed to be more economical by having bigger engines. But that threw off the balance because the engines didn't fit under the wings.

 

[Vecr]

Even 5th generations fighters like the F35 and F22 are not new. They are iterations on experimental designs from the 1980s, using the engine mounts of the 1970s jet air craft. The only innovation being the ability to reduce the radar profile of an F-15. That is all the F-22 is after all. An F-15 with a new chassis designed to reduce radar profile.

Kind of true. The F-22 is a 1980s design filled in with 1990s technology. The F-35 is a 1990s design filled in with 2000s technology. Both needed polishing up after, and only entered service about half a decade after their tech decade.

I think the F-22 is a better dogfighter than the F-15, but I'm not sure. Doesn't really matter for actual engagements. It might have a higher flight ceiling too, the official number was a lie and it can probably zoom climb better than anyone has seen. Maybe better than an unmodified F-15, but the Streak Eagle was really good.

There are rumors that the F-35 uses British stealth technology and that's why it can be exported. It probably has a bigger radar cross section, but maybe that's just because it has worse tolerance and is bumpier? Wacky carbon nanotube rumors too.

 

[Car Won't Crank]

Kind of true. The F-22 is a 1980s design filled in with 1990s technology. The F-35 is a 1990s design filled in with 2000s technology. Both needed polishing up after, and only entered service about half a decade after their tech decade.

I think the F-22 is a better dogfighter than the F-15, but I'm not sure. Doesn't really matter for actual engagements. It might have a higher flight ceiling too, the official number was a lie and it can probably zoom climb better than anyone has seen. Maybe better than an unmodified F-15, but the Streak Eagle was really good.

There are rumors that the F-35 uses British stealth technology and that's why it can be exported. It probably has a bigger radar cross section, but maybe that's just because it has worse tolerance and is bumpier? Wacky carbon nanotube rumors too.

I remember when Ace Combat 4 first came out ages ago and the F22 on the cover made it seem so high tech and mysterious. To think it was already a bit old when it made the game cover is some whiplash.

 

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

.

My cousin works at a marketing company that starts new grads at MAYBE $50K a year. They recruit from an extremely expensive private university

it really is insane, meanwhile warehouse work pays just as much, hell i've worked at places where at least an hour is spent sitting around like an asshole and getting paid $25/hr, honestly if you factor in costs i know plenty of people who haven't really broken even on college, and that's just for bachelors, i'd say maybe 1% of people i know who went to graduate school have broken even on investment, and even thats sus because very rarely did they need to go to graduate school to get the job that gave them the pay bump and if you factor in inflation college in general hasn't paid off for an even bigger chunk of people i know. meanwhile every hoodrat who was forced to start a career at 18 ended up doing rather well because 4 years more of general experience trying to get a job and learning the tricks and usually befriending the right people so they'd be the ones sitting on their ass clearing more than private universiy kids.

This leads to an interesting point because plenty of people were sounding the alarm even in the 2000s, but because it didn't trickle down to the teachers and parents of america plenty of people got fucked and is probably a huge factor in the rise of socialists online. As has come out recently, "learn to code" was mostly bad advice even if you tried 20 years ago because the H1-Bs you were competing with.

 

[mindlessobserver]

This leads to an interesting point because plenty of people were sounding the alarm even in the 2000s, but because it didn't trickle down to the teachers and parents of america plenty of people got fucked and is probably a huge factor in the rise of socialists online. As has come out recently, "learn to code" was mostly bad advice even if you tried 20 years ago because the H1-Bs you were competing with.

And now we come to the real crux of the matter.

Be you. Generation Alpha. Raised by a bunch of retard millenials. They stared at screens. They made you stare at screens. But you understood the screens in a way they could not. The screens were lies. Children's toys. Telling you to buy Ryan's world mystery eggs and Mister Beast feastible snacks. Lies. All the way down. From your shitty millenial parents to the influencers they let you watch who as you grew older revealed themselves to be the horrific golems they were.

Lies.


Lies.


All the way down.

Now you are told you need to go half a million dollars in debt on student loans to be a doctor/Engineer/Programmer. Or else you are a failure. But you know the screens lied. Your parents lied. The entire WORLD is a lie.

I've had idle thoughts about the Alpha generation being weird. But mild powerlevel, I have seen Gen Alpha grow up from birth. Corporate America is really not prepared for this group. They have an awareness that is uncanny. I really cannot describe it, but if anyone has raised the tablet generation they know exactly what I mean.

Boeing is going to go bankrupt in the coming years. If you are investing in this company long term you are fool. Once the boomers and Gen X are dead, nobody will remain who remembers Boeing doing anything good. And the Alphas, who will be rising to control won't be interested in the past legacy. They will want to SEE what Boeing can do for them NOW.

 

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

but if anyone has raised the tablet generation they know exactly what I mean.

not falling for scams isn't really a "notable" trait, i mean yeah the teenagers i know are as self aware of modern society as your average kiwifarmer but that doesn't mean much. there were always people that saw through the strings, didn't amount to much.

 

[mindlessobserver]

not falling for scams isn't really a "notable" trait, i mean yeah the teenagers i know are as self aware of modern society as your average kiwifarmer but that doesn't mean much. there were always people that saw through the strings, didn't amount to much.

The Alphas are not teenagers. Anyone in their teens right now is a Zoomer

 

[1Tonka_Truck]

So is the 737-Max the same thing as the 737 that came out half a century ago?

The Max series have newer, more fuel efficient engines that mess up the CoG/CoL balance. That's why they need the (very poorly designed, implemented, and documented) attitude control system that was causing crashes.

A new airframe designed around engines from this century wouldn't have stability problems, but that costs money.

 

[High-Fructose Corn Syrup]

The max came about because Airbus came out with their 320 neo.
Boesing wanted to create a new aircraft based off the 787 but it would have taken way too much time for them to start a new airplane from scratch and didn't want to lose out to Airbus and their neos which are just a 320 with new engines. The max was a bandaid not to lose market share.

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

Kind of true. The F-22 is a 1980s design filled in with 1990s technology. The F-35 is a 1990s design filled in with 2000s technology. Both needed polishing up after, and only entered service about half a decade after their tech decade.

I think the F-22 is a better dogfighter than the F-15, but I'm not sure. Doesn't really matter for actual engagements. It might have a higher flight ceiling too, the official number was a lie and it can probably zoom climb better than anyone has seen. Maybe better than an unmodified F-15, but the Streak Eagle was really good.

There are rumors that the F-35 uses British stealth technology and that's why it can be exported. It probably has a bigger radar cross section, but maybe that's just because it has worse tolerance and is bumpier? Wacky carbon nanotube rumors too.

Uhhhhhhhh no.

The F-22 is probably the best Dogfighting jet on Earth even with the Su-57 flying around.

In fact it's actually gimped as it doesn't have its cheek radars or HMS installed.

The faster, flies higher and is a generational leap beyond the F-15.

The F-22 was also continually upgraded from Day 1 although the numbers built are absolutely retarded. The USAF should have demanded a minimum of ~230 jets, so three wings of 72 jets combat coded and a few test and develop airframes. But no, they went full retard and said "ohh yes Congress 193 is just fine"

The F-35 stealth tech is actually more advanced than the F-22 although it's airframe shape isn't quite as stealth optimized.

I remember when Ace Combat 4 first came out ages ago and the F22 on the cover made it seem so high tech and mysterious. To think it was already a bit old when it made the game cover is some whiplash.

In 2004 the F-22 had JUST entered service.

 

[geckogoy]

F-22 was in dev for a long time because that was right at the tail end of the US's engineering capabilities totally falling apart, they could still kindof do stuff just very slowly so it was 'in the pipe' and being talked about for a long time before actually being put into service