Borderlands (1, 2, 3, The Pre-Sequel, TftB)

[moocow]

Apparently, Gearbox gathered "data" from BL2 and Pre-Sequel and came to the conclusion that DLC VH haven't been appealing or interesting to players.

This demonstrates two important things about data gathering and statistics.

1) Bad data can only ever lead to bad conclusions.

2) Good data in the hands of utter buffoons almost always leads to bad conclusions.

Either they screwed up on their data collection (and I guess there's that admission that even BL2 was phoning home regularly), or they got good data and screwed up interpreting it.

 

[The handsome tard]

There is a Gaige one as well with an echo log having the father of the girl she killed talking about trying to hunt her down.

Ava is the worst character in the franchise.

When will writers learn that no one likes whiny, angsty teens? Worse that her stupidity gets a far superior character killed and even worse still that the game shits all over that dead character while continually propping up the whining brat.

It does feel like its Dead Rising 4 all over again. The young (female) bit- I mean, brave character being mentored by the veteran character and the story acting like the former is hotshit while the latter is "old history". They screw up everything, blame their mentors and the story wants to buy like Frank and Maya wouldnt end up slapping the mouth of these brats shut. Oh and they get them both killed, except they backtracked with Frank, not sure about Maya ...

And its setting up that Borderlands will now center around HER and not the immense number of much better developted VHs...

Moments like this I realize that Handsome Jack should have won (unironically), the vault cult wouldnt have happened with Hyperion AND the warrior at his disposal.

 

[That Chris Guy]

Ava is the worst character in the franchise.

Is she really that bad? I haven't even finished Promethea yet, and I already find Lorelei insufferable. Disregarding the douchebag VA, the character is so typical of an SJW tryhard. Dangerhair, face paint like that asari from Mass Effect: Andromeda, a quest and origin that revolves around coffee (because that's the only thing relatable to them), and taking one of the more popular main characters into a future relationship. That, and she says, "bollocks" about as much as Scooter says, "Catach-a-ride!".

Maybe you need a BL4 to give them more depth and development, or maybe they get better in the story I haven't yet completed, but right now they're just a walking clique representation.

Moments like this I realize that Handsome Jack should have won (unironically), the vault cult wouldnt have happened with Hyperion AND the warrior at his disposal.

I know Borderlands 2 catapulted the series's popularity, but as it turned out the COV are so less compelling than Jack was. It makes me feel like chronologically, we would have been better served dealing with flat villains like the COV in the second game with Handsome Jack leading to a more impressive conclusion to the trilogy.

Or, you know, just had better villains and characters made for 3, or returning favorites like Zed and Salvador.

 

[The handsome tard]

Is she really that bad? I haven't even finished Promethea yet, and I already find Lorelei insufferable. Disregarding the douchebag VA, the character is so typical of an SJW tryhard. Dangerhair, face paint like that asari from Mass Effect: Andromeda, a quest and origin that revolves around coffee (because that's the only thing relatable to them), and taking one of the more popular main characters into a future relationship. That, and she says, "bollocks" about as much as Scooter says, "Catach-a-ride!".

Maybe you need a BL4 to give them more depth and development, or maybe they get better in the story I haven't yet completed, but right now they're just a walking clique representation.



I know Borderlands 2 catapulted the series's popularity, but as it turned out the COV are so less compelling than Jack was. It makes me feel like chronologically, we would have been better served dealing with flat villains like the COV in the second game with Handsome Jack leading to a more impressive conclusion to the trilogy.

Or, you know, just had better villains and characters made for 3, or returning favorites like Zed and Salvador.

Given its been years, you think they would have time to come up with a better constructed plot and characters, the second game made us love the new and old characters, giving them a lot of personality and, well, character (there is a reason people still are sad over Scooter's death, he wasnt just the "catch a ride" guy.)
B3's new characters feel like unaware steriotypes (while at least 2 had them act somewhat self aware of it). And Lore is shit too but Ava gets MAYA killed! That alone makes her utter irredemiable to players (especially Maya mains). When Roland dies in 2, it feels shocking since it comes out of nowhere and Roland is setup as the hero of the story (similar the elder scrolls oblivion, you arent the hero, you are the enforcer, the lancer of the hero) and he dies just like that from one shot from Handsome Jack (almost like he knew a cutscene bullet was fatal), but Maya's death feels like a preventable tragedy caused by a stupid teen who should have known better, which destroys the impact its suppose to have.

The Twins seem to be trying to come off as the villains you simply hate so you want them REALLY dead (while Handsome Jack was the type you love to hate. You love him as a villain but you know he has to pay). The Twins come off as annoying streamer/youtuber stabs, while HJ felt original and unique (he wasnt copying anyone, he simply was his own tier of wonderful villany). The twins barely feel like they have any 3dimention to them (HJ had angel and the mission where you have to free her from her torment while Jack BEGS you to stop it is gutwrenching, especially from his point of view as he begs the "bandits" to not murder his babygirl)...there is no moment like that with the twins.
I can go on and on about how utterly disappointed I am with B3's plot and how it barely pays off the setups from 2, TPS and Tales (where is the "War" that the watcher was warning about?! Felt like it was going to be an Endgame type of scenary). It just feels like a generic evil guys are evil, stop them. No twists, creamy center. B3 is just a "dry" experience.

Edit: oh and I forgot to mention, not a single writer from the first 3 games returned from 3...and the writers of 3 barely seemed to have any experience before it.
It really shows.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

So from what I gather, Borderlands 3 has improved gameplay with the switch to Unreal and the writing has fallen below even Anthony Burch worldbuilding.
The Epic exclusivity payout must not have been enough to spur them into making more Vault Hunters - or maybe they don't have anyone to write new ones, which is understandable. The fact that the current lot play like a mashup of older characters might be a big reason too, don't have enough ideas or don't want to make it too crowded.
I suppose I can avoid this one without much worry about missing anything.

 

[WaltherPPGAY]

Is she really that bad? I haven't even finished Promethea yet, and I already find Lorelei insufferable. Disregarding the douchebag VA, the character is so typical of an SJW tryhard. Dangerhair, face paint like that asari from Mass Effect: Andromeda, a quest and origin that revolves around coffee (because that's the only thing relatable to them), and taking one of the more popular main characters into a future relationship. That, and she says, "bollocks" about as much as Scooter says, "Catach-a-ride!".

For Lorelei's faults she at least has a minimal role in the game. 5-6 quests half of which are optional. Ava becomes increasingly central and participates throughout the game. I don't know how the developer expects us to take a 14 year old on the front line fighting by our side seriously.

Though, it is worrisome that Lorelei does have the name Lorelei which indicates increased prominence at some point.

The Epic exclusivity payout must not have been enough to spur them into making more Vault Hunters - or maybe they don't have anyone to write new ones, which is understandable. The fact that the current lot play like a mashup of older characters might be a big reason too, don't have enough ideas or don't want to make it too crowded.

I've played a fair amount and it does stand out that none of the characters' gameplay seems to mesh.

Zane is a utility based tank which is dumb.
Moze's action skill only has worth as to give you time to regen shields.
Amara is a puncher which doesn't work at all for some of the bosses.
Fl4k is OP to the point of ridiculous.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

I've played a fair amount and it does stand out that none of the characters' gameplay seems to mesh.

Zane is a utility based tank which is dumb.
Moze's action skill only has worth as to give you time to regen shields.
Amara is a puncher which doesn't work at all for some of the bosses.
Fl4k is OP to the point of ridiculous.

Based on action skills and what I can assume augments them; Zane is definitely a blend of Wilhelm, Jack, and Roland, Fl4k is Lilith/Zer0 mixed with Mordecai. Amara and Moze at least seem somewhat unique but that sort of foreign element may be just why they're (arguably) the least effective. They've added more complication, which I can applaud, but from what's being said it's not gelling for one reason or another, usually based on either preemptive gimping of ability or unchecked effectiveness in the case of Fl4k.
It's a shame because I believe the Gearbox team is fully capable of doing quite well if they weren't hamstrung by what I can only assume is poor leadership in key positions.

 

[That Chris Guy]

Given its been years, you think they would have time to come up with a better constructed plot and characters, the second game made us love the new and old characters, giving them a lot of personality and, well, character (there is a reason people still are sad over Scooter's death, he wasnt just the "catch a ride" guy.)
B3's new characters feel like unaware steriotypes (while at least 2 had them act somewhat self aware of it). And Lore is shit too but Ava gets MAYA killed! That alone makes her utter irredemiable to players (especially Maya mains). When Roland dies in 2, it feels shocking since it comes out of nowhere and Roland is setup as the hero of the story (similar the elder scrolls oblivion, you arent the hero, you are the enforcer, the lancer of the hero) and he dies just like that from one shot from Handsome Jack (almost like he knew a cutscene bullet was fatal), but Maya's death feels like a preventable tragedy caused by a stupid teen who should have known better, which destroys the impact its suppose to have.

Spoiler

Even though I was never really a fan of Maya, I respected the story that was given to her. I think I actually liked her more than Lilith, as it felt like the story addressed with her the impacts of Siren powers on the surrounding population, and the burdens/responsibilities that come with such power.

 

[Edgeworth]

I had a reeeeally long reply to sperg about but it came across as redundant so I'll just mention some things that I liked and disliked in a spoiler tag. They'll be succinct.

Spoiler: Story, character bits

- Zane was fun. Sue me, I like being able to switch places with the clone on the fly. He's also not bad with any bosses except Anointed which are immune to Cryo, which sucks considering that's his ONE element.

- the ending was rushed. Learning that Typhon was the Calypso's father came WAY too late in the story and had such little impact you'd be forgiven for not getting that impression, especially because the theme of "family" is prevalent throughout the game. By the way, Typhon's an annoying gremlin of a man and I'm not here for the tired innuendos about how much sex he had when you aren't gonna give any writing to.... I dunno, the family dynamic that's been pushed on us the whole game?

- Ava sucks, but that's been mentioned several times already. I just wanna come in to reaffirm just in case anyone was getting any ideas that she doesn't suck.

- Troy should've been the final boss instead of Tyreen because he has more character and growth. She's a one-dimensional psychopath, which is fine but they're already a step down from Jack, but even more so when you kill the "more compelling" of the two first. He also died a lot earlier in the game than I was expecting. AND he's a harder fight than Tyreen.

- Tannis being a Siren was an ass-pull. Hope you like Sirens because there's so much Siren shit in this game that you might as well just not even have a Siren as a playable character because it takes away from the power of the Sirens as a whole when you have one IN the game that you play as that's not affected by stuff that affects Sirens (i.e. Eridium overflows, the Pain and Terror boss fight end, etc.)

- The writing wasn't all that funny.

 

[Amaranth]

Finished the game, story was very boring but Troy had so much potential, I would have loved to see him as a recurring villain with his character growth, and his fight was probably the best fight in the game

 

[The handsome tard]

- Tannis being a Siren was an ass-pull. Hope you like Sirens because there's so much Siren shit in this game that you might as well just not even have a Siren as a playable character because it takes away from the power of the Sirens as a whole when you have one IN the game that you play as that's not affected by stuff that affects Sirens (i.e. Eridium overflows, the Pain and Terror boss fight end, etc.)

Tannis already had the power of autism which gave her a genius intellect at the cost of her social skils, giving her siren powers made her too freaking OP. Then again you can say all the females in this game were at least built up to be OP

 

[Amaranth]

Tannis already had the power of autism which gave her a genius intellect at the cost of her social skils, giving her siren powers made her too freaking OP. Then again you can say all the females in this game were at least built up to be OP

Except Maya. she got dropped easy

 

[The handsome tard]

Except Maya. she got dropped easy

At least when Roland died, you could make the argument HJ used some OP gun while he wasnt looking, with Maya? She definetly should have put a much better fight. She is the chick who killed The Warrior AND Handsome Jack!

 

[Kamov Ka-52]

Hot take: Handsome Jack was unfunny, grating and uninteresting as a villain.

 

[Agent of Z.O.G.]

I'm kinda surprised NOGS aren't getting as much attention.

 

[Edgeworth]

Hot take: Handsome Jack was unfunny, grating and uninteresting as a villain.

Too late, the pendulum swung that way a few years ago lol

No but for real, I think he was supposed to be all those things. Humour's subjective, of course, but he was *supposed* to bug you and annoy you and say unfunny things that *he* found funny but "normal" people aren't really supposed to. His backstory also didn't matter for him to be a villain simply because he was a jackass that murdered people for fun but that all got ruined with the retcons, shitshow that was the story for TPS and the side mission in BL3 so by trying to make him engaging or "complex", it's just a mess.

I think most people can take or leave Jack, they just like the performance Dameon Clarke gave.

 

[Tanner Glass]

I'm still trucking through but it feels like the twins fall flat because a lot of their villainy feels like a Handsome Jack retread.

In the first few hours.
- Character intros with "here's a bunch of minions I don't care about"
- Calling the PC over the echo constantly with trash talk; complete with sarcastic petname.
- Harming -the commander of the crimson raiders- easily in a cutscene and without any fight.
- Aligned with a corporation that sends out robots to fight.

If you've played BL2, it all feels like a shitty imitation of Handsome Jack without the charm. They don't feel meaningfully different as a villains (so far at least) which is sad because the game feels really flat as a result.

 

[That Chris Guy]

Too late, the pendulum swung that way a few years ago lol

No but for real, I think he was supposed to be all those things. Humour's subjective, of course, but he was *supposed* to bug you and annoy you and say unfunny things that *he* found funny but "normal" people aren't really supposed to. His backstory also didn't matter for him to be a villain simply because he was a jackass that murdered people for fun but that all got ruined with the retcons, shitshow that was the story for TPS and the side mission in BL3 so by trying to make him engaging or "complex", it's just a mess.

I think most people can take or leave Jack, they just like the performance Dameon Clarke gave.

Without having played TPS yet but knowing the plot, it was a game which absolutely wasn't needed. Handsome Jack was just better being there as a total knob; he didn't need any damn personal connection to the original Vault Hunters, or to have it swing around because of them. BL2 set him as an opportunist who capitalised on Eridium the moment it was released into the world, and it worked because he was neither a generic boss nor a soldierly type like Commander Steele. And he most certainly did not need Lilith come along and scar him as the origin story for his mask grafting. Overall, extremely weak and disappointing. Knowing what happened in TPS leaves no doubt in my mind that he would have killed Lilith when he had the chance instead of towing her along for the Vault when Maya would have made an equal substitute.

And yes, I agree that he was supposed to be annoying. I just imagined a guy sitting behind a mic being a douche while waiting for his minions to kill you, and I really liked some of his dialogue:

Tannis already had the power of autism which gave her a genius intellect at the cost of her social skils, giving her siren powers made her too freaking OP. Then again you can say all the females in this game were at least built up to be OP

I haven't really enjoyed any of them so far, to be honest. Knowing what happens to Tannis is disappointing, since she never really deserved those powers to begin with. She was fine as a crazy yet knowledgeable scientist, and giving her those powers does nothing for her character.

Ellie is okay, but she's no Scooter. Given Scooter's VA had to leave it makes some sense that she would fill the void in his stead, but it might have been better with a second character sharing the mechanical duties to give more back-and-forth (and possibly funnier) material.

At least Marcus is Marcus and Moxxi is Moxxi, I guess. I just think by the time you left Pandora and saw the first cutscene on the ship, it felt like the characterisation was very weak and less organic. Claptrap basically said nothing, and the way they spoke to each other felt jarring. This probably would have been the best moment to include a returning Vault Hunter like Axton, Salvador, Maya, Mordecai or Brick, where they could have appeared to assist the player in rescuing Lilith.

 

[The handsome tard]

Without having played TPS yet but knowing the plot, it was a game which absolutely wasn't needed. Handsome Jack was just better being there as a total knob; he didn't need any damn personal connection to the original Vault Hunters, or to have it swing around because of them. BL2 set him as an opportunist who capitalised on Eridium the moment it was released into the world, and it worked because he was neither a generic boss nor a soldierly type like Commander Steele. And he most certainly did not need Lilith come along and scar him as the origin story for his mask grafting. Overall, extremely weak and disappointing. Knowing what happened in TPS leaves no doubt in my mind that he would have killed Lilith when he had the chance instead of towing her along for the Vault when Maya would have made an equal substitute.

And yes, I agree that he was supposed to be annoying. I just imagined a guy sitting behind a mic being a douche while waiting for his minions to kill you, and I really liked some of his dialogue:

I haven't really enjoyed any of them so far, to be honest. Knowing what happens to Tannis is disappointing, since she never really deserved those powers to begin with. She was fine as a crazy yet knowledgeable scientist, and giving her those powers does nothing for her character.

Ellie is okay, but she's no Scooter. Given Scooter's VA had to leave it makes some sense that she would fill the void in his stead, but it might have been better with a second character sharing the mechanical duties to give more back-and-forth (and possibly funnier) material.

At least Marcus is Marcus and Moxxi is Moxxi, I guess. I just think by the time you left Pandora and saw the first cutscene on the ship, it felt like the characterisation was very weak and less organic. Claptrap basically said nothing, and the way they spoke to each other felt jarring. This probably would have been the best moment to include a returning Vault Hunter like Axton, Salvador, Maya, Mordecai or Brick, where they could have appeared to assist the player in rescuing Lilith.

I agree, I also find a misoportunity we didnt have an arc with Gaige dealing with those Fake Deathclaps that the father of her dead rival created...
And Krieg returning once learning Maya is dead. They killed his beauty, so now he is unleashing the beast onto them. Hell, imagine if you were given a choice to kill Troy yourself or just let Krieg "finish the job" ...you know he would just wish you just shot him in the head and thats it, Krieg would turn him into a "meat puppet"...

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

The Epic exclusivity payout must not have been enough to spur them into making more Vault Hunters

$8.3 million according to leaks and 2K says BL3 has sold five million copies. Is it really that big?