Bunch of retarded niggers being unable to not shit up threads, also something about legality of threatening a president, I guess

And murdering the person threatening in their own home while knowing that are not able to carry out such threats, without the right to due process and courts is a good thing in your little world?
I've already said that the raid should be investigated to determine if it was proper. That's neither here nor there when it comes to the issue of threatening the President itself. The guy being arrested is completely separate from whether or not the raid was the correct recourse. Those are two different issues.

Where's that behead Trump picture when you need it.
There's a difference between an, albeit very crass, parody, which Kathy Griffin's image rides the line of, and directly threatening someone's life and saying that you are going to personally kill them yourself. Political cartoons basically exist specifically because they are parodies.
 
Threatening to kill the PRESIDENT is not protected by the first amendment.
That's not exactly true. @dustbuster is right about this.
Threatening to kill anyone is not protected by the first amendment, and this has been long standing precedent in the court system.
Have you heard rap music in the last 30 years? You are 100% wrong about this.
And the guy being "blind and crippled" means fuck all. Even if he was blind and crippled, if he walked into a bank with a loaded gun and demanded all the money, he'd be arrested. This is no different.
speech and action are two very different things legally. You can say "I'm going to rob a bank" to your heart's content legally. You can't actually attempt to rob the bank though.
There's a difference between an, albeit very crass, parody, which Kathy Griffin's image rides the line of, and directly threatening someone's life and saying that you are going to personally kill them yourself.
Because of the "true threat" doctrine, there has to be intent to carry out the act. It's perfectly valid to vent your frustrations about the government by saying "I'm going to kill the president for this." It's why the secret service investigates, but does not prosecute, every public threat against the President.
 
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Determining after the fact that the raid was improper won't bring him back to life.
True, but it means the people involved can be brought to justice. After the fact.
That's not exactly true. @dustbuster is right about this.

Have you heard rap music in the last 30 years? You are 100% wrong about this.

speech and action are two very different things legally. You can say "I'm going to rob a bank" to your heart's content legally. You can't actually attempt to rob the bank though.

Because of the "true threat" doctrine, there has to be intent to carry out the act. It's perfectly valid to vent your frustrations about the government by saying "I'm going to kill the president for this." It's why the secret service investigates, but does not prosecute, every public threat against the President.
You need to read the Wikipedia page again. There are criteria by which a person can in fact be arrested for just saying words. There are criteria that will help you defeat a conviction (such as the threat being made "in jest" or under coercion), but won't necessarily prevent you from being arrested. It just means you beat a conviction in court.

That Wikipedia page you cited specifically states:
A defendant's statement that if they got the chance they would harm the president is a threat; merely because a threat has been conditional upon the ability of the defendant to carry it out does not render it any less of a threat
So even a conditional threat still counts as a threat, regardless of whether or not the defendant was able to carry it out or that condition for doing so had a chance to arise.

Meanwhile:
The statute does not penalize imagining, wishing, or hoping that the act of killing the president will be committed by someone else. Conversely, the mailing of letters containing the words "kill Reagan" and depicting the president's bleeding head impaled on a stake was considered a serious threat.
As you can see, the law is somewhat all over the place, but making a direct open statement of your willing intent to kill the president is something that is penalized.

To break the law,
It consists of knowingly and willfully mailing or otherwise making "any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict great bodily harm upon the president of the United States".
So that's what matters here. Did the man make a open threat to injure the President.

Keep in mind, the issue of how the FBI interpreted the law. whether or not the raid on his home was proper, and whether or not he should have been shot are three different legal questions.
 
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The FBI committed a planned execution of a political dissident and did it deliberately knowing there were alternatives that would not result in death.
Everyone trying to defend them is a faggot.
 
The FBI committed a planned execution of a political dissident and did it deliberately knowing there were alternatives that would not result in death.
Everyone trying to defend them is a faggot.
and/or a fed that's blind to their own incompetence.
 
This is literally the opposite of what the Supreme court itself ruled.
This directly contradicts the Wikipedia article you cited, which directly cites United States v. Jasick. You are citing one case among many on this, whose facts don't even mirror the case we are talking about. The Supreme Court, in the Watts case, directly cited extenuating facts in their decision, including, to cite the article you cited, "that Watts made his statements during a political rally, that those who overhead his remarks laughed, and his statement was conditional rather than definitive." Keep in mind, that what was conditional in Watt's statement was whether or not he got drafted, not whether or not he would have a chance to harm the President, which is what was specifically dealt with in Jasick. Two different situations. Courts look at the totality of the circumstances in every case. You can't just cite one case and say automatically that it matters.

The facts in this case don't match the Watts case at all. The man who was killed didn't make one errant statement in an already charged political atmosphere like a political rally, and they weren't obviously a joke, nor were they conditional on something that was outside of killing the president. The man made multiple, open threats towards the president. Dozens of them in fact, over a long period of time. He continued to make threats even after the FBI visited him, and directly referenced their visit. This wasn't one statement made in jest. This was a protracted period of him openly talking about killing the President and other public officials, even showing off his weaponry and equipment.

The FBI committed a planned execution of a political dissident and did it deliberately knowing there were alternatives that would not result in death.
It doesn't matter what you think. If you've got evidence for that, prove it in court.
 
This directly contradicts the Wikipedia article you cited, which directly cites United States v. Jasick.
You either cherry-picked or didn't fully read the article. The Jasick citation is used once, in this section, talking about the history of the law in WW1:

The first prosecutions under the statute, enacted in 1917, occurred during the highly charged, hyperpatriotic years of World War I, and the decisions handed down by the courts in these early cases reflected intolerance for any words demonstrating even a vague spirit of disloyalty.

The link itself refers to Watts v. United States, which was decided in 1969. If you actually read the Watts decision, you would know that the law decided by United States v. Jasick was the one Watts was arrested under. The Supreme Court in 1969, under Watts v. United States, ruled that the law was misapplied in United States v. Jasick and clarified that only True Threats were not constitutionally protected. They added a test known as the Watt Factors to separate free speech from non-protected and criminal threats. There are three factors in consideration:
  1. the context of the statement or statements in question;
  2. the reaction of the recipient or listeners; and
  3. whether the threat was conditional.
On it's face, threatening to kill the President is not a crime. "I'm gonna kill that motherfucker" is a standard part of American vernacular and has been for longer than I've been alive. It is hyperbole that means "I am going to hold X accountable". There has to be a legitimate threat at the President and the ability to carry out a serious attempt at said threat before there is a crime. It's why Kathy Griffin and Eminem get interviewed by Secret Service but not arrested or charged.
 
There's a difference between an, albeit very crass, parody, which Kathy Griffin's image rides the line of, and directly threatening someone's life and saying that you are going to personally kill them yourself. Political cartoons basically exist specifically because they are parodies.
It's a picture of a bloody severed head of the sitting president, how does it count as a parody? What is it parodying? Isn't that "extremism" and "terroristic threats"?
It just boils down to friend/enemy distinction. Threatening the president while friends of the establishment is fine since it is considered parody. Threatening the president while being enemies of the establishment is not.
 
You either cherry-picked or didn't fully read the article. The Jasick citation is used once, in this section, talking about the history of the law in WW1:



The link itself refers to Watts v. United States, which was decided in 1969. If you actually read the Watts decision, you would know that the law decided by United States v. Jasick was the one Watts was arrested under. The Supreme Court in 1969, under Watts v. United States, ruled that the law was misapplied in United States v. Jasick and clarified that only True Threats were not constitutionally protected. They added a test known as the Watt Factors to separate free speech from non-protected and criminal threats. There are three factors in consideration:
  1. the context of the statement or statements in question;
  2. the reaction of the recipient or listeners; and
  3. whether the threat was conditional.
On it's face, threatening to kill the President is not a crime. "I'm gonna kill that motherfucker" is a standard part of American vernacular and has been for longer than I've been alive. It is hyperbole that means "I am going to hold X accountable". There has to be a legitimate threat at the President and the ability to carry out a serious attempt at said threat before there is a crime. It's why Kathy Griffin and Eminem get interviewed by Secret Service but not arrested or charged.
Nothing you said contradicts anything I stated. I specifically brought up all three of the Watts factors, and I specifically pointed to the extenuating facts that led to the Supreme Court's decision. I also brought up how this case actually stands up to the Watts factors and the original Watts case.

Threatening to kill the President IS A CRIME. The only thing that will save you from being convicted is extenuating circumstances and facts that will help defeat a conviction. Note, that these things will help you possibly defeat a conviction but they won't stop you from being arrested and charged. In fact, its illegal to threaten federal officials, judges, politicians, etc. and people get charged with that all the time. According to this article, there were 23 prosecutions for people making threats against President Donald Trump or those in the presidential line of succession in 2018 alone, and that article details multiple convictions for people threatening to kill Trump, Obama, Bush, Jr., etc. There has been a recent rise in people being arrested against making threats against federal officials, including Biden. To say that threatening to kill the President isn't a crime isn't just wrong. Its DANGEROUSLY wrong. Do not threaten the President. Period. Not even jokingly. Its just not worth it.

No there doesn't have to be a legitimate threat against the president or the ability to carry out a serious attempt, that's just wrong. That's not what the law says, nor is that what the Supreme Court has said. That isn't even what the Supreme Court decided in Watts, which is the only case you cite. The Watts factors don't even mention there needing to be an ability to carry out the threat or the threat being legitimate. Kathy Griffin and Eminem were not charged because they could hide behind calling their actions/statements parody. The man in the case that was originally brought up has no such defense. A man was convicted of making phone calls threatening to kill Obama and Maxine Waters. It doesn't matter whether or not he could carry out an attempt. It doesn't matter whether or not it was legitimate threat or just a guy blowing off steam, he called Senator's office and threatened to kill the president, and then call Waters' office directly to threaten her. All he did was make the threat. The law says that anyone who “knowingly and willfully threatens to kill, kidnap, or inflict bodily harm” upon the president, vice president, ex-presidents and ex-vice presidents, members of their families, and presidential and vice presidential candidates or members of their families (within 120 days of the general election) faces up to five years in prison on each count and a $250,000 fine.

Interestingly enough, the first article I cited also explains the actual methodology the Secret Service has when looking into these threats:
Jonathan Wackrow, a former Secret Service agent who was part of Obama’s protective team, says that “a slight variation in language” can mean the difference between agents showing up at your front door or not.

“There is an investigative process that takes a very deep dive into everything I can possibly know about this individual,” Wackrow tells Quartz. “You go backwards and look at past incidents—problems at work, behavioral problems, does this person have access to firearms?”

Agents then assign a risk rating to each person who make a threat that is discovered. The higher the rating, the more attention they can expect to get from agents. Check-ins can include a periodic email, a phone call, or an in-person interview. The ones who seem most prone to violence might find a Secret Service vehicle parked outside their home when the president is in their town.

“What we’re looking for are changes in behavioral patterns,” says Wackrow. “Everybody who makes a threat against the president doesn’t get arrested, but we keep track of them and many times that’s what keeps them from transcending into physical action.”
So no, not everybody who makes threats gets the knock at their door. Most probably just get put on a list. The Secret Service do do a threat assessment. What almost certainly got the guy in the original case we are talking about flagged was the shear volume of threats he made, the fact that he did in fact own firearms and a ghillie suit, and directly alluded to killing Biden the next time he was in Utah. Add on the fact that the guy kept up the threats after the FBI had visited him and let him know they were watching him only pushed him to the top of the list.

It's a picture of a bloody severed head of the sitting president, how does it count as a parody? What is it parodying? Isn't that "extremism" and "terroristic threats"?
It just boils down to friend/enemy distinction. Threatening the president while friends of the establishment is fine since it is considered parody. Threatening the president while being enemies of the establishment is not.
It wasn't a direct threat upon the President's life. Kathy didn't say she was going to cut off Trump's head. She didn't allude to wanting to behead him the next time she saw him. She didn't threaten to personally do him bodily harm. Her little stunt is probably no worse than some the vile shit that gets shown as political rallies. Poor taste? You bet your ass. And she did get a visit from the Feds for it. But what saved her is that she didn't make a direct threat towards Trump.
 
No there doesn't have to be a legitimate threat against the president or the ability to carry out a serious attempt, that's just wrong. That's not what the law says, nor is that what the Supreme Court has said. That isn't even what the Supreme Court decided in Watts, which is the only case you cite. The Watts factors don't even mention there needing to be an ability to carry out the threat or the threat being legitimate. Kathy Griffin and Eminem were not charged because they could hide behind calling their actions/statements parody.
Again, what art was she parodying?

It wasn't a direct threat upon the President's life. Kathy didn't say she was going to cut off Trump's head. She didn't allude to wanting to behead him the next time she saw him. She didn't threaten to personally do him bodily harm.
It's a severed head with herself in the picture holding it up.

Her little stunt is probably no worse than some the vile shit that gets shown as political rallies. Poor taste? You bet your ass. And she did get a visit from the Feds for it. But what saved her is that she didn't make a direct threat towards Trump.
Seems pretty clear that she wants to kill the president personally.
 
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Again, what art was she parodying?
Political satire is probably the better word here, admittedly.

It's a severed head with herself in the picture holding it up.
Seems pretty clear that she wants to kill the president personally.
You think that was bad, you should read some political comics or go to a political march. The point is, she didn't come out and say "I'm going to kill the president" or "I want to kill the president", or "I'm planning to kill the president". There has to be stated threat or intent.

Hey, anyone want to talk about Chinese Military Operations in Taiwan?
Sure, if people stop trying to equivocate China and the U.S.
 
You think that was bad, you should read some political comics or go to a political march. The point is, she didn't come out and say "I'm going to kill the president" or "I want to kill the president", or "I'm planning to kill the president". There has to be stated threat or intent.
Why do you think threats are rare? It was simply a matter of friend/foe distinction.

Sure, if people stop trying to equivocate China and the U.S.
This we can agree, China doesn't pretend to be all freedomz.
 
And a visual representation of you're desired action is not?
Whether or not Kathy desired Trump to be beheaded, was merely saying that it was better if he was beheaded, or was stating that she was fantasizing about him being beheaded is uncertain. But that's the point. It was picture, with multiple interpretations. But it wasn't a direct statement of her intent to go behead Trump. Remember, the law states anyone who “knowingly and willfully threatens to kill, kidnap, or inflict bodily harm” upon the president, vice president, ex-presidents and ex-vice presidents, members of their families, and presidential and vice presidential candidates or members of their families (within 120 days of the general election) faces up to five years in prison on each count and a $250,000 fine. You have to knowingly and willingly threaten. Simply holding up a prop head of Trump with fake blood isn't enough to meet that.

Why do you think threats are rare? It was simply a matter of friend/foe distinction.
That's the point. Threats are rare because they aren't protected speech. So you can be held accountable for making them.
 
But it wasn't a direct statement of her intent to go behead Trump
It's not a piece of abstract art.

You have to knowingly and willingly threaten. Simply holding up a prop head of Trump with fake blood isn't enough to meet that.
You could have made that argument if the head was not made to resemble anyone in particular, except it was clear what the "act" was, who the "perpetrator" and the "victim" is as depicted in the picture. Kathy knowingly and willingly threatened bodily harm to a specific person. She is even showing her face on the picture to link herself to the threat being made.

That's the point. Threats are rare because they aren't protected speech. So you can be held accountable for making them.
Have you been sleeping away the decade? Is it only a threat and unprotected speech if successfully charged and prosecuted? Do you work from the reverse position?
 
In hopes to stop you retards from shitting up other places, I will resolve your little discussion.

It doesn't matter (constitutionally) if you threaten a normal person (Counterman v. Colorado (2023)) or the president (Watts v. United States, 394 U.S. 705, 708 (1969)), the legal standard is whether or not it is a true threat. True threats have no First Amendment protection. See Counterman v. Colorado (2023), Virginia v. Black, 538 U.S. 343 (2003), and Watts v. United States, 394 U.S. 705, 708 (1969). The 'true' in the phrase 'True threat' signifies that this is not hyperbole. See Counterman v. Colorado (2023). "True Threats" are defined as "serious expressions conveying that a speaker means to commit an act of unlawful violence". See Counterman v. Colorado (2023). The standard on whether your threat is a "True Threat" is recklessness. A person acts recklessly, in the most common formulation, when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the conduct will cause harm to another. See Counterman v. Colorado (2023).

There is literally nothing for you to disagree with here. This is the law in its most up to date SCOTUS interpretation.
 
The FBI committed a planned execution of a political dissident and did it deliberately knowing there were alternatives that would not result in death.
Everyone trying to defend them is a faggot.
Don't assume malice where incompetence can be explained. That being said no one cares if the feds kill fifty trump supporters. Trump= Nazi and killing Nazis is good. Lefties are just waiting for their excuse to kill right wingers. Talk to some of these lefty types they would love to kill the boomer business owners who live in mcmansions and kill them.
Your average millennial is a bitter socialist who hates the fact they will never get ahead compared to boomers.
and/or a fed that's blind to their own incompetence.
Leaning more on the incompetence side of things.
 
Don't assume malice where incompetence can be explained.

Unfortunately incompetence is ruled out here.
They turned the eye of the panopticon upon him.
They had him surveilled physically, electronically, and financially.

They knew when he was running low on groceries, when he went to church, when he flushed the toilet.
They knew he couldn't stand up without a cane and that he slept with a gun under his pillow.

This means they had the option of arresting him when he left his home, using the pretext of a traffic stop.
They instead chose intentionally to engineer his death by breaking in unannounced in the dark.
 
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