Science Can we have an open debate about IQ, genes, and group differences? - If only null would give us our rainbows back


Ionce spoke to a human geneticist who declared that the notion of intelligence was quite meaningless, so I tried calling him unintelligent. He was annoyed …
– Nobel Prize laureate, Peter Medawar
Of all the endless nature vs nurture arguments, the debate over intelligence and ‘race’ is the most toxic. It also seeps over into wider unease with human genetic research; the fear, for example, that recent advances in ancient human DNA analysis can be used by those with nefarious intentions to resurrect problematic ‘race’ folk theories.

Given this seeming potential for reviving damaging beliefs, some scholars question whether “we would be better off to give up on particular lines of research” in the human sciences, including “the quest to trace patterns of human migration.” Others, meanwhile, argue for “tighter restrictions” on research into cognitive differences between different human populations. That said, the impetus to explore our ancestral evolution and its impacts remains an essential scientific pursuit, as it is at the backbone of research exploring how human differences impact disease and potential targeted cures.

Such arguments about ‘race’, intelligence and possible censorship were of particular concern to US-born and educated New Zealand scientist and intelligence researcher James Flynn, who died in December 2020, aged 86. Flynn was the IQ debate’s great scholarly champion of environment over genes, known for his respectful rebuke of scholars who took a more deterministic view of the complex relationship of intelligence, genes, and the environment.

IQ and tests​

This century-long debate flared in 1969 following the publication of an article in the Harvard Educational Review, in which psychologist Arthur Jensen claimed that observed IQ differences between Blacks and Whites was due mainly to genetics. Jensen further argued for a reset on the poverty reforms that were then rolling out under the Johnson Administration, arguing that compensatory education programs that assumed racial groups were ‘blank slates’ with environment alone the only detriment to equality of performance—Head Start, for example—were destined to fail.

The article caused an uproar that still rages. Jensen, who died in 2012, was widely denounced as a racist, particularly in the popular press and by social scientists. Instead, Jensen’s critics maintained that environmental factors rather than genes passed along in ancestral cohorts almost entirely explained racial disparities in test scores, a radical environmentalist position that few hard scientists hold today.

This was also when the movement to end the use of IQ tests first emerged. Today, persistent differences in SAT or ACT results among races have been cited as a reason to stop using the exam in college admissions. Last May, many University of California colleges announced they was scrapping its SAT or ACT requirement, as have many other American universities.

Flynn vs Jensen​

Having migrated to New Zealand in 1963 “to escape the political repression of the McCarthy era”, Flynn, now based at the University of Otago in Dunedin, responded skeptically to Jensen’s claims. And understandably so. For instance, how could Jensen explain away Flynn’s voluminous documentation that IQ scores among racial and ethnic groups world-wide have risen considerably from one generation to the next? In the 20th century, Flynn discovered, the scores of entire countries rose by more than the Black-White disparity in the entire US. How could that be if IQ was genetically ‘fixed’? He summarized much of this research in a ground-breaking response to Jensen published in 1980.

In 1987, in an article in American Psychologist, Jensen praised Flynn’s criticism of his own work:

… I am asked by colleagues, students, and journalists: who, in my opinion, are the most respectable critics of my position on the race-IQ issue? The name James R. Flynn is by far the first that comes to mind. His book, Race, IQ and Jensen (1980), is a distinguished contribution to the literature on this topic, and, among the critiques I have seen of my position, is virtually in a class by itself for objectivity, thoroughness, and scholarly integrity.
In a study released in 2006, Flynn and a co-author, William Dickens, concluded that Black Americans had gained as many as seven IQ points on Whites since the early 1970s and into the 1990s, a finding that is hard to explain if intelligence is genetically fixed. The theory that Flynn developed was dubbed “The Flynn Effect” by scholars Richard Hernnstein and Charles Murray, co-authors of The Bell Curve: Intelligence and class structure in American life, the 1994 tome that faced similar harsh criticism as Jensen’s earlier expressed views.

In the decades since, numerous explanations of the Flynn effect have been proposed, as well as some skepticism about what has driven it and its implications. For example, there is intense debate about whether the rise in IQ scores corresponds to a rise in general intelligence or only a rise in special skills related to taking IQ tests, as schools have been turned into test-taking hot houses, in part because teacher salaries and administrative jobs are often tied to raising test scores.

Others argue that the Flynn Effect’s observed gains in IQ over time are unrelated to ‘g’ (also known as ‘general intelligence’) that many psychometricians believe is a fairly unchangeable mental capacity. (‘g’-scores are used in many professions to predict performance; e.g., the US military and even the National Football League, with its Wonderlic test, utilize g-weighted tests in their evaluations).

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In parallel with the measured gains in IQ scores, long-term declines have been found for “mental speed, digit span backwards, the use of difficult words, and color acuity, all of which are related to intelligence.” More recently, the Flynn effect appears to be fading, as the IQ measure distance between some populations and others has grown. Research suggests that there is now a decline in IQ scores, in Norway, Denmark, Australia, Britain, the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, France and German-speaking countries, a development which appears to have started in the 1990s. The Flynn effect appeared to have most influenced people born during the mid-1970s (co-incidentally a period of dramatic social transformation on racial issues), and has significantly declined ever since.

Flynn himself relished the debates that his research had stimulated. A life-long social democrat, he was outspoken in defence of free speech, including the right — indeed, the desirability — of open and honest debate on possible group differences in intelligence.

And this willingness to engage with those holding different opinions readily explains the reaction to news of Flynn’s death by his peers. Cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker, a sharp critic of ‘blank slate’ post-modernist critical theory, immediately expressed sadness at the passing of a “defender of Enlightenment ideals”. Of particular note was the response of The Bell Curve co-author and conservative political scientist Charles Murray:

By America’s current standards of academic discourse, Jim Flynn and I should have been at each other’s throats,” Murray said. “We did in fact have different perspectives, though more nuanced than most people thought.
But those differences hadn’t the slightest effect on Jim’s collegiality toward me or any of the people with whom he disagreed. … How else are you going to learn, Jim thought, except by engaging with people who see things differently? … Jim represented what a scholar is supposed to be—open, curious, passionate about his beliefs but without either self-righteousness or rancor, determined above all else to get it right.

Unfortunately, while scholars are supposed to be open and curious, much of the passion and argument over ‘race’ and IQ has been self-righteous and rancorous. As Flynn himself readily acknowledged, those least open to discussion and most ready to censor opposing opinions, frequently came from his own leftist end of the political spectrum.

These were the ones, he argued, “who boycott debate” and “put their money on indoctrination and intimidation”, thereby “forfeit[ing] a chance to persuade”. (Here, Flynn’s position reflects characterizations of critical theory proponents that conservatives see as promoters of ‘cancel culture’.)

How to argue with a racist​

In his recent bestselling book, How to Argue With a Racist, geneticist Adam Rutherford emphasises the need “to equip [people] with the scientific tools necessary to tackle questions on race, genes and ancestry” and “to provide a foundation to contest racism that appears to be grounded in science”.

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Jim Flynn, too, had long pointed to this danger — that without an understanding of the scientific arguments, “humane-egalitarian” idealists would flounder against informed and articulate racists.

Censoring debate about the subject would then be doubly counter-productive, further removing the knowledge needed to challenge genuinely racist arguments or, more importantly, the political conclusions that arise from racist misinterpretations of human biological research. That’s the thrust of the argument made in GLP founder’s Jon Entine controversial but critically-praised book, 2000 Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We are Afraid to Talk About Them, in which he wrote:

Although discussing racial differences is likely to provoke strong reactions, on balance and in proper context strong emotions are healthy. …
The “why” of human differences–black/white, male/female, Italian/Irish, between Slavic ethnic groups or one African tribe and another–is likely to remain only crudely measurable. Race–marked by skin color, ethnicity, and geography–is a fuzzy concept. …The challenge is in whether we can conduct the debate so that human diversity might be cause for celebration of our individuality rather than fanning distrust.
In one of his last essays on this topic, Flynn re-emphasised what “Those who want to forbid discussion and scientific investigation ignore”, for instance, the ability to defend your position with facts “rather than just right opinion” and the opportunity to hone your argument by having its weaknesses revealed. “[T]ruth gains vitality from being challenged rather than being an unquestioned inheritance,” he argued.

To kill an idea is to forfeit all rewards that may flow from reaction to that idea. If I had not read about [research into group differences], with its emphasis on IQ and the general intelligence factor, I would never have documented massive IQ gain over time, or urged a revolution in the theory of intelligence, or connected cognitive gains and moral gains …
In contrast to Flynn, those who argue against open discussion of contentious science fear it will breathe new life into socially harmful ideas, akin to publicising the details of how to build “massively destructive bombs” or to create “deadly viruses”. And on their side of the argument is the undeniable fact that past beliefs about racial superiority/inferiority caused incalculable harm.

Nevertheless, the analogy with socially destructive bombs and viruses implies that everyone, regardless of existing political beliefs or values, would suffer through public debate of sensitive issues. Yet is this really the case? If, for example, evidence of genetic differences between racial populations was more widely discussed, would this inevitably lead more people to become racists? We believe not; the egalitarian moral belief that people should be treated equally is not dependent on people actually being equal in all respects.

Of course, given the odious history of twisted interpretations of Darwinian theories of ‘race’, some form of use or abuse analysis of proposed research is warranted. As part of this, though, the detrimental consequences of creating taboos on discussion must also be taken into account (for instance, conceding the argument to racist ideologues who may present themselves as simply telling the unpalatable ‘truth’ that others are too scared to discuss).

In the absence of a scientifically accurate account of racial diversity, we cannot adequately challenge pseudo-scientific racist arguments. In addition, avoiding discussion of human biological diversity may limit our understanding of the genetic basis of disease and hamper medical research that could improve peoples’ lives.

Genes do not determine values or identity​

The problem here is egalitarians tying their political values to actual facts about human biology; the mistaken belief that moral equality is dependent on all people being biologically or psychologically the same. Yet as Pinker argued in The Blank Slate: The modern denial of human nature, when scientific evidence appears to conflict with political values, “people are tempted to suppress the facts and to clamp down on debate … leav[ing] us unequipped to deal with just those problems for which new facts and analyses are most needed”.screen shot at am

Geneticist David Reich has made much the same point about those who decry genetic research into human diversity as inherently racist. The “well-meaning people” who deny likely genetic differences between different human populations, Reich suggested, “are digging themselves into an indefensible position, one that will not survive the onslaught of science”.

And Flynn too emphasises where attempts at censorship miss their mark: “Suppressing free inquiry is by its nature an expressive of contempt for truth by power. The truth can never be racist.”

With regard to intelligence research, far from being ‘massively destructive’, such studies could, in future, prove hugely beneficial, especially in education. Without a clear understanding of human cognitive development, and how it is determined by both genes and environment, we are hamstrung in our attempts to improve an existing education system that persistently frustrates so many. Indeed, by ignoring the biological side of the interplay between genes and environment, we may be simply setting up many young people to fail, generation after generation. Those promoting practical uses of “personal genomics,” for instance, see the potential for tailoring education to reflect the needs and the abilities of individual learners, rather than forcing all learners into a one-size-fits-all system.

As for Flynn, he admitted to having “no illusions … that the debate over race and IQ will end.

And I do not deny that it could have social and political consequences. Perhaps someday we will conclude that a portion of the present gap will prove to be genetic in origin. I do not want to sugar the pill but will only say I am not too alarmed.
Yet even if the “worst case scenario” of ineluctable differences in cognitive ability proved to be the case (which is far from certain), this does not destroy the humane-egalitarian desire to create a better future society. After all, if everyone had a decent standard of living, much of the heat linking biology with racial inequality would fade — a point Flynn illustrated with joking reference to his own Irish ancestry:

Assume that the lower job profile of Irish Americans compared to Chinese Americans is due in part to genes: I do not know one Irishman who cares (the English would be a different matter).
For the first time in history science, promises a glimpse of how the world’s different populations — popularly and simplistically called races — have evolved. Going forward, the tsunami of information genetic research is now unlocking will revolutionize medicine, as we develop targeted, personalized response to diseases based on individual and group inheritance. Research on the brain is just part of that mostly-promising and optimistic enterprise.

In his reflections on Human Diversity, a book that came out shortly before Flynn’s death, Charles Murray pointedly suggested that many of those most opposed to research on the brain and IQ mistakenly equate human intelligence with human worth. That’s understandable. With these caveats in mind, it is perhaps fitting here to leave the last word to Murray, Flynn’s supposed great adversary: in losing Jim Flynn, he says, “We have lost an exemplar”.
 
I could be convinced that there are group differences in intelligence, but the truth of the matter is that our society doesn't make enough use of intelligence for it to matter. As long as you're intelligent enough to be able to read and write, hold down a job, and not get mindraped by strangers CWC-style, that should suffice. We always talk about bridges collapsing and planes falling from the sky, but very, very few people work on that sort of stuff, and we're in no danger of having too few intelligent people to staff the Department of Planes and Bridges.

If it were shown that one population or another produced significantly more people who aren't intelligent enough to participate in society, that would be another story altogether. But I don't think we've seen evidence of anything like that.
Half the black American population meet the old definition of mental retardation, which had to be changed (to 2 SD below average) to avoid this. The single SD Ashkenazi advantage is sufficient for even this miniscule population to be predominant at the highest levels of intelligence.

I would guess you need at least 5% of your population to be above 110 or so if you want to hold a society together at the most basic level, keep the power plants running, the water running, etc.

Intelligence in blacks also has a narrower SD than in whites (12 vs 15 -- something like that). So a population with an IQ average of 70 will produce an Einstein (maybe IQ 180) every few trillion years. In practice not even that, because all the necessary alleles probably don't even exist in the given population.

I personally don't give a shit if the male mean is 101 and the female mean is 99. I see sexists argue "LOL, women are dumb and need to go make me a sammich" and that's just tardery.

I'm also a believer that the curve for males is flatter and has longer tails than the curve for women. So yeah, you have more men who are hyper-geniuses.

I think the things that get missed are male culture and male autism.

Men are more likely to form cliques around shared interests, and the culture of "Git gud, scrub" is pervasive within these groups. Women can be viciously competitive within their interest groups, but men are usually more good-natured and team oriented.

Men are also more likely to be complete autists. Women don't do things like trainspotting, and shit like making model planes or rockets isn't exclusively male, but when women do it, it's not an all-consuming interest.

Looping back around to IQ in general, I've heard tell that the correlation between IQ and life skills is not uniform between the races. I'd argue that's true for the sexes, too. I've seen it said that a white man with an 85 IQ is hard pressed to tie his own shoes, but a black man with an 85 IQ can be a productive member of society with no obvious deficits. Men of every IQ seem to have more problems with basic life skills than most women do. Some of the smartest men I've ever met were basically incapable of handling things like food preparation or keeping their living space reasonably tidy. Whereas I've known some really stupid women who could run a household with 5 kids like it was nothing.

People are interesting.
There is a well-known phenomenon of blacks of similar low (retarded) IQ being much more functional than whites -- in large part probably because a black with an IQ of 70 is normal, just unfortunate in falling on the left side of the bell curve. A white with an IQ of 70 has probably had something go very wrong: he will probably look like a stereotypical retard, with weird gait, mannerisms and speech, and possibly other intellectual deficits. The black guy will just be dull. He will also probably be much better at learning because blacks have a much better memory (more or less the same as whites of a SD higher) than you would suspect.

Rushton wrote a brief note here


about the "winning personality" of a lot of blacks. Basically, they come into his class, seem charming, well-informed, and their contributions are funny and valued ... but when it comes time to grade their work, it becomes clear that they didn't really understand anything at all. People are taken in their ability to banter, which is much higher than whites of comparative ability.

Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying drive me crazy with their dancing around this issue. They're evolutionary biologists, but their official stance on evolution above the neck is basically, "high intelligence would be a benefit no matter what environment you evolved in anywhere on the planet, and so evolutionary intelligence gaps between ethnic groups would be illogical."

Even as a layman I know that doesn't track. Let's put aside that that's clearly reasoning towards a palatable conclusion. Let's put aside that bigger brains and higher cognition are costly from a calorie requirement/child development standpoint. (And maybe all humans passed that evolutionary hurdle by definition, I don't know... it's not as if African tribes have children that are quicker to get up and walk around post-birth, is it? And are there average calorie intake differences between ethnic groups?) And let's put aside what seems obvious to me, that different environments (with different survival challenges), isolated from one another, would not apply the same level of demand for higher evolved cognitive skills across the board.

Even if you assumed equality in all those things... why would each isolated ethnic group randomly arrive at the same I.Q. average? (Does anything in evolution work like that? I'm genuinely asking.) And wouldn't that have left us with the same basic percentage of autist-level geniuses per ethnic group?

Even if they're being honest and they're correct, the fact that this stuff can't be openly debated makes it so difficult to find the best answers to related questions. I mean, you still have ostensibly intelligent people popularizing the "blacks are on average better athletes because slavery was a form of selection for physical traits" garbage. (Excuse me if I'm skeptical of any theory that feeds right into the "blacks are victims and whites are defined by the evils of slavery" narrative.)


LMAO imagine unironically using the term "problematic" in the face of scientific evidence you don't like.

An excellent book I would recommend to you (you can find it on libgen.is) is the 10,000 Year Explosion, which covers the enormous amount of evolution that occurred in the last 10,000 years.

We have genome-wide association studies (GWAS) now that allows us to analyze massive genomic databases in conjunction with known personal information (height, IQ, etc) to tell the effect of individual genes. For IQ and height, these are linear, with relevant alleles having tiny cumulative (positive or negative) effects that in their totality account for the differences between individuals as well as populations. This is well-known enough now that we can use someone's genotype to produce a genomic IQ that correlates highly with IQ as determined in a psychologist's office.

Anyway, the book in question made a good case that the IQ difference between the Ashkenazi and Europeans is recent and certainly no older than I think half a millennium, I think. Indeed it is so recent that evolution has yet to spit out the lipid storage diseases that seem to have resulted from culture forcing such a rapid evolution in intelligence.
 
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There is a well-known phenomenon of blacks of similar low (retarded) IQ being much more functional than whites
Then shouldn't it really be "functionalness" (FQ, if you will) that we should care about when making social policy, outside of making sure the Dept. of Rocket Science is fully staffed? In principle I don't really care if someone is 100 IQ or a 70 IQ jogger whose memory picks up the slack for his intelligence, as long as they can be a productive member of society who doesn't constantly tard out.
 
Then shouldn't it really be "functionalness" (FQ, if you will) that we should care about when making social policy, outside of making sure the Dept. of Rocket Science is fully staffed? In principle I don't really care if someone is 100 IQ or a 70 IQ jogger whose memory picks up the slack for his intelligence, as long as they can be a productive member of society who doesn't constantly tard out.
This is already done to the extent that mental retardation isn't diagnosed on IQ alone. I would guess that it is a pretty small fraction of black IQ 70s who have a diagnosis, or come across, at least in casual conversation, as obviously impaired. Have you seen Making a Murderer by any chance? Steven Avery's IQ as well as Brendan's are both in the 70s -- but they are functionally as different as can be imagined. Anyway this is really only relevant to the small number of people to the far left of the bell curve in any case, although I might mention blacks' (and Jews') verbal abilities are disproportionately good compared to other traits (asians the opposite).

P.S. if you are interested in the history of flight, Bob Hoover's (the best pilot other than Chuck Yeager, in Chuck Yeager's opinion) cognitive assessments are discussed in the judgment here:


I found this fascinating, in part because he remained capable of doing aerobatics for many years after this was written. It is actually good reading in any event and does well in explaining how cognitive defects are assessed.
 
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Reading through this thread is interesting. What makes an IQ is multi-faceted, yet some people still cling to race as the make-or-break characteristic that determines it, when in reality it's not just race, but environment, sex, upbringing, genes, etc.. Even if your IQ is low, it doesn't lock you into being a retard forever, but you may excel in one or two things while faltering in others. I'm terrible at math, but it's my mom's favorite subject. Art is something I can excel in as well as visualization. She was also an artist. Things I can't visualize, such as complex math or code, stump me. Does it make me dumb? In those aspects, sure; however, it also means that my strengths lie elsewhere beyond the mathematical sphere. People are just different, and that's okay. Doesn't make it racist or sexist.
 
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Reading through this thread is interesting. What makes an IQ is multi-faceted, yet some people still cling to race as the make-or-break characteristic that determines it, when in reality it's not just race, but environment, sex, upbringing, genes, etc.. Even if your IQ is low, it doesn't lock you into being a retard forever, but you may excel in one or two things while faltering in others. I'm terrible at math, but it's my mom's favorite subject. Art is something I can excel in as well as visualization. She was also an artist. Things I can't visualize, such as complex math or code, stump me. Does it make me dumb? In those aspects, sure; however, it also means that my strengths lie elsewhere beyond the mathematical sphere. People are just different, and that's okay. Doesn't make it racist or sexist.
IQ at something like 24 years of age is about 80% heritable. Environmental factors that have an impact are things like: getting dropped on the head, severe malnutrition and heavy metal poisioning. Having say a good techer does nothing measureble in adulthood. Race is only relevant if the race has a higher or lower mean IQ and they do.

The consequences of this are not nice or fun but do you want to keep destroying resources and money to feel good? So you can feel no child left behind makes a difference?
 
The consequences of this are not nice or fun but do you want to keep destroying resources and money to feel good? So you can feel no child left behind makes a difference?
Are you asking me personally? I'm not disagreeing with anybody that IQ is insignificant. It IS significant; however, the first topic that comes up with IQ is race, when it's more than just race, but other aspects that are important. You say severe malnutrition, heavy metal poisoning, and injury, but then say having a good teacher "does nothing in adulthood." Well, what about child- and teenhood? That's a whole decade and a half. You're barely an adult in your mid-20s. The brain doesn't even reach peak development until then.

There's also aspects like fitness (which heightens brain function) and diet. It's not just a matter of severe malnutrition, but also if the kid is getting the right carbs, less sugars, healthy fats, etc.. Not to mention social and emotional factors such as family and faith structures. You have so many little things that watering it down seems a disservice. Treat your kid right and immerse them in a good faith, family, social, and education structure and--barring genetic defects and intellectual disabilities--they'll be okay.

Pushing all that aside, my main concern is when people start treating a low IQ as a death sentence, or as something that devalues the person instead of looking at the whole person. It's definitely not a death sentence, and it's definitely not the person's fault if they have a low IQ. That burden belongs on the parents. It gives my Christian upbringing a kneejerk reaction because it's simply not grounds to treat low IQ people as lesser beings. That's why I said being different is okay. I don't mean it in the SJW way, I mean it in the "don't treat low IQ people as destructive mongrels on society and give them basic human decency" way.
 
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Are you asking me personally? I'm not disagreeing with anybody that IQ is insignificant. It IS significant; however, the first topic that comes up with IQ is race, when it's more than just race, but other aspects that are important. You say severe malnutrition, heavy metal poisoning, and injury, but then say having a good teacher "does nothing in adulthood." Well, what about child- and teenhood? That's a whole decade and a half. You're barely an adult in your mid-20s. The brain doesn't even reach peak development until then.
I think you are missing the point, which is that all known interventions fail to make any difference when you come back and look at the study group as adults. If an intervention raised intelligence, then that would not be the case, obviously.

Environment (as in the shared environment that you and I are exposed to) does not seem to have much effect on IQ at all.
 
I think the majority of psychology is junk science, including IQ tests. I think environment makes the difference.
We know with 100% certainty that this is false. Psychometrics is by far the most well-studied and evidence-based area in psychology, and hundreds of people deeply familiar with statistics have looked at the data and come to the same conclusion. First, IQ correlates highly with life outcomes. Second, IQ correlates highly with ability on ... well, pretty much anything ... if you wanted to be politically correct and come up with an IQ test based on how well you can draw a circle it probably would give you at least some useful information. Even five minute ten question vocabulary tests correlate something like 90% with multi-hour formal IQ tests; the SAT, though ostensibly knowledge-based, even better. Third, following from the second point, IQ is stable over different tests and multiple years and to the degree that the relevant test correlates with g (intelligence, of which IQ tries to measure). There is nothing intrinsic to the field of psychometrics that requires that it be impossible to raise one's intelligence through hard work or education but the fact that this does not seem to be possible does make it easier for psychometricians. Fourth, IQ correlates with what common sense would expect -- brain size, reflex speed, myelin conductivity speed, good brain co-ordination as determined by PET results etc. Fifth, despite enormous effort, no one has been able to come up with a "politically correct" IQ test, which does suggest it is measuring something real, surely. Sixth, factor analysis (very complex statistics beyond me) has been used very successfully to break down intelligence into its elements -- we know that high-intelligence relies on a combination of crystallised intelligence, short-term memory, processing speed, etc. and know the extent to which these affect intelligence). You could literally work backwards after measuring any one of these things to predict someone's IQ, if you wanted. Seventh, and most fatally for denialist conspiracy theorists, we have genome-wide association studies that can be used after you get your genome sequenced to give a genomic IQ, which correlates extremely well with measured IQ and is only getting better as we learn the contributions of individual alleles to intelligence. The data are extremely overwhelming and it is obvious how easy it would be to disprove the IQ case if it were not true. If you take a profession that has high demand like physics and then find that there is not a single physicist with an IQ below 120 ... would that not indicate that it is showing you something useful? The case against IQ is basically the same as saying that "stature" has nothing to do with "measured height" and using examples like saying that one tape measure has you at five foot eleven and another five foot ten. Would you take seriously the claim of someone that even though he is continually measured by ruler at four foot that he is actually at least six foot, because the height results from rulers only correlate 0.95 with an eyeball estimate or 0.99 with more advanced measurement methods?

Oh, and I didn't even mention adoption studies. Whites adopted by blacks have IQs of around 100. Blacks adopted by whites have IQs of around 85. Adopted-out twins have IQs much closer to one another than to their adoptive families.

Also -- would you agree that some people are dull and some clever, e.g. that they are not equally intelligent or born with equal potential? If so, why would you expect groups, necessarily comprised of such differing individuals, to somehow be identical? And why would evolution not apply to intelligence, and is that particular to humans, or could one educate an animal to become a physicist too?
 
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Does anyone else recognize this feeling: that we're about to go over a cliff and into a chasm in total silence because of the lack of debate around genetic editing and IQ specifically?

What happens when you have a population of genetically altered humans with an average IQ of 180 surrounded by the unelevated?
 
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Does anyone else recognize this feeling: that we're about to go over a cliff and into a chasm in total silence because of the lack of debate around genetic editing and IQ specifically?

What happens when you have a population of genetically altered humans with an average IQ of 180 surround by the unelevated?
Goddamnit I did not want the Coordinator led future of Gundam Seed.
 
I could be convinced that there are group differences in intelligence, but the truth of the matter is that our society doesn't make enough use of intelligence for it to matter. As long as you're intelligent enough to be able to read and write, hold down a job, and not get mindraped by strangers CWC-style, that should suffice. We always talk about bridges collapsing and planes falling from the sky, but very, very few people work on that sort of stuff, and we're in no danger of having too few intelligent people to staff the Department of Planes and Bridges.

If it were shown that one population or another produced significantly more people who aren't intelligent enough to participate in society, that would be another story altogether. But I don't think we've seen evidence of anything like that.
I think the main problem of intelligence is where it concerns students and how leaders in education have chosen to respond to test scores.

Even with the standards of education having been lowered and lowered and lowered again since the '60s in the US, blacks are lagging behind. The ACT and SAT have been dumbed down too since that time, and now there are more allowances (such as use of a calculator). All those efforts have been wasted, as the only thing it did was hinder everyone's learning rather than allow blacks to keep up with or exceed whites.
 
I mean, the topic has been debated to hell and back in every place that is even allowed to state that there are group differences in intelligence, and the huge social ramifications of that fact. I remember the time when a cell of the sceptics led by an autistic german sperged out about it, because it completely ruins their egalitarian worldview that states that only bad policies or bad culture can hold a race or ethnic group back, never biological reasons. They got completely btfo'd of course, but they still hold that view, as does almost everyone in the west. In public atleast.

For everyone interested in the fact, I read a book lately that was pretty good. It is called "In the Know, Debunking 35 myths about intelligence" by Russell T Warne.
It goes over many myths that liberal science students believe about intelligence research and IQ in itself. It is easily read and not overly complicated and a good point to start for people who haven't looked into the subject more than memes from /pol/ and egalitarian hogwash from media and politics. 41Ym2jCJwVL.jpg
 
There's no actual debate to be had on the question of 'Are there group differences'. Because the answer is yes, and yes they are significant, and yes they track for life outcome, and socioeconomic success, and criminality. Intelligence and its links are old and pretty well understood.

The real shit we should be looking at are things like in group preferences, agreeableness, disgust reactions and other such things that we're not sure are heavily heritable. They're far more important than 'Yes, retards shouldn't be rocket scientists'; but until we acknowledge that retards exist, and race exists, and they matter; we can't actually get anything done on fixing things.
I hope so much that I am still alive when real science can finally be done in this area.

I spend my time alternating between time spent with ethnic groups with high trait agreeableness and groups with low to moderate and it’s clearly hereditary and clearly has massive cultural implications. And it’s also clearly a lot more complicated than meets the eye - like is it an accident that two groups of people who obviously are genetically high trait agreeableness, Mexicans with more indigenous heritage and SE Asians, share a tendency towards cut-your-balls-off violent sexual jealousy? Where is my pop science documentary on this subject?
 
I think the main problem of intelligence is where it concerns students and how leaders in education have chosen to respond to test scores.

Even with the standards of education having been lowered and lowered and lowered again since the '60s in the US, blacks are lagging behind. The ACT and SAT have been dumbed down too since that time, and now there are more allowances (such as use of a calculator). All those efforts have been wasted, as the only thing it did was hinder everyone's learning rather than allow blacks to keep up with or exceed whites.

"Dumbing down" a standardised test will not preclude it differentiating students by ability unless (as indeed occurs with the math portion of the SAT from what I have heard -- I am not American, so not familiar with it) it occurs to such an extent that a significant number of students get perfect or near-perfect scores, i.e. failing to distinguish between 98th and 99.99th percentile students. Universities probably would rather the SAT be an IQ test anyway if they could get away with it -- it's easy to teach content but impossible to make someone smarter -- so dumbing down the test to minimize the prerequisite knowledge actually helps steer it away from testing crystallised, and towards fluid, intelligence. I understand how it might offend one's sense of propriety to look at sample SAT questions that seem to take it for granted that the high-schooler is mentally impaired, but so long as the results give you a bell curve, the test serves its purpose. That is not to say it is optimal of course. Pretty much everything correlates with IQ so you could probably devise an equally effective test by giving a vocabulary quiz of ten words or so (0.9 correlation with IQ, I hear!).

I hope so much that I am still alive when real science can finally be done in this area.

I spend my time alternating between time spent with ethnic groups with high trait agreeableness and groups with low to moderate and it’s clearly hereditary and clearly has massive cultural implications. And it’s also clearly a lot more complicated than meets the eye - like is it an accident that two groups of people who obviously are genetically high trait agreeableness, Mexicans with more indigenous heritage and SE Asians, share a tendency towards cut-your-balls-off violent sexual jealousy? Where is my pop science documentary on this subject?

You might have not studied this stuff in the last four or five years: because knowledge here, thanks to genome-wide association studies, has utterly exploded since then and will probably be a solved problem by the end of the decade.

Seriously, I cannot overemphasise how much everyone needs to read what we have learned from GWAS in respect to IQ, personality, etc -- it's supremely fascinating stuff. Maybe we don't hear about it in the popular media because it's a little depressing to say that basically everything that makes one an individual is genetically determined before one is even born.
 
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"Dumbing down" a standardised test will not preclude it differentiating students by ability unless (as indeed occurs with the math portion of the SAT from what I have heard -- I am not American, so not familiar with it) it occurs to such an extent that a significant number of students get perfect or near-perfect scores, i.e. failing to distinguish between 98th and 99.99th percentile students. Universities probably would rather the SAT be an IQ test anyway if they could get away with it -- it's easy to teach content but impossible to make someone smarter -- so dumbing down the test to minimize the prerequisite knowledge actually helps steer it away from testing crystallised, and towards fluid, intelligence. I understand how it might offend one's sense of propriety to look at sample SAT questions that seem to take it for granted that the high-schooler is mentally impaired, but so long as the results give you a bell curve, the test serves its purpose. That is not to say it is optimal of course. Pretty much everything correlates with IQ so you could probably devise an equally effective test by giving a vocabulary quiz of ten words or so (0.9 correlation with IQ, I hear!).
It's not a measure of fluid intelligence either.
 
sorry for doing this shitty post, but i will explain why.
IQ doesn't reflect anything more than an autistic test that only correlates to educative measurements and the "scientists" who make them are as flawed as any other part of psychology, just being good in the low 75 of retardation.

IQ doesn't relate to smarts. IQ (or more correctly said EQ) doesn't correlate to a ratio of more than 50% on tasks similar to it (image pattern and things related to vocabulary), with lot's of failures and problems on these tasks.
The reason IQ relates to the SAT it's because it correlates to education around mathematical logic (which can be learned by the simple fact of learning how to use modern day math, which is just the activity of making instinctive math into a text format), vocabulary (which is education), some small parts of problem solving (which uses educative contexts) and things which need the understanding of metric definitions which are given at school.

Even the most fervent defenders of it say there's a correlation with education, even if it doesn't correlate with things like brain function or reaction (which again, can be learned, it's low correlation relates to the relation of most humans having 250ms and practicing to 200ms, thus 20%, even more when this depends on a lot of factors, increasing on old people where practice has a more important aspect around reaction time), this is the reason IQ correlates to a 100% to years of education, why it isn't less of 80 on all countries on real studies, why there's dudes who do shit choices even with a high iq and why it doesn't correlate to a physical aspect (and why the test looks like a text you do at school and the reason they use two data points or less to correlate (which again, it's flawed, real studies, not psychology or clinical psychology (same shit), use 6 or more data points to correlate, having less means that you are doing statistics wrong or you are doing the study incorrectly), why people stop increasing their IQ after the final school years (18 and 24 years, the hereditary shit was made with increases after school years, not genetic testing, something which explains this and his educative basis) and why the test shits the bed after a 100.



We know with 100% certainty that this is false. Psychometrics is by far the most well-studied and evidence-based area in psychology, and hundreds of people deeply familiar with statistics have looked at the data and come to the same conclusion. First, IQ correlates highly with life outcomes. Second, IQ correlates highly with ability on ... well, pretty much anything ... if you wanted to be politically correct and come up with an IQ test based on how well you can draw a circle it probably would give you at least some useful information. Even five minute ten question vocabulary tests correlate something like 90% with multi-hour formal IQ tests; the SAT, though ostensibly knowledge-based, even better. Third, following from the second point, IQ is stable over different tests and multiple years and to the degree that the relevant test correlates with g (intelligence, of which IQ tries to measure). There is nothing intrinsic to the field of psychometrics that requires that it be impossible to raise one's intelligence through hard work or education but the fact that this does not seem to be possible does make it easier for psychometricians. Fourth, IQ correlates with what common sense would expect -- brain size, reflex speed, myelin conductivity speed, good brain co-ordination as determined by PET results etc. Fifth, despite enormous effort, no one has been able to come up with a "politically correct" IQ test, which does suggest it is measuring something real, surely. Sixth, factor analysis (very complex statistics beyond me) has been used very successfully to break down intelligence into its elements -- we know that high-intelligence relies on a combination of crystallised intelligence, short-term memory, processing speed, etc. and know the extent to which these affect intelligence). You could literally work backwards after measuring any one of these things to predict someone's IQ, if you wanted. Seventh, and most fatally for denialist conspiracy theorists, we have genome-wide association studies that can be used after you get your genome sequenced to give a genomic IQ, which correlates extremely well with measured IQ and is only getting better as we learn the contributions of individual alleles to intelligence. The data are extremely overwhelming and it is obvious how easy it would be to disprove the IQ case if it were not true. If you take a profession that has high demand like physics and then find that there is not a single physicist with an IQ below 120 ... would that not indicate that it is showing you something useful? The case against IQ is basically the same as saying that "stature" has nothing to do with "measured height" and using examples like saying that one tape measure has you at five foot eleven and another five foot ten. Would you take seriously the claim of someone that even though he is continually measured by ruler at four foot that he is actually at least six foot, because the height results from rulers only correlate 0.95 with an eyeball estimate or 0.99 with more advanced measurement methods?

Oh, and I didn't even mention adoption studies. Whites adopted by blacks have IQs of around 100. Blacks adopted by whites have IQs of around 85. Adopted-out twins have IQs much closer to one another than to their adoptive families.

Also -- would you agree that some people are dull and some clever, e.g. that they are not equally intelligent or born with equal potential? If so, why would you expect groups, necessarily comprised of such differing individuals, to somehow be identical? And why would evolution not apply to intelligence, and is that particular to humans, or could one educate an animal to become a physicist too?

GWAS and other aspects of it use low data sets and try to see genomes to show differences, this seems fine until you get that the traits that they are trying to find are very complex and don't relate to certain things other than specific population with inherited wealth or other aspects which may reflect on a better educative factor, even more when these differences have correlations of 0.15 or less on a lot of aspects, these things can't explain all of the things on the human genome and relate normally to low data sets and other aspects which IQ tests have, they are a very new science that can't have specific results, just predictions (which aren't wrong tho) that can be meaningless, even more when they use the same genes as other shits which relate to general health or ambient, not intelligence.

This is the reason the test correlates with the SAT and many more shit, most educated kids normally draw perfect circles thanks to practice, the same with reaction speed, which explains his low correlation to it (if it had a correlation of around 0.50 it would be valid, but his correlation his a measly 0.20 percent taken with 20 year old people, after that it becomes 0.27 after 30 years, where little by little education and stimulation are needed to mantain the score, something which relates to the educative measure of IQ), this is the reason that a lot of physicists have IQs more than 120, they are a reflection of education and a lot of things, not a biological basis, even more when we use these skills daily and it's a basic part of our humanity.

"correlation relates to the relation of most humans having 250ms and practicing to 200ms, thus 20%, even more when this depends on a lot of factors, increasing on old people where practice has a more important aspect around reaction time."

myelin conductivity speed has low correlations and has been seen to increase with education, which relates to this fact that this is related to education (even more when myellin changes through life in a lot of ways, they are a reflection of this educative basis which changes the brain, not the opposite, even more when the studies of twins and good brain co-ordination relates to this education, being a capacity which develops when we use our neural connections, that's a more educative based behavior than myellin, the correlation will relate to that educative scale.

(this as an example:https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1002.6089&rep=rep1&type=pdf)
This study has a lot of flaws, it normally disregards these educative aspects. Obviously you can take care of a kid by another family, but that doesn't make it a better educative effort, even more when these data sets are broken and use closed relations with ongoing myellin relations and social relationships (most of the study is done with an awful mix of people which mixes the results with a sample which has finished developing (at 30 years, this can be seen on the performance and deviations of the younger part (1.10, education was 1.03), this is shown because they have a lot of 30 year people which is shown on the mean).

This explains why there's a lot of variation between them, this is with weighting and a lot of corrective factors too, they should have used median.

Even more to this, they have between a year or two of extra education, thus skewing the results on incredible levels, even more when the data for that isn't shown, just reflected on a shitty line.

This is with the education system too, not the use of all the things or jobs that change this educative scale.

Perceptual speed on the younger crowd isn't accounted too, something which relates to this reflection of education thanks to not having a more inherent basis.

This relates to this lower scale of 0.27 of correlation, something which shows the more decreased aspects of the test, the use males at the latest part of development and the fact that they didn't account for the jobs and relations of the sample reflects an study which has a lot of troubles, even more when this perception time can be seen on repeated subjects, which require education on the first place, even more when it correlates to this 0.20 percent scale).

The problem of using height as a comparison is that height can be used for different reasons which are important, there's people with shorter heights who live more and people who hurt themselves but can do more stuff with it, in comparison, intelligence it's needed for all the things that makes us humans, it would be retarded to reduce that aspect on all human societies, so it's reasonable to think that most people have similar intelligence and different persons with familiar relations will change those aspects on reduced scales (even if we are very homogeneous there can be specific traits which aren't shared on specific families).

The twin studies of the 80s (the ones you are talking about) were done on a lot of unsavory grounds, they were done on the same demo graphical city, had families close to that same bad culture and aside from this, culture still affects us, it doesn't matter that a kid has the same capacities if it doesn't explode them because of a toxic culture which disregards education.

Life outcomes normally relate to educative scale and money, even then, these relations normally have correlations of around 0.14 percent or less, these shows a scale that relates to education as a tool which aids around having a better job, but never an impossibility based around interest and perseverance, something which is shown on those results.

Correlations as a basis need to be understood, unless a correlation sides to more than a 0.50, these can be random and have a lot of inconsistencies, correlations side with a lot of effects like nutrition (which is the less significant aspect), general life treatment and more on these low numbers before and during the life of a child (obviously related to the mother before that), this cannot be seen on for example, tests of mentally defective, which relate to 0.89 or more.

Correlation just reflects (not the "muh correlations causation") a data point, this data point can be erased by simple basic shifts around flawed datas and low data sets, something that psychometrics have on nearly all of their proofs.

This isn't to say that genetics don't matter on intelligence, but that IQ just doesn't have a lot of correlations with his educative based nature and general difficulties at reflecting real life relationships which use a lot of data factors that cause problems on these correlations, believing that a test which sides and uses results from educative scales which i have explained before as a basis for a real relation to intelligence it's completely retarded (which is the same reason vocabulary tests relate to this shit, they are educative and based around the knowledge you can have, memory tests around short term memory use g-fluid, which depends on an educative base around numbers and mathematical logic which are learned in school, which is a basis that reflects our instinctive use of math on a general and modern enviroment, it's educative by definition, even more when they use PEMDAS, numeral logic (which use the concepts that PEMDAS entails) and more, which even if they are related and can be done basically by all people (which explains the low 80s of old and non educated populations), it needs a basis to work and to recognize abstract patterns (something that it's educative by definition, thus increasing IQ scores by a lot) ).

This can be seen on how these relations around IQ relate perfectly with education and with more correlation than GWAS tests (by being close to 0.90 instead of a lower 0.20, which explains a low correlation with anything, even the fact of using one hand or another can relate with this level because the simple act of being cases of people who are educated to use their right hands, thus relating to an scholar system and the act of being a part of it, this is the reason IQ relates with money use, it's an education which relates to these aspects).

You need to understand that clinical psychology is still psychology, a meaningless close conundrum of people who do flawed studies (with 2 data sets and a lot of problems), stupid ideas and retarded measurements to explain the human mind around social bases to win money or resources (to sell useless tests or retarded aspects for dumb policies, IQ tests generate affirmative action by the basis of there being a difference which need to account, instead of a whopping or a different perspective), you shouldn't see it as a gospel by the simple fact of being psychology.

Most people are clever enough to pass nearly anything, the fact of the matter is that dullness it's normally generated, just like NPCs, most animals in nature are fairly homogenous in intelligence between a family species (dogs aren't a good example, they are an example of cross breeding between repeated genes and eugenics, they just prove that retardation runs rampant on same blood families, not that normally genetically reproductive individuals who have a social group with gen sharing have these extreme margins, saying otherwise would be denying the basic function of reproductive behavior and intertwined genes ), the mentally defective fall below the curve in extreme levels for this reason, these are literally, small differences which make the basic brain parts fail by low percentages, thus causing retardation, these differences would be seen if they were common on the first place.

Not even the weirdest people accept the IQ test, national scale it's done to just appease and relate to a cultural population, not because of another factor, saying otherwise takes the point of those ideas on the first place, which is the reflection of self interest and culture (even if we have global and national things which need to work together, something that needs to be understood and accepted, just like having your own culture).

The reason that "politically correct" tests of IQ aren't done is because psychologists don't know math, they don't know the numbers so they cannot do a PC (shit) test on the first place, even then, most psychologist accept these tests, which is the reason affirmative action is so common, universities are warped by the test, even if it's done unconsciously.

Taleb has a lot of mistakes on his article (does a lot of mumbo jumbo, doesn't explain anything, relates to exaggerated aspects, it's very retarded around certain points and a lot more things, the response that some comments gave don't understand the point of the data based around statistical values which are dependant on variable scales (which is another critique to it), the flawed interpretations that i've explained, the low relation which just reflects on accepting his low aspects, even more when these are things which increase with intelligence, the lack of understanding around variable nature and the bell curve, the excessive use of a fallacies argument even if they were made after the point as jokes, the acceptance that IQ relates to this hard limit around excessive education and lack of focus value (which can reflect specific types of people who didn't learned anything, not that a high score was bad, just meaningless), the non acceptance around certain tests and the more academical nature, even more when it detracts abstract thinking from the use of numbers and more which everyone has (this is maybe the only good point, even if it correlates to education), accepting the use of estimations with low data sets (which can be understood, even if they try to see specific stuff with isn't shown there, which is the main problem), doesn't understand convexity as a reflection of other aspects which can be measured on intelligence (biological, this is the shitty point of taleb btw), doesn't understand the educative correlation which i've explained using a book which didn't even gave a real solution and was filled with failed metodologies, doesn't understand these low correlations and like a psychologists believes that these specific tasks reflect real life with a more creative and straight forward use of them, admits it's broken nature by the use of mathematical specific operations which are normally subjective and reflect on statistical improbability (an iq of 189 can't exist by the basis of not being enough humans to reflect it, you shouldn't believe the shitty 2000 year old figure IQ for this reason), reflects on this aspect by using these values which reflect his subjective nature and recognizes the educative factor, even if taleb explained his points, this response is shit, and i already say that this article is flawed on the first place) but it explains why IQ is wrong on a basic manner without "emotional intelligence" bullshit: https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39
Taleb still has a lot of problems, but it's a good side read.

This was easy by reading some studies, just read the studies and you can see these things.


These were found on very quickly, you can find more.

i get 145 on the mensa test and 150 on other tests, that's all i got to say.
 
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