YouDoNotHaveTheRight
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Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante
- Thread starter Sissyagamben
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Derrick
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There are some key overlap between Islamic and Christian teachings on Jesus:
"And when the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah gives you the glad tidings of a command from Him: his name shall be Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary. He shall be highly honoured in this world and in the Next, and shall be one of those near stationed to Allah.'"-Quran 3:45
"She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has ever touched me?' The angel answered: Thus shall it be. Allah creates whatever He wills. When He decides something, He merely says: 'Be' and it is"- Quran 3:47
"And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel"- Quran 3:48
"And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers".- Quran 3:49
"And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers." -Quran 3:49
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Every one of the People of the Book will definitely believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Judgment Jesus will be a witness against them."-Quran 4:159
Every one of the People of the Book will definitely believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Judgment Jesus will be a witness against them."-Quran 4:159
However there are some very distinct differences which I believe make ecumenism between Muslims and Christians virtually impossible
"and for boasting, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so. Even those who argue for this crucifixion are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him."-Quran 4:157 (as an aside even secular historians agree Jesus was crucified)
"O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit created by a command from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, 'Trinity.' Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs."
And perhaps the biggest difference of all
"By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill the swine and abolish the poll-tax, and wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it"- Sahih al-Bukhari (2222)
While I respects Muslims and their right to practice their faith because of these key differences I think it would be hard to be in ecumenical agreement with them with these big differences on how we see Jesus
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I always thought the best way to resolve such significant differences is to agree on a basis by which one side prays to Jesus to show mercy for the other side. Ecumenically hedging our bets if you will.
Unfortunately the real issue with Islam is the violence by which it is historically spread.
YouDoNotHaveTheRight
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@Derrick some of the disagreements you say actually can align with Sacred Name Movement faith. There are clearly differences in the faiths I will not deny that, but if you compared every religion in the world at its root and not every branch of every religion. Christianity and Islam are closest in agreement in general to each other than any others to themselves. Similar to Roman and Greek religions very similar, but different. I don't care if people simp for muslims or hate them I just dont think people should hate Muslims because of centuries old crusades alone, or for the purpose of greater israel.
Derrick
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The Islamic teachings that Jesus never was crucified nor rose from the dead is not just historically problematic it's also antithetical to Christianity. "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith"- 1st Corinthians 15:14
I do not hate Muslims, far from it. I think that like Christians they should be allowed to practice their religion freely without fear of persecution. In fact I think Muslims and Christians could be great political allies, particularly in moral issues such as LGBT Rights. Christian politicians would be wise to reach out to these groups to try and win their support particular in places where they're a sizeable minority, like in Europe.
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umseriously
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Seems they were making an argument against people who call themselves Christian but dont follow Christ, but they're using talking points that don't hold up to actual theology, which is ironic.
EDIT: Did a bit more digging, she (guessing) is one of the rainbow brigade, or at the very least comes off extremely faggy, and is openly non-denominational. On the plus side I do not detect any animosity towards any denomination except Calvinism and Arminianism which is refreshing. I sense this individual is genuinely seeking Jesus but is overwhelmed by a combination of contemporary entitlement and midwit intelligence. The kind of person who thinks their personal opinions and beliefs should shape their religious beliefs which is the opposite of how its supposed to work.
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Smashed & Slamed
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Making friends with muslims is like asking saint George to befriend the dragon. It's a view birthed of blissful ignorance. Muslims have martyred more Christians than the pagans of ancient times, the communists of modern times or the conflicts between Christians. You are spitting on the graves of those victimized by them and allowing a beast in the crib of your descendants.
They are the enemy. A fact made plain by their continued murder of Christians for being Christians. There is no alliance. If given enough time they will attack you or those that come after you.
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Smashed & Slamed
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You can love the criminal breaking and entering into your home and still put a few slugs in him.
Love doesn't stop you from doing the necessary things to preserve your charges. A solider doesn't go to hell for defending his nation nor does a king do so for defending his kingdom. Loving someone is just that, loving them and praying for their salvation.
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My point was more that making friends with them isn't an affront to our martyrs, it's what Christ would want us to do.
By all means defend yourself and your loved ones if attacked, self defense has long been venerated by The Church, but do not make animosity your default state.
Smashed & Slamed
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I think Islam is antithetical to Christianity on more than just the basis of they are killing us. Their propensity for child brides and suicide soldiers as young as 12 brings into fold Matthew 18: 6-7
Though I also need to admit that some Christians both sects and just cultures also do child brides. So the beam in one eye and the toothpick in another stands. But at the same time I think those practices are not Christian in spite of them being done by some Christians while Mohamed had a child bride thus that practice is part of their religion not a trait of some of it's worshipers.
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I'll say this much, at least they're upfront about it, unlike the Jews.
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A loaded question in this thread. Everyone will say, with full conviction, their own denomination. So for me the answer would be Catholicism, but we try to be more ecumenical here lest the thread cease to function.
For this I'll stick to examples that I think all the thread regulars can agree are wrong.
The Mormons
Calvinists (predestinationism)
Jehovah's Witnesses
The Amish and other such Luddite groups.
Lollards
Arianists
Arminianists
Televangelists
Prosperity Theology
YouDoNotHaveTheRight
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There is enough evidence of Christians being able to thrive under a Muslim ruled land that this post seems ignorant of. There is blood on the hands of both sides and its been a very long time, but while people like to remember the crusades they never talk about the good things that have happened in history. There doesn't need to be an alliance, but if you're going to have a bias opinion on the topic you should at least acknowledge the multiple Muslim empires/dynasties where Christians were able to thrive be exempt from religious taxes etc. I know currently the Europeans are heavily biased because they let a bunch of welfare oppurtunists into their nations, but I also remember being Islamophohic at the time because I watched cnn because contractually it had to be on the television at my job and I'm not European, but I worried for them. Yet I saw many Europeans welcoming them in with open arms despite the crimes those people who I do not consider true practicing Muslims because those crimes they were committing are against the teachings in their text. It wasn't small hat tribe welcoming them in either maybe bringing them, but the Euros were all for it and look at them now hating all Muslims for virtue signal remorse when its not really any real practising. Here in the USA Muslim community in Michigan is more based than the reddest blooded American in the midwest they don't let homosexual flags fly in their community. They are not this devil you assume and they believe in the Messiah with all their heart, but there are differences.
Smashed & Slamed
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To this day Christians in Muslim lands are martyred. And they don't just kill people in their land. Just a few months ago Muslims attacked churches in Russia.
As for prosperity Christians in the middle east are effectively a serf caste dependent on the mercy of Muslim leaders more worried about their pockets than their prophet. Only times they have done well once Islam has showed it's ugly head has been under secular leader or at least non Muslim leader.
While in Ottoman occupied Europe the Christian territories were bandit countries where the leadership from Constantinople vacillated between genocide, exploitation and apathy. With their favorite tactic of raiding or forcing tribute of young boys to be castrated and forced into the army that will be used to attack their motherlands once more.
During the last push for liberation, the 1877-78 Russo Turkish war the Ottomans unleashed the bashi-bazouk on the Christian Bulgarian population raping, pillaging, murdering and enslaving as much as they could before the Christian armies arrived.
So because of people who do not share your faith, in fact they hate it invited another group that hates your faith you side with the invaders.
You are picking and choosing devils and putting politics before God.
Jesus died on the cross for your sins. They do not believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins. Also believing Jesus existed is not some religious revelation, we have secular sources and it's an accepted fact even by those that aren't Christian. This 'men of the book' doctrine is an invention that has no bearing on actual Christianity and I would argue goes against Matthew 10: 34-39.
It's not easy to recognize that Muslims are never and will never be your friend. But it is easy to overlook their flaws for the sake of "peace" and common political goals.
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CAPTAIN HAPPY
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There are none. That is utter nonsense.
That is beyond utter nonsense. All non-mulsims in any muslim empire are mandated to pay the jizya, which has no specific amount.
The idea that Christians re exempt from taxes that muslims pay is word play lies.
There is no muslim nation that is not a money grubing socialist hellhole. The migrants are just the bottom of the barrel and the barrel is full of manure.
Explains why you watch cnn, since that is just more bull.
There were many campaigns of stupid liberal idiots welcoming in migrants because of fake humanitarian values. That stuff expired real fast when those same liberal women started going missing, only to be found brutalized in some pit next to migrant camps.
The overwhelming majority of Europeans knew this migrant stuff will not fly from the beginning, but the Angela Merkel morons ignored all warnings to the contrary of their blind belief in the innate goodness of the human heart.
Then you're an absolute fool, because those radical Muslim psychos are the purest form of islam there is. Your considerations are irrelevant.
Absolute total nonsense.
Absolute total nonsense again.
Bro.
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You really just need to read muslim forums and see what muslims advocate to each other, and how they explicitly say to never make a friend out of a non-muslim, typically by saying something like "how you can be a friend with someone who doesn't put Allah first?"
And then they usually go on to advise to pretend to be friends with non-muslims for two purposes, either converting them to muslims, or to give a good reputation to islam.
I'd say it's quite easy to recognize that muslims aren't your friend; either they're your friend or they're muslim, but not both.
CAPTAIN HAPPY
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You can be friends with muslims, it's not that rare among moderates, even among some more devout mulsims to have otherfaith friends. But you must never give ground on your faith, they won't respect you if you're lukewarm.