Christianity without creationism - Also other similar theologies.

[murdered meat bag]

The point of this thread isn't about how dumb creationism is (it's pretty dumb but whatever). It's that any anthrocentric theology is dumb without a form of creationism.
Deism can still work here, but Christianity can't. If the goal is to make people, a perfectly wise god would choose the most efficient route. "Mysterious ways" is a dumbfuck argument since it only takes the most basic understanding to understand how dumb it would be to take a billion extra steps to do what he could effortlessly do in a millisecond all in one go.

nothing says it didn't happen in a flash or 6 days or a trillion years. the story is there to help humans understand the beginning of the universe and man's relation to God. I mean genesis has God creating sea animals, then land animals. follows a similar path that evolution asserts. but again, could be in a flash or bazillion years.

the goal isn't just to make people but to make people in his own image. Why? It is a mystery. and the orthodox church likes to leave such unknowable thing as a mystery because you'll go insane trying to rationalize it.

 

[knobslobbin]

Maybe our skyfather's powers only exist outside spacetime and can be wielded to create universes, but not alter them once they get rolling along.

 

[Penis Drager]

nothing says it didn't happen in a flash or 6 days or a trillion years. the story is there to help humans understand the beginning of the universe and man's relation to God. I mean genesis has God creating sea animals, then land animals. follows a similar path that evolution asserts. but again, could be in a flash or bazillion years.

the goal isn't just to make people but to make people in his own image. Why? It is a mystery. and the orthodox church likes to leave such unknowable thing as a mystery because you'll go insane trying to rationalize it.

The hebrews, who wrote the old testament (Torah), actually had the philosophy that a written work dies when there are no new ways to interpret it.
That's not a direct response to anything you said. But it is something I assume you'd find interesting.

 

[Rust-froth]

The point of this thread isn't about how dumb creationism is (it's pretty dumb but whatever). It's that any anthrocentric theology is dumb without a form of creationism.
Deism can still work here, but Christianity can't. If the goal is to make people, a perfectly wise god would choose the most efficient route. "Mysterious ways" is a dumbfuck argument since it only takes the most basic understanding to understand how dumb it would be to take a billion extra steps to do what he could effortlessly do in a millisecond all in one go.

A perfectly wise god wanting to most effective path would pick the most effective one. A shit posting perfectly wise God might find it fun to see what crazy shit happens and witness in real time. What if God really likes realitys in the form of destruction derbys? You're projecting your desires for God onto God, who is unknowable. Maybe the crazy ride we're on is the most effective way.

 

[murdered meat bag]

The hebrews, who wrote the old testament (Torah), actually had the philosophy that a written work dies when there are no new ways to interpret it.
That's not a direct response to anything you said. But it is something I assume you'd find interesting.

I can see that, the jews have a way with words.

there's something similar with The Greeks called theologoumena which is a theological opinion that isn't dogmatic or goes against dogma. (don't quote me) Eden in Genesis could be a garden on earth, life on mars, an alternative state, or a parallel universe. none of those things go against dogma (necessarily) so it's not wrong to say it could be those, but it's not definitive either. If you're a rational person, you'll mind will break trying to get a definitive answer on non dogmatic questions. Alien and UFO sightings are demons appearing on earth.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

To take a stab at answering that, first you have to understand how ancient creation stories work. When you look at creation stories from that era (Jewish, Babylonian, Egyptian), exactly none of it is about creating existence out of non-existence. They're about creating order out of chaos. It's about getting from primordial chaos to a functioning ecosystem. And as it turns out, evolution is actually a pretty damn good way to do that. It took a rather long time to get there, but... so what?

Now that's not to say Genesis is a coded textbook about evolution. It's not. It's structured as poetry, and it does it a disservice to read it as anything else. But instead of explaining the physical ordering of nature (as covered by science), it explains the proper relationship between God, man, and nature.

 

[Penis Drager]

A perfectly wise god wanting to most effective path would pick the most effective one. A shit posting perfectly wise God might find it fun to see what crazy shit happens and witness in real time. What if God really likes realitys in the form of destruction derbys? You're projecting your desires for God onto God, who is unknowable. Maybe the crazy ride we're on is the most effective way.

Again, deism doesn't fall to this logic. An uncaring god can sit back and watch things roll. But one that sees man as an image of himself wouldn't bother to use this weird thing called "evolution" to make one.

 

[Rust-froth]

Again, deism doesn't fall to this logic. An uncaring god can sit back and watch things roll. But one that sees man as an image of himself wouldn't bother to use this weird thing called "evolution" to make one.

How do you know? You're again projecting onto something you can't understand. How do you know God is not subject to evolution?

 

[Penis Drager]

How do you know? You're again projecting onto something you can't understand. How do you know God is not subject to evolution?

Well the bible says God is eternal, all knowing, and all powerful. Seems to follow that he's not subject to evolution if Christianity is true.

 

[NOT Sword Fighter Super]

Why'd he make adam and eve with no knowledge of how to be sapient or independent but then put a tree in their garden that could make them understand reality but told them not to touch it and then punished them when they did? Did he know it was going to happen? So then why even set up the garden in the first place and just directly put them in a careless harsh world already knowing that it's terrible?

Because that'd be pretty funny.
The ultimate trolllllllllolololol

 

[Rust-froth]

Well the bible says God is eternal, all knowing, and all powerful. Seems to follow that he's not subject to evolution if Christianity is true.

None of those things conflict with evolution.

 

[Penis Drager]

None of those things conflict with evolution.

They conflict with the idea that God evolves.
The assumption that he wanted humans in the first place is what conflicts with our understanding of evolution.

 

[Dom Cruise]

First of all, time is completely subjective to God, it's not like he had to wait out billions of years like we would, a billion years could pass in a day, so what difference does it make how "fast" he did it when linear time is subjective and there's no "fast" or "slow" to begin with?

And secondly, the Genesis story was always meant to be an allegorical explaining of what happened in a poetic way rather than a literal transcription of events, it literally all boils down to "God created the universe, God created life, God created mankind, mankind fell prey to temptation and achieved self consciousness, possibly by influence from Lucifer, that changed the dynamic of the universe and is why we no longer live in Eden today"

There you go, the exact details of the story are there to simply convey the overall message.

 

[draggs]

The point of this thread isn't about how dumb creationism is (it's pretty dumb but whatever). It's that any anthrocentric theology is dumb without a form of creationism.
Deism can still work here, but Christianity can't. If the goal is to make people, a perfectly wise god would choose the most efficient route. "Mysterious ways" is a dumbfuck argument since it only takes the most basic understanding to understand how dumb it would be to take a billion extra steps to do what he could effortlessly do in a millisecond all in one go.

Why does God have to conform to your human standards of what makes sense and what is perfection

Or my human standards

Or anyone's human standards

 

[Penis Drager]

Why does God have to conform to your human standards of what makes sense and what is perfection

Or my human standards

Or anyone's human standards

Okay, God doesn't have to follow logic.
So no need to discuss him in any logical manner because fuck logic as far as God is concerned.
Makes sense to me...

 

[Rust-froth]

They conflict with the idea that God evolves.
The assumption that he wanted humans in the first place is what conflicts with our understanding of evolution.

God can be made up of cells which evolve inside it. Evolution isn't just monkey turning into man.

You're projecting a linear concept of time onto a being beyond time and space. Humans are able to manipulate space-time and we're not even close to all powerful. Humans have proven that events in the future can influence particles in the past. We have done experiments changing the form a particle before it reaches the moment in time which manipulates it into taking that form. If basic bitch humans can do you think God could do?

Okay, God doesn't have to follow logic.
So no need to discuss him in any logical manner because fuck logic as far as God is concerned.
Makes sense to me...

*Tips Fedora* This is 2002 atheist youtube channel levels of salt.

 

[draggs]

Okay, God doesn't have to follow logic.
So no need to discuss him in any logical manner because fuck logic as far as God is concerned.
Makes sense to me...

Well yes, actually, but that's not the point

What you think is logical and perfect someone else will disagree. How do you propose going about showing that your premises are objectively correct and the logic follows consistently from them to a conclusion that is also consistent

 

[Dojima's Dragon]

Genesis 5:3-4​

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New International Version​

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When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

Shit didn't realize a certain african warlord is thousands of years old

 

[Rust-froth]

[{"id":"8497093-0"}]

Okay, God doesn't have to follow logic.
So no need to discuss him in any logical manner because fuck logic as far as God is concerned.
Makes sense to me...

Even if you are entirely logical and entirely correct there is still problems. The universe as we know it isn't perfectly logical, there are mathematical instability to put it in layman's terms. The odds of an event happening due to the instability is obviously insanely low but it does exist. You could turn on your light switch and your chair explodes. There's no logical reason for this to happen but that small instability in the universe makes it possible and inevitable on a long enough timeline (longer than the heat death of the universe). If you had perfect logic and perfect answers you would still have to deal with random illogical bullshit. It's one of the fascinating theories involved in alternative universes, if they exist and every possibly exists then in one universe every time you use a light switch a chair explodes. Not because that universe has a stable connection between exploding chairs and light switches, purely on random luck.

 

[💗Freddie Freaker💗]

The point of this thread isn't about how dumb creationism is (it's pretty dumb but whatever). It's that any anthrocentric theology is dumb without a form of creationism.
Deism can still work here, but Christianity can't. If the goal is to make people, a perfectly wise god would choose the most efficient route. "Mysterious ways" is a dumbfuck argument since it only takes the most basic understanding to understand how dumb it would be to take a billion extra steps to do what he could effortlessly do in a millisecond all in one go.

God's mind wouldn't work like a human's or any living being we're familiar with, so there would be no way to discern his motives. We'd be like ants trying to understand what a human is up to.

Assuming god did have a human-like mind with comprehensible motives, he might have taken the extra steps because it's more fun that way. He could be like a bored kid experimenting with an ant farm.