#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[SaidNoOneEver]

What CG needs right now is a debate series with SJWs no one has ever heard of.

After all even the Farms is getting bored with laughing at it all.

I know, let's revisit GamerGate! That's sure to work!

 

[Captain Manning]

What CG needs right now is a debate series with SJWs no one has ever heard of.

After all even the Farms is getting bored with laughing at it all.

Plan B is to dress up @COMMI3 MARK as an anime girl again and have him debate Ethan.

It won't be substantive, but it'll at least be funny.

I know, let's revisit GamerGate! That's sure to work!

You laugh, but Brianna Wu still got more votes than Cenk Uygur, and GG is Wu's favorite subject in the whole wide world.

It's a crazy world.

 

[Greed]

I definitely need a break. It's frustrating to read such poor misreadings of my agenda and attitudes and have them called criticism, and KF isn't the place to answer with sincerity. "Ethan pines for the popularity of manga but has an aversion to writers!"

Sorry you feel I've misinterpreted your quotes. I'm well aware of your gratitude for your fans and no one is questioning that. I do feel you recognize how popular manga is, and I don't think you understand that good writing is the main thing manga has over American comics. How could I feel any other way when you've literally said stuff like "that's like wolvering with chainsaws, we can do that!". Was that meant to be an ironic quote? Look at it this way, you and most of your professional friends are capable of creating art on a much higher level than most manga. Why do you think they still sell so well, despite this?

The idea that I don't care or don't value story over visual images, as though I'm not aware of what comics can be, is so insulting that it's mildly depressing.

I do think you value story and character development. I made a point to recognize that in my post. I get annoyed when you make statements that imply the opposite, however sarcastic they may be. It's tonal whiplash for your fans, and your less nuanced compatriots take it quite literally. My apologies if I depressed you, that wasn't my intention.

But that asshole SaidNoOneEver is right. Talking about it is the opposite of doing it. I gotta go.

Fair enough, but you're not a airplane, so there's no need to keep announcing your departure. Take care, we'll see you when we see you.

 

[Strix454]

You laugh, but Brianna Wu still got more votes than Cenk Uygur, and GG is Wu's favorite subject in the whole wide world.

It's a crazy world.

I doubt her gamergate show will ever happen. I don't think anyone had ever heard of the company (Mind Riot Entertainment) she is working with before the press release for this gamergate thing. Her co-writer is a nobody whose only industry experience was writing a Roger Corman TV horror movie ten years ago. And there is no producer attached to it. She conned these idiots (Mind Riot) into paying for the rights to her life story and I think that is all she will get out of this.

 

[Captain Manning]

Sorry you feel I've misinterpreted your quotes. I'm well aware of your gratitude for your fans and no one is questioning that. I do feel you recognize how popular manga is, and I don't think you understand that good writing is the main thing manga has over American comics.

Manga and anime are mediums. Comics are a medium. Within an artistic or literary medium, there are genres. This is so even if Netflix insists on filing anime under "anime" while correctly categorizing everything else under genres like romance, horror, drama, et cetera.. Anime specific streaming services (i.e. Crunchyroll) tend to avoid this mistake.

I mention this because think the main issue holding back comics is that it's mostly capeshit, and capeshit has become synonymous with the average person's understanding of comics. I'm tired of capeshit. For a long time now, some of the biggest sellers in anime and manga have been what fans refer to as the "slice of life" genre. These include high school romances, and whatnot. These are relatively light on action, but VERY HEAVY on character development. Good writing is paramount here. One of the richest manga-kas in Japan is Rumiko Takahashi. One of her most successful works is Maison Ikkoku. It's about a bunch of people living in an apartment complex. It's kinda like Seinfeld. There's no alien invasion, or super mutants, or anything of the sort.

So, yes, it comes down to writing, but I think more specifically, the problem is that the writing in comics is seen as stale because there's little genre diversification within the comics medium.

Interestingly, I think @FROG gets part of this insofar as he understands there is genre diversification in manga. He was talking on his stream about how there's cooking manga, and whatnot, and noticing one genre isn't trying to muscle in on another. It's a "big tent" industry.

Perhaps the issue is that Ethan is beholden to a genre that generally doesn't exhibit good writing. When he was asked what he likes in manga he more or less said "lots of speed lines."

 

[Newman's Own]

Was that meant to be an ironic quote? Look at it this way, you and most of your professional friends are capable of creating art on a much higher level than most manga. Why do you think they still sell so well, despite this?

Who are you trying to convince? Ethan's heard all of this many times and clearly does not want to hear it again.

 

[Greed]

Who are you trying to convince? Ethan's heard all of this many times and clearly does not want to hear it again.

I'll drop it. My attempts to give Frog advice usually just backfire and offend him and I very much doubt my fellow farmers appreciate me constantly preaching the merits of manga and attempting to turn the thread into a writers workshop. I'll go back to what I'm good at: cow analysis and making dumb meme videos.

I mention this because think the main issue holding back comics is that it's mostly capeshit, and capeshit has become synonymous with the average person's understanding of comics. I'm tired of capeshit.

Aren't we all. The last capeshit I saw that actually entertained me was Invincible, which was a complete subversion of capeshit in every way imaginable and would probably piss Frog off immensely.

Interestingly, I think @FROG gets part of this insofar as he understands there is genre diversification in manga. He was talking on his stream about how there's cooking manga, and whatnot, and noticing one genre isn't trying to muscle in on another. It's a "big tent" industry.

Oh he absolute gets it, which is what makes it so frustrating when he pretends to not get it.

Perhaps the issue is that Ethan is beholden to a genre that generally doesn't exhibit good writing. When he was asked what he likes in manga he more or less said "lots of speed lines."

I've more or less reached the same conclusion. The difference between us and Frog may come down to a discrepancy in perspective. We're neutral observers on the outside looking in. Frog's been entrenched in this stuff for decades. It may not be as easy for him to see the full spectrum of media and where he and comics stand in that food chain. Regardless, I'll be leaving this topic in your hands. I've become a broken record.

 

[Captain Manning]

Who are you trying to convince? Ethan's heard all of this many times and clearly does not want to hear it again.

I outlined my suspicions above why Frog doesn't really like manga or take cues from it, and maybe one day I'll find out if I'm right.

Until then, we should probably turn back to another more pressing topic...

@TheCosmicWarrior, why do you hate @VIkkiVerse? YOU WILL ANSWER!!!

 

[TESTEFY-HD]

I outlined my suspicions above why Frog doesn't really like manga or take cues from it, and maybe one day I'll find out if I'm right.

Until then, we should probably turn back to another more pressing topic...

@TheCosmicWarrior, why do you hate @VIkkiVerse? YOU WILL ANSWER!!!

Hi captain manning and HI #COMICSGATE

 

[Mister Dongs]

The irony in the situation is that Richard did very similar things in 2017 with comics pros with similar results. They got baited into fighting with a nobody and made him into a somebody. Every tweet and every response to him amounted to marketing for him at their expense. And every response people at marvel & IDW gave him turned into video content. Responding to total nobodies is almost always a mistake.

Richard went on to start a franchise. Renfamous wrote a story for "Dead Beats" and moved on to feast on a buffet of speds over at Weeb Wars.
Those aren't very similar results.

 

[Gar For Archer]

I'll drop it. My attempts to give Frog advice usually just backfire and offend him and I very much doubt my fellow farmers appreciate me constantly preaching the merits of manga and attempting to turn the thread into a writers workshop. I'll go back to what I'm good at: cow analysis and making dumb meme videos.

Aren't we all. The last capeshit I saw that actually entertained me was Invincible, which was a complete subversion of capeshit in every way imaginable and would probably piss Frog off immensely.

Oh he absolute gets it, which is what makes it so frustrating when he pretends to not get it.

I've more or less reached the same conclusion. The difference between us and Frog may come down to a discrepancy in perspective. We're neutral observers on the outside looking in. Frog's been entrenched in this stuff for decades. It may not be as easy for him to see the full spectrum of media and where he and comics stand in that food chain. Regardless, I'll be leaving this topic in your hands. I've become a broken record.

I don’t think Invincible is a subversion of superheroes. Omni-man is a subversion of the Superman archetype, and the ramped-up gore and violence is explicitly subversive of the “nobody ever dies or gets permanently injured” status-quo endemic to Marvel/DC, but the story itself is fairly standard faire and is more of a celebration of the genre than a subversion - the heroes are still heroes and good still conquers evil, just with more blood, guts and death along the way.

 

[Rupin]

I don’t think Invincible is a subversion of superheroes. Omni-man is a subversion of the Superman archetype, and the ramped-up gore and violence is explicitly subversive of the “nobody ever dies or gets permanently injured” status-quo endemic to Marvel/DC, but the story itself is fairly standard faire and is more of a celebration of the genre than a subversion, with heroes being heroes and ultimately conquering evil, just with more blood, guts and death along the way.

Invincible is cool to me because it explores the grey area between being a hero and a villain in addition to having awesome fights with lots of gore. Like when Battlecat got killed when fighting Thragg for seven days, I legit felt bad for the character even though that was the way he wanted to go. So while not all of the issues of Invincible were great, the overall story kicked ass.

 

[Mister Dongs]

Invincible is best described as Kirkman's take and exploration of the superhero genre, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a subversion given how superhero values and conventions are supported within the text. If anything, Invincible is a subversion of the previous decade of post-Watchmen "superhero deconstruction" that became the norm in mainstream comics by giving positive, constructive and fresh takes on superheroes. Also, Kirkman's Walking Dead is a massive influence, if not the single biggest influence, on Frog's resumed Cyberfrog series so I think it's a bit off-base to assume he loathes Kirkman's work.

 

[Captain Manning]

Richard went on to start a franchise. Renfamous wrote a story for "Dead Beats" and moved on to feast on a buffet of speds over at Weeb Wars.
Those aren't very similar results.

While Richard has clearly enjoyed more success than Renfamous, the jury is still out on whether they will eventually be keeping each other company in the same gutter.

Have you seen 499?

 

[GranDuke]

I think you are thinking way too hard about Invincible, nothing is subversive there, its just standard superhero story. Only difference to Marvel or DC is that it was indie title and Kirkman didn't have to adjust for whatever big multiverse ending event was happening this month. And he could end it when he felt like it instead of editors assigning another writer.

 

[A nameless trool]

Perhaps the issue is that Ethan is beholden to a genre that generally doesn't exhibit good writing. When he was asked what he likes in manga he more or less said "lots of speed lines."

Bloodhoney was not badly written imho. The monologue in the begining pages was what sold me on the book and the rest is in line with 90s comics writing.
The pacing was kind of slow and it was clearly not the book I was sold on (no Cyberfrog on Vyzpids action for instance) but clearly it was the work of someone who knows how to tell a story. For a CG book this is stellar.

As for Invincible, it was no subversion. It was written in the spirit of something like Savage Dragon, only it ended while it was going somewhere instead of deteriorating into Eric Larsen drawing porn to hit the 300 issue mark and take the record from Dave Sim (That Mc Farlane halfway did already)

 

[Newman's Own]

The pacing was kind of slow and it was clearly not the book I was sold on (no Cyberfrog on Vyzpids action for instance) but clearly it was the work of someone who knows how to tell a story. For a CG book this is stellar.

"For a CG book..." When adding this caveat is necessary you know the writing is sub-par. Wenger's writing is above average for CG and it's terrible.

Lower the bar enough and everyone gets a trophy.

Richard went on to start a franchise. Renfamous wrote a story for "Dead Beats" and moved on to feast on a buffet of speds over at Weeb Wars.
Those aren't very similar results.

Richard trolled people more famous and talented than himself and got enough attention to become a minor E-Celeb.

Renfamous trolled people more famous and talented than itself and got enough attention to become a minor E-Celeb.

It's not unreasonable to say their trolling elicited similar results. What they accomplished with that result (very minor celebrity) may be different but that's a different discussion.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

I definitely need a break. It's frustrating to read such poor misreadings of my agenda and attitudes and have them called criticism, and KF isn't the place to answer with sincerity. "Ethan pines for the popularity of manga but has an aversion to writers!"

I don't pine for the popularity of manga. I'm overwhelmed with gratitude for the thousands of backers who fund my projects, and who buy my stuff on eBay. It's more than enough and I feel content. I'm not looking for more. I'm glad to be where I am. CYBERFROG has a nice following and is successful enough to pay for the life I want to live.

I don't claim that CYBERFROG is about "machismo and action" nor to I have an aversion to writers or good writing. The book is about a lot of things that feel important to me, like family, fear and anger, service and duty, and friendship. I'm capable of learning to write, and I'm going to do it myself. The entire story is already in my head, and as I go on, I'll improve in telling it. Until I am excellent. The idea that I don't care or don't value story over visual images, as though I'm not aware of what comics can be, is so insulting that it's mildly depressing.

But that asshole SaidNoOneEver is right. Talking about it is the opposite of doing it. I gotta go.

Have you ever considered a private signing/engagement/whatever they call it for CGC? It's the only way to get an authenticated and/or graded signature or headsketch. If you send in a convention sketch or autograph for grading CGC automatically gives it an 8 unless one of their people witnesses it being drawn/signed (don't ask how I discovered that, ugh).

I just got an email notification for this and it made me wonder:

CGC Welcomes Award-winning Comic Creator Frank Miller for an Exclusive Signing! | CGC

www.cgccomics.com

LOL at the prices!

The CGC In-House Private Signing fee for Frank Miller is $130 per item and includes:

• Frank Miller’s signature
• Estimated turnaround time of six weeks for CGC grading
• Estimated turnaround time of eight weeks for CGC grading and CCS pressing (an additional $20 fee applies for CCS pressing)
• Encapsulation with the iconic yellow CGC Signature Series label

The CGC In-House Private Signing fee for a Frank Miller Remarque is $310 per item and includes:

• Frank Miller’s Remarque. Submitter may request the desired Remarque. Important: The final design and subject matter of the Remarque is at the artist’s discretion. CGC cannot guarantee Remarque requests.
• Frank Miller’s signature
• Estimated turnaround time of six weeks for CGC grading
• Estimated turnaround time of eight weeks for CGC grading and CCS pressing (an additional $20 fee applies for CCS pressing)
• Encapsulation with the iconic yellow CGC Signature Series label

The CGC In-House Private Signing fee for a Frank Miller Head Sketch is $725 per item and includes:

• Frank Miller’s Head Sketch. Submitter may request the desired Head Sketch. Important: The final design and subject matter of the sketch is at the artist’s discretion. CGC cannot guarantee sketch requests. Unlimited number of sketches available for submitters.
• Frank Miller’s signature
• Estimated turnaround time of six weeks for CGC grading
• Estimated turnaround time of eight weeks for CGC grading and CCS pressing (an additional $20 fee applies for CCS pressing)
• Encapsulation with the iconic yellow CGC Signature Series label

The CGC In-House Private Signing fee for a Frank Miller Full Figure Sketch is $1,325 per item and includes:

• Frank Miller’s Full Figure Sketch. Submitter may request the desired Full Figure Sketch. Important: The final design and subject matter of the sketch is at the artist’s discretion. CGC cannot guarantee sketch requests. Limited to the first 20 submitters. Submissions must be a blank sketch cover.
• Frank Miller’s signature
• Estimated turnaround time of six weeks for CGC grading
• Estimated turnaround time of eight weeks for CGC grading and CCS pressing (an additional $20 fee applies for CCS pressing)
• Encapsulation with the iconic yellow CGC Signature Series label

 

[Stupendus]

Invincible was a mediocre hit when it first came out, dwarfed and glanced over for more popular and media hyped relaunches and reboots of existing properties at that time period.
Only now is it gaining any news attention due to companies grabbing any properties that they think they can make a quick buck off... such as JUPITER'S LEGACY and SWEET TOOTH.... both were lackluster on their debuts but now all the rage because the audience doesn't have to actually read it.... Y the LAST MAN is the next.

 

[jspit2.0]

Well, we've now degenerated to arguing about Dickie and fucking comics of all things.

Invincible is best described as Kirkman's take and exploration of the superhero genre, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a subversion given how superhero values and conventions are supported within the text. If anything, Invincible is a subversion of the previous decade of post-Watchmen "superhero deconstruction" that became the norm in mainstream comics by giving positive, constructive and fresh takes on superheroes. Also, Kirkman's Walking Dead is a massive influence, if not the single biggest influence, on Frog's resumed Cyberfrog series so I think it's a bit off-base to assume he loathes Kirkman's work.

It's deconstructive in that it, at the time it debuted, took thinly veiled stand ins for DC comics characters and pulled at them. It doesn't really hit the skids until after wrapping the books first arc, which goes on for almost sixty to eighty issues and is a rip off of Dragon Ball.

After that Kirkman proceeds to deconstruct the very idea of heroism that while he had toyed with in the first, decompressed arc, he completely tore asunder in the second.

I think you are thinking way too hard about Invincible, nothing is subversive there, its just standard superhero story. Only difference to Marvel or DC is that it was indie title and Kirkman didn't have to adjust for whatever big multiverse ending event was happening this month. And he could end it when he felt like it instead of editors assigning another writer.

I don't want to spoil the series but your wrong on that. Or are you? You use the word subversive and Invincible came out in the days of Mark Millar and Ellis at Marvel and Didio at DC with Identity Crisis.

Would it be fairer to Kirkman was aligned with the zeitgeist of the time?

Bloodhoney was not badly written imho. The monologue in the begining pages was what sold me on the book and the rest is in line with 90s comics writing.
The pacing was kind of slow and it was clearly not the book I was sold on (no Cyberfrog on Vyzpids action for instance) but clearly it was the work of someone who knows how to tell a story. For a CG book this is stellar.

It wasn't badly written, but it didn't knock it out of the park.

The structure was a lacking, as you point out. The dialogue was nowhere near as bad as McFarlane or Rob Liefeld's Image era abortions. It also was bloated and could have used a second revision.

Grading the book absent art I'd have given our resident amphibian a C. Which is probably what I'd have given the big Marvel/DC books then, RE writing.

As for Invincible, it was no subversion. It was written in the spirit of something like Savage Dragon, only it ended while it was going somewhere instead of deteriorating into Eric Larsen drawing porn to hit the 300 issue mark and take the record from Dave Sim (That Mc Farlane halfway did already)

Savage Dragon is horribly written, so you aren't helping yourself by using it to defend Dragon Ball Invincible.