#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[MirrorNoir]

I'm no market analyst but here are some Manga advantages:
Doesn't do floppy crap
It's about $0.06 per page rather than $0.20 per page
It's every genre, rather than one single genre
Mostly new stuff or creator-owned rather than old-as-dirt corporate assembly line products without complete stories.
Edgy content is more common.
No shady distribution monopoly

But even with all that, comics are just terrible, terrible quality right now, a complete waste of time & money. I'm not sure if the shrinking industry made it vulnerable to SJWs or SJWs made the industry crash, or some combination. All I know is, I walk out of the comic store without buying anything pretty often these days. It's kind of awkward.

There are downsides to Manga though:

1. It's $10+ for a volume (especially the more high end stuff, which can go for $20 and gets more complicated when you factor in stuff like Gundam Origin or the JoJo volumes, which are only available in super expensive HCs), making it a bit steeper to blind buy a new series unless it's something with an anime tie-in that you've already watched so you know what you are getting per-say

2. Extensive continuity lock-out worse than most cape books, especially since unlike comics, Manga doesn't have "jump on" points where you can jump into a story/serial. You have to start from the very beginning unless the manga you are following is something that does only stand-alone/short stories

3. Adding to this, you suffer from manga falling out of print and companies like Viz being very slow to reprint stuff and often only reprinting volumes as part of their "3 in 1" line, which again, has issues with volumes falling out of print and often printing stuff in publication order which leads to long waits for the OOP material to get reprinted if it's a later volume.

4. Publishers often flood the market with stuff, which is what ultimately caused the manga market to crash hard in the mid/late 00s. Only stuff with high profile anime adaptations often stand out or have a chance to find a target audience, but then you have shit like a manga series getting saddled with the names/changes made to an anime's dub, which in turn kills any buying audience for the manga (see Saint Seiya, which got stuck with a lot of the translations from the god-awful butchered DIC dub).

5. No guarantee if a book will be completely collected (as Fist of the North Star fans can attest to)

I came of age when Viz and other companies did monthly comics of their manga titles then trades and was there when they eventually stopped making them/moved over to Shonen Jump US or releasing stuff strictly as trades. I ended up stop buying manga because I could (at the time, when comics were still $3) buy three Marvel or DC comics for the price of one $10 manga volume. I also never really cared much for Shonen Jump US, as they were inconsistent in reprinting stuff (skipping around, dropping strips mid-story, or in the case of One Piece, often skipping 4-5 trades worth of stories every year or two it seemed like, in order to boost trade sales (since those stories would only be in the trades) and try frantically to catch up to the Japanese release of the strip.

 

[verissimus]

I love how proud he is of this. It's cute
View attachment 1018966View attachment 1018967

I also think this is the happiest I've seen Ya Boi in a video in a while and it's for a Gwenpool comic. For the lazy, the comic basically makes fun of the fact that Gwenpool's personality has been drastically different in all of her outings showing that she doesn't actually have much of a personality ironically
https://youtube.com/watch?v=i7ERFo7TF7E

That's a pretty sick cover.

 

[Wise Man]

There are downsides to Manga though:

1. It's $10+ for a volume (especially the more high end stuff, which can go for $20 and gets more complicated when you factor in stuff like Gundam Origin or the JoJo volumes, which are only available in super expensive HCs), making it a bit steeper to blind buy a new series...

$30 for 500 pages in a hardcover is not a steep price! And you aren't blind-buying manga. You can walk into any Barnes and Nobles, pick one up off the shelf, look through and decide if you want to buy it on the same day. You don't have to pay $35 for a floppy you might get in 18 months.

 

[Twinkletard]

Honest question: do you think there's some fundamental difference between American comics and imported manga? Because manga in the US is doing quite well, and the market is continuing to grow even as American comics implodes.

Do you think there's some structural issue that makes them different? (i.e. not self-inflicted due to producing an objectively shit product that costs 10-30x as much per page as the competition, and is marketed almost exclusively towards a shrinking niche audience.) Because obviously superheroes as an entertainment subject (in film and television) are a global phenomenon, and manga as a very similar print entertainment medium is very popular. Heck, a manga about American-style superheroes occupied more than half of the top ten graphic novels sold in the US last year. Aside from incompetence in writing, production and marketing, what can't American comics do that the Japanese can?

Saying "comics were going to die anyway" just sounds like a cope to me.

I like both.

American/western style comics used to be pretty epic. Look at the old xmen and marvel universe pre-2000s and it was this huge universe that seemed to extend endlessly. We never ran out of stories and there was just so much lore and stuff to read. I think after the 2000s and definitely post-disney, marvel lost its way and there's no real continuity or interplay between books anymore. I think that's why the MCU is so popular, because there's just so much material and everything relates to one another while still being episodic. Back in the 80s, xmen was a universe of its own while still being part of the marvel universe. you could spend all your time reading xmen titles like xfactor, new mutants, uncanny, xcalibur, alpha flight, all the individual character stuff, and it still tangentally related to the avengers, spideman, etc.

I remember kids at school would all be following different titles and we could still talk about what was going on. We'd even trade with each other just to keep up on what was happening. I'd haul my longbox of books over to my friend's house and we'd go through each others to see what we'd like to read. Kids at school would talk about what we thought would happen in the next issues, like who cable was (this is before they fucked his origin up) what thanos was doing etc.

Manga is relatively new in the US, even though back in the 80s and 90s we had some access to it. Dark horse and a few other companies reprinted jap books like ghost in the shell and appleseed. Akira was everywhere. Macross too, but in the form of robotech. They weren't extensive universes like Marvel had, but they were individually fun to read.

I think that's where the appeal was: Marvel (and to a much lesser extent DC) had massive and epic things going on, and Manga was more tightly confined in its story approach. There isn't a lot of interrelation between other titles but the artwork and stories by themselves were epic.

Now that Marvel and DC committed suicide, all that's really left is manga and indy comics.

I don't care about whether the format is floppy or bound or whatever. I kind of prefer the floppy issue style when it came to marvel because that's what we got in pieces every month and it was easy to trade with others so you could catch up on other stuff. Maybe it's a format that died because of the internet, and it's a real shame because it was a lot of fun to be served stories that way. Kind of like a soap opera, but with monsters, violence and hot bitches with enormous titties.

As far as indy stuff is concerned, there's a long way to go if they want to be truly successful. Getting one book a year is not going to cut it, especially if you're leaving things as a cliffhanger. If I were Zack, I would forget about Iron Sights and just focus on JB. He should be trying to push out as much material on this as he can and build up a lot of lore. He can really build an awesome universe on this if he wants to, he just needs to focus. Look at cerebus and how much material sim put out there on it. Same with other independent owned stuff like Hellboy.

You've got readers, now you've got to keep them busy and their eyes on your product. If I can read your book while on the toilet in one sit and you're only putting out one of these a year, then you're doing it wrong. You're not going to grow your audience, and your current audience are going to forget about you. I know all the administrative and fulfillment work is hard, but that's life. Sometimes work is about busting your ass, but if you truly care about the work, it makes all the difference.

 

[huckbeine]

TL;DR: Retarded arguments

1. an average manga has 180 pages of content and sells from 5-15 USD. an average comic has an average of 32 pages, and usually 4-12 pages of ads and letters to editors and credits. Even if you buy a "bad" manga, it still has a better value proposition compared to a "good" comic per page.

2. "Jump-on points" is completely fucking reetarded. Here's your manga jumping on point: volume 1. And what makes mangas amazing is that every chapter is specifically created to be read in under 5 minutes, as manga anthologies are meant to be read in the train while going to work/school/whatever in 10 to 20 minutes. You can read 20 volumes of a manga of a long running series like Naruto in a single afternoon and keep up already in the story.

In fact "Jumping-on points" is what makes comics so unappealing to an average reader. There is no set beginning and end of the story, and since there are "jumping-on points" shows that most comic book stories are inconsequential. And that point is exacerbated by the fact that comics have retcons and return to status quo. Is Death of Superman needed? I mean he returned after all... is Civil War relevant? I mean One More Day basically retconned it. Oh yeah, Captain America died, but yeah, he's actually alive and a Hydra agent and he's actually just want to make Hydra great again.

3. Average manga circulation is 100,000 - 150,000 to be distributed among comic bookshops and bookstores. Reprints depends on how fast the sell through rate. If it can sell its inventory in a few weeks or a month or two, then it will get reprinted easily. But an average manga has a sell through rate of a year or 2. If that is that particular manga selling rate, then its not actually worth it to reprint. I see this as a better solution than dumping huge amounts of comic issues just due to speculation and retcon to #1.

4. There are many reasons that manga crashed in 2000s, but the biggest factors are not what you listed. The biggest factor is Tokyopop flooding the market with americamanga, which created a situation similar to High Guardian Spice, and DC and Marvel sabotaging the manga industry by setting up publishing houses to publish manga and butcher them completely. God, the meltdown over Tenjou Tenge was glorious.

Manga has its faults too, but your arguments are actually not good.

 

[Twinkletard]

1. an average manga has 180 pages of content and sells from 5-15 USD. an average comic has an average of 32 pages, and usually 4-12 pages of ads and letters to editors and credits. Even if you buy a "bad" manga, it still has a better value proposition compared to a "good" comic per page.

2. "Jump-on points" is completely fucking reetarded. Here's your manga jumping on point: volume 1. And what makes mangas amazing is that every chapter is specifically created to be read in under 5 minutes, as manga anthologies are meant to be read in the train while going to work/school/whatever in 10 to 20 minutes. You can read 20 volumes of a manga of a long running series like Naruto in a single afternoon and keep up already in the story.

In fact "Jumping-on points" is what makes comics so unappealing to an average reader. There is no set beginning and end of the story, and since there are "jumping-on points" shows that most comic book stories are inconsequential. And that point is exacerbated by the fact that comics have retcons and return to status quo. Is Death of Superman needed? I mean he returned after all... is Civil War relevant? I mean One More Day basically retconned it. Oh yeah, Captain America died, but yeah, he's actually alive and a Hydra agent and he's actually just want to make Hydra great again.

3. Average manga circulation is 100,000 - 150,000 to be distributed among comic bookshops and bookstores. Reprints depends on how fast the sell through rate. If it can sell its inventory in a few weeks or a month or two, then it will get reprinted easily. But an average manga has a sell through rate of a year or 2. If that is that particular manga selling rate, then its not actually worth it to reprint. I see this as a better solution than dumping huge amounts of comic issues just due to speculation and retcon to #1.

4. There are many reasons that manga crashed in 2000s, but the biggest factors are not what you listed. The biggest factor is Tokyopop flooding the market with americamanga, which created a situation similar to High Guardian Spice, and DC and Marvel sabotaging the manga industry by setting up publishing houses to publish manga and butcher them completely. God, the meltdown over Tenjou Tenge was glorious.

Manga has its faults too, but your arguments are actually not good.

I'm not aware of any, but do you know if there are any manga series that have been an ongoing series? It seems like pretty much all have a beginning, middle, and end.

 

[huckbeine]

I would like to say, Kochikame, but it ended in 2016 for running in 40 years with 400 volumes. So I don't actually know....

 

[Twinkletard]

I would like to say, Kochikame, but it ended in 2016 for running in 40 years with 400 volumes. So I don't actually know....

I'll check it out. I really like ultra long and epic style stories that I can binge on for weeks.

 

[huckbeine]

I'll check it out. I really like ultra long and epic style stories that I can binge on for weeks.

nah, its a story about a laid back cop and its a comedy, so, its not exactly an epic series

 

[Wise Man]

I'm not aware of any, but do you know if there are any manga series that have been an ongoing series? It seems like pretty much all have a beginning, middle, and end.

Ongoing? You mean like One Piece, Detective Conan, Naruto? Those have been going on for decades.

Detective Conan has been going on for 25 years, but in-universe we're supposed to only think that 6 months has passed in all that time. It's around chapter 1050 or so. A lot of the chapters follow a formula that any one picking it up could be entertained by. A crime is has been committed and Conan and friends work through the way to catch the culprit. There is usually a mix of light-hearted comedy and antics to break up the seriousness of some of the affairs. Every so often they have a "plot" chapter that reveals more about the shadowy organization behind some heinous activities.

Naruto currently focuses on his kid Boruto. Naruto grew up, saved the world, got the girl, became the boss of his ninja village and had 2 kids.

 

[Twinkletard]

Ongoing? You mean like One Piece, Detective Conan, Naruto? Those have been going on for decades.

Detective Conan has been going on for 25 years, but in-universe we're supposed to only think that 6 months has passed in all that time. It's around chapter 1050 or so. A lot of the chapters follow a formula that any one picking it up could be entertained by. A crime is has been committed and Conan and friends work through the way to catch the culprit. There is usually a mix of light-hearted comedy and antics to break up the seriousness of some of the affairs. Every so often they have a "plot" chapter that reveals more about the shadowy organization behind some heinous activities.

Naruto currently focuses on his kid Boruto. Naruto grew up, saved the world, got the girl, became the boss of his ninja village and had 2 kids.

I'll have to check these out as well. As far as current manga, the only things I've have experience with is the newer star blazers 2199 and 2202. I remember the anime from when they brought it over to the US when I was a kid. I've been reading nihei's blame and aposimz. He's probably my favorite current artist

 

[Wise Man]

I'll have to check these out as well. As far as current manga, the only things I've have experience with is the newer star blazers 2199 and 2202. I remember the anime from when they brought it over to the US when I was a kid. I've been reading nihei's blame and aposimz. He's probably my favorite current artist

It's been mentioned several times, but if you are into Starblazers and scifi in general, check out the Gundam Origin hardcovers. They clock in at around 500 pages each and I believe there are 10 or 12 volumes in the series. Awesome space opera with a big influence from Star Wars.

If you don't mind darker themes, Knights of Sidonia is entertaining, but felt a little rushed.

And back to whatever, anyone else catch the JACK show before it was taken down*? ES shrieked at the top of his lungs at a video of Doug for supporting the Salvation Army. This admidst Chick-fil-A being seemingly bullied into discontinuing their donations to the christian charity.

The Salvation Army provides suicide prevention to gay teens, but has joined with other groups in the past in the support of traditional definitions of marriage. So supporting them will have some tender souls scream homophobe at your image during a fun live stream. I don't think Anna signed up for that.

 

[Comic's Best Sandwich]

And back to whatever, anyone else catch the JACK show before it was taken down? ES shrieked at the top of his lungs at a video of Doug for supporting the Salvation Army. This admidst Chick-fil-A being seemingly bullied into discontinuing their donations to the christian charity.

This sounds like it was pretty funny to watch.

 

[Wise Man]

*Edit: can't find it by browsing on Anna's channel, but the url for it works. ES broke his own rule about criticizing other artist's work, kek. He claims to dislike Doug's art, yet supported BFB. Makes it look like he'll support any project, regardless of quality, as long as they brand themselves CG.

CG "respects the customer" = Put out late books, sell the customer garbage, exclude Christians

 

[TheSoutherStar]

He claims to dislike Doug's art, yet supported BFB. Makes it look like he'll support any project, regardless of quality, as long as they brand themselves CG.

They considered themselves internet friends so they were financially supportive of each other regardless of their opinions towards each other's skills. Similarly, nobody should criticize doug for saying he didn't like cyberfrog but bought it anyway.

Normal socially-functional people can be supportive regardless of whether or not they like their friends and family's cooking.

 

[Mr. Potatohead]

*Edit: can't find it by browsing on Anna's channel, but the url for it works. ES broke his own rule about criticizing other artist's work, kek. He claims to dislike Doug's art, yet supported BFB. Makes it look like he'll support any project, regardless of quality, as long as they brand themselves CG.

CG "respects the customer" = Put out late books, sell the customer garbage, exclude Christians

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DDut0t9G9Ew

Doug left he wasn't excluded. He's criticized because he's an asshole not because he's a Christian.
Also he's a year and a half late with the Bigfoot Bill video game and screwed over international backers.

 

[huckbeine]

I'll have to check these out as well. As far as current manga, the only things I've have experience with is the newer star blazers 2199 and 2202. I remember the anime from when they brought it over to the US when I was a kid. I've been reading nihei's blame and aposimz. He's probably my favorite current artist

Last comment before we go back to regular scheduled cape comic sperging

If you want a great space epic, get the Legend of Galatic Heroes novels, they have been finally translated and its awesome.

or alternatively, watch the OVA, which spans 110 episodes. Also, get them in the original laserdisc animation, if possible not the remastered, because they redrew a lot of the missing animation cels. The series is full of great wisdom

And with that, I return you to the regular scheduled comicsgate sperging

 

[Mr_Fan]

And with that, I return you to the regular scheduled comicsgate sperging

I just backed Jawbreakers GØD-K1NG, Iron Sights 2, Earthbound and The Meg. All of them look fantastic.

There are many great books that are going to be coming out due to indie comic book fans supporting many amazing creators. Regardless of what minor damage certain individual creators may cause by being anti-consumer and extremely late with their books, the whole of ComicsGate has still been a very positive experience. At least, that's my perspective. I've been introduced to more fantastic artists, fans and books through ComicsGate and Ya Boi Zack than I would have if it had never existed.

 

[Wise Man]

A single good month doesn't erase the years the comics industry has been bleeding relevance and talent.

 

[Detrogen]

Spawn 300 isn’t a good example of a comic doing well in the current industry. It’s a milestone issue of well-known character. Of course it was going to sell well. Couple that with the fact that McFarlane actually bothered to get off his ass and draw the issue it was pretty much guaranteed to turn heads.

All those things factored in, the current story on Spawn is unreadable, poorly edited garbage and I’m sure 2-3 issues from now McFarlane and Capullo are going to stop contributing art and going back to letting Jason Shawn Alexander do all the heavy lifting. 302 has already slid back into McFarlane doing only a small portion of the actual art.

Give it a few months. Spawn’s numbers are going to drop again very fast.