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Even funnier considering modern Lois and her very thinly veiled contempt for the League, Bruce and Diana in particular.
DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups
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Battlefield2142EU
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Even if it's confirmed, he was fired from the brave and bold. James Gunn's Batman will be a continuation of his post-flash vision for DC. More time goes on. I am becoming a full believer in WB pushing Robert Paterson to be the DCU Batman. When both Matt Reeves and James Gunn are now teasing the possibility of Robert Patterson Batman joining the DCU while only the flash director outright denying it. You can tell WB panicking in the background.
ArthuriusMartyrius
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S:TAS wasn't particularly good for Superman either with some minor exceptions. Even the world of cardboard speech is undermined by the fact that Superman gets wrecked like only a few minutes after it. I remember reading some BTS trivia from the DCAU days about Tim Daly constantly needing breaks to rest his voice during recording sessions because so much of the dialogue was just him grunting and yelling in pain. Maybe it's just me but when so much of your Superman show involves the titular character being constantly hurt to the extent that the voice actor is constantly needing rest due to his voice being so hoarse from screaming so much, you're writing Superman wrong.
Catwoman is also canonically supposed to have a massive crush on Superman and constantly flirts with him yet I haven't seen any DC media showcasing that in decades while Lois and Batman being a thing at some point in their history is a pretty consistent feature.
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Or how about telling people that this movie does not matter when they announced the whole cinematic universe was to be rebooted before hand?
Mystery Spy
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This is something I wish more authors would explore in depth. Usually, only strawman characters or the "evil psychologist" bring it up, but I think it's a valid point. Gotham City has produced, through tragedy, a lot of dangerously insane people who act out according to their obsessive fixations.
It's easy to overlook and assume Batman is somehow different from all his villains. But he isn’t. It just so happens that his obsession turned out to be a heroic one. Don’t get me wrong—Batman is ultimately a hero because he conquered his demons and uses his strength for good, and yes ultimately he is an admirable characters, because he uses his pain to help others. But he is very much as much a child of Gotham as Two-Face or the Joker, and all the other villains are.
I agree with you. I wouldn’t call Superman: The Animated Series badly written, especially since Bruce Timm and the team made a sincere effort to create a quality show. That’s a far cry from modern woke shows, which often ruin characters they dislike This show got a lot of things right, such as how they modernized and adapted The New Gods, Supergirl, Mxyzptlk, and Lex Luthor etc.
Don’t get me wrong—I have few complaints about the DCAU as a whole. They made a genuine effort to highlight lesser-known characters at the time, like John Stewart and Hawkgirl, which I really appreciated. A lot of it was superbly written.
That being said, I think people overlook how obvious it is that Bruce Timm and his team were far more comfortable with, and perhaps even showed favoritism toward, Batman. This becomes especially clear later in the DCAU. Personally, I think that while they didn’t attempt any character assassination, their handling of Superman did have issues that many overlook due to nostalgia.
I think they were so afraid of making Superman overpowered—like he was in Superfriends and the comics—that they overcompensated. They nerfed him so much that, in their own words, he came across as a wimp, which was another issue entirely. I don’t attribute this to malice, which is why I’m not being too harsh on them. They did try, but I don’t think many of them were truly passionate about the Superman mythos in their era either.
ArthuriusMartyrius
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I disagree because then it ends up being another example of "trying to make Batman so realistic that it ends up ridiculous". If you're going to try and psychoanalyze Batman's character and claim that he's insane then you need to apply the same kind of consistency to everyone from Superman to Spider-Man to Iron Man. Batman doesn't kill because he wholeheartedly believes in the sanctity of life and the chance for redemption, simple and to the point, you don't need to write justification about how Batman is secretly insane and a hair's breadth away from becoming a crazy axe murderer.
Oh yeah, New Gods, Mxyzptlk and Luthor were quite well done. Mxyzptlk's episode is one of my favorites in the show.
I actually kind of blame DCAU for making John Stewart less interesting due to making him into a bland military man and Hawkgirl's presence was a total mistake since she just ended up having an almost interchangeable personality with Wonder Woman plus it pissed off a shitload of Hawkman/Hawkwoman comic fans with how the show treated their lore and Hawkman's character in general. But that's a whole other rant about Dwayne McDuffie...
Mystery Spy
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That wasn’t what I was implying at all.
I wasn’t referring to the "no kill rule," nor was I suggesting that he would have become a murderer. I simply used that point as a starting place to discuss something else. My take is that, as I mentioned in that post, while Batman is a good person, he is ultimately, like his villains, another victim of Gotham's wickedness.
I think Batman himself has stated that "he is a rich kid with lots of issues" and that "his head is not a nice place to be." I’m not being reductive by saying "he is just insane, lol." It's more nuanced than that. I believe that, at his core, he is broken. Batman is Bruce’s way of dealing with loss, and through that persona, he channels his pain into a war against crime. He has trouble making genuine connections with people, and in the DCAU version, he ends up as a bitter, lonely old man. This is interesting to explore because, at the end of the day, he is just human.
While Batman’s origin isn’t unique in being tragic, most of the others you mentioned were also granted powers in some form, which makes it less far-fetched for them to have found a "good" use for them. Bruce, however, is just a man who decided to go to war against crime—a war he can never win—and dress in a batsuit despite being a billionaire. This works fine in the more lighthearted interpretations of comics, like what Adam West did, but in more realistic versions, it's worth exploring how, at his core, he is dealing with grief. And while he may never fully move on, there is room for healing.
TL;DR I want writers to explore his pain and grief; I am not trying to rationalize a superhero story with realism.
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ArthuriusMartyrius
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I actually understood what you were implying, I just went off on a slight tangent about how annoying I find that "Batman is kinda insane" take because the moment you start exploring that, you run the risk of destroying your audience's disbelief with how utterly retarded the entire concept is. It also runs the risk of turning into the "modern Warner Bros." problem of being so utterly embarrassed by the silliness of the character that you spend way too much time justifying things about a character that shouldn't need to be justified. DCAU is also heavily influenced by the fact that at the time it was running, DC was obsessed with the whole "Bruce is the mask" idea.
Not the case for Tony Stark. Which is why every "realistic" take on the character doubles down on him being an egoistic asshole.
Most comics establish that Bruce is only motivated by grief when he starts out as Batman. As he continues, he gets over it and starts being motivated purely by the desire to do good.
Mystery Spy
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Hence the reason I said "most." Even so he definively lacks Bruce tragedy as motivation . One could argue Yinsen's death pushed him, but ultimately he was just a dude Tony barely knew as an adult as opposed to Bruce losing his parents as a kid.
To reiterate, I think exploring Bruce's humanity, and not so sane behaviour, isn't an idea that is opposed to accepting the inherent sillyness of superheroes.
I personally think they did more good than harm with John Stewart—for one main reason. For an entire generation, he, not Hal Jordan, was the Green Lantern. The comic fandom is a whole other animal, but the DCAU firmly put him on the map in pop culture.
As for Shayera, I think the issue had more to do with how bland Diana was written than with Hawkgirl herself. If anything Hawkgirl ended up being one of the best characters.
The two ended up feeling interchangeable because Diana, in the DCAU, wasn’t written particularly well. There’s actually a subtle difference between the two: Diana was supposed to be more naive, and idealistic, while Shayera was meant to be more jaded and street-smart. And arguably Hawk girl ended up taking Diana's defining traits such as love for fighting. But I agree in that both had the tomboy tough brawler girl from a warrior race role overlapping a bit too much
The DCAU did a lot of things incredibly well, but Diana’s characterization wasn’t one of them. That said, their use of her mythology was handled very well. Don’t get me wrong—she wasn’t terrible, but she wasn’t amazing either.
I’d describe Wonder Woman’s characterization in the DCAU as serviceable, but not strong enough to make her most people’s favorite character. In fact she is mostly remembered these days as one of Batman's love interests. But nobody is demanding more adventures of that particular version of her
Ultimately in my opinion Shayera ended up being better written than Diana in this show. Her whole betrayal and redemption arch, or her romance with John ( the ups and lows) elevated her. Diana lacked anything close to that.
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The DCAU did one thing right, Clark, that depiction is one of the best versions of the Kansas King, confident but not the ideal of Superman, snarky without it being too much, goofy without being slapstick and very much being shown as “the guy” with Superman’s “larger than life” attitude being a bit of a show for people, he’s still a good man, but he’s not the Boy Scout, he never was. They wisely made Clark and Bruce both very flawed and made Flash the heart of the team.
That version of Clark genuinely feels like a guy you could bump into and not think much of and in that sense, it’s perfect.
That version of Clark genuinely feels like a guy you could bump into and not think much of and in that sense, it’s perfect.
Basic Blond Boy
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Tony is still a mess though, arguably even more than Bruce. The comics consistently have him devolve either due to alcoholism or some Mr. Fantastic need to control everything, as is the case in Civil War.
As for the more loved film version, dude is a train wreck. He becomes Iron Man after having to come to terms that his family legacy is used to kill people. Pretty clearly devolves in Iron Man 2 out of pure ego (Movie is poor, so usually skip this one), then gets his big hero moment in Avengers. After Avengers, the dude surprisingly devolves further becoming a PTSD-ridden mess in 3, continuously tinkering with his suits out of paranoia of losing everything. Avengers 2 has him create the villain, then nearly do it again because he wants the fight to be over. We also get the line from Scarlet Witch regarding there being some level of darkness in him. Then Civil War happens and has him imprison his friends because he feels he needs the government to watch over him.
This ^
Diana didn’t do shit in the DCAU. Say what you want about Hawkgirl, but she was very clearly the stronger female lead. Her relationship with John was sweet, giving us cute moments like the Christmas episode where they got into snow and bar fights. She had a cute big sister/wingman relationship with the Flash, getting him with Fire. Her relationship with Grundy was another highlight. The part where she lied about her beliefs in God to help him settle, along with her bringing him peace in the sewer really added a lot to her. Then of course, as @Mystery Spy said, the betrayal story also gave her a great deal.
By contrast, the only time Wonder Woman ever seemed to have a real personality was when they turned her into /co/ pedo-bait with loli WW. I know /co/ is degenerate, but loli WW was the only time I can remember Diana doing much of anything, her going mom mode on baby Etrigan was funny and her bossy personality was something I wish they did more of.
I like the angle of Batman being more troubled as I believe it gives him an interesting edge over most comic characters. What I hate about this edge, even going into the DCAU, is how this translates to Batman being a major prick. I hate the New Adventures/Beyond Bruce, along with the later Arkham games portrayal that it would inspire. He is just such an asshole to everyone, especially sidekicks like Robin who he should be getting lighter around.
The DCAU’s Dick Grayson was pretty bad given that Timm hated Robin. The fact that they went all in on Bruce cucking him for more drama actively kills the character for me. Then with Tim and Barbara, they make it no secret that Bruce ruined their lives in this universe, which makes Batman just feel terrible. I vastly prefer The Batman 2004, Young Justice or B&TB where Batman gets more healthy as he makes connections and becomes a struggling, but overall effective father/mentor figure to the younger heroes.
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When you think about it, you can count on one hand the episodes that have Diana stand out. "The Savage Time" arc where she meets Steve Trevor in the past and later the present, "Maid of Honor" where she acts as a big sister for Princess Audrey, "Hawk and Dove" where she cannot defeat the Annihilator by fighting it, and "To Another Shore" even if she was used a mouthpiece to push the global warming agenda.
Cactuar King
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And yet WW still got the most episodes focused on her in Season One of JLU (while Flash only had non-speaking cameos in crowds).
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I'm watching the live-action Lois & Clark show from the 90s at the moment, and the Clark Kent as depicted by Dean Cain in that show is remarkably similar to the sly and efficient Clark from STAS, particularly in the way he trades verbal blows and aggressively competes with Lois at the Daily Planet. The similar takes on Clark make sense, since both shows use John Byrne's Man of Steel run as a basis for most of the characters.
Also, Terri Hatcher's Lois is bratty and cute. She might be my favorite actress to play Lois so far.
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Basic Blond Boy
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I've been telling people for 20 years since I was a kid Dean Cain is the best Clark Kent and Superman for these reasons (hence the profile pic lol) the only people who ramble on about boy scout shit are people who know absolutely dick about Superman. sure Dean Cain is Japanese or whatever so the looks a little weird, but whatever. He's from space I don't care. but in the pilot (or early on) Lois goes on some long ramble about how Clark isn't shit she's the ace reporter he's her lackey blah blah blah and goes got that clark? and he smirks at her and is like sure thing lois, you like to be on top. and she gets all flustered. that's some chad Clark Kent shit. Not some faggy uh okay Lois I'm a pussy that everyone writes him as.
It's probably because I'm from farmtown Kansas but I hate how most superman is portrayed. they just don't get it. Clark is basically the one high school jock who wasn't interested in date rape and got good grades and sort of kept to himself because he had farm chores at home but not a complete blubbering dumbass. the type of guy who in general would never hurt a fly but would help you beat the shit out of someone who assaulted your wife or something. a smart guy with sort of cornball sense of humor and tastes, would talk good natured shit with his buddies, generally happy go lucky but you better not get on that guy's shit list which is unusually small because he's forgiving and easy going but he will fuck you up.
It's like the no kill thing. superman besides more recent depictions really doesn't have one (and shouldn't) but he's almost always going to find the way to avoid it because he thinks everyone deserves a second chance, but if it's someone like darkseid or brainiac who in context he knows there's no chance of changing their mind or no other options, he'll do it.
ArthuriusMartyrius
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Jesus Christ that last shot of Supes flying with the camera in his face is such blatantly obvious CGI. Also the more I see of Corenswet's dopey face the more I miss Cavill. Dude may have had shitty material to work with but boy did he have charisma in spades.
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Yeah I just don’t like the mutt but we were spoiled in that we’ve had what? Four actors who were 1:1 just comic Clark. Reeve, Welling, Routh and Cavill were all spot-on
Yeah that’s how I like Clark, my favorite from the Byrne run is when him and Lois are going to cover some event and they meet up at his place, he’s still getting ready (laser shaving) and while he’s doing so, Lois goes over to his weights and pretty much just says, “This is pussy weight, you’re pathetic.”
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Quarterback Rex Grossman
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Has anyone bothered asking Pattinson if he wants to be in a gay team-up movie? That he even agreed to play Batman at all was a minor miracle.