DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[Alexander Thaut]

fucking fantasy world.

ngl I can see "aestheticfags" arguing on Gotham vs Metropolis within the universe.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

Jimmy has a very important role to fulfill

 

[Incecticyder]

"Marvel is the world outside your window and its heroes are humans trying to be gods."

"DC is the world you aspire to and its heroes are gods trying to be humans."

I think that those two sentences describe those two universes the best. Marvel is the world that is the super reflection of our own. Same problems but people have superpowers. All the heroes try to pretend they are great but they are just as flawed as us and are brought down by human flaws. DC is the world that inspires us and teaches us to hold ourselves in higher standards. The DC heroes have reached godlike power but are fighting tooth and nail to keep their humanity that is valuable to them.

There problem is that those two worlds are so different that trying to get inspiration from each other is hard and often counterintuitive.

 

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

I like all the thought put into "golden age" heroes, but i just would like some modern stuff too, think about the modern day, no one gives a fuck about groups that may have existed in the 1940s, even The Boys basically shoves all of the 20th century into one mushy "bad" era. where a nazi and a 1980s hero are basically the same thing and have the same viewpoints. And it works on normie audiences because they believe that to be 100% true.

I could easily believe the Justice Society being like a superhero group in the 1990s/2000s and as world famous as the guys from Viva la bam and also vanishing completely with no one caring by the time the 2000s ends. ask zoomers about dane cook, or millenials or genX. He went from starring in films to "who?" just like Bam Margera.

have the group age out of relevance or whatever. if Superman or Batman is 25 then they'd be just past the age where the earlier groups would be relevant. Maybe the JLS could be a metaphor for Stop-and-frisk and the 90s Crime bill, instead of Mayor Rudy coming to power because of Crown Heights, instead Jay Garrick puts a stop to the riots and him and others clean up the streets after Rodney King and are looked down upon by many of the people Bruce and Clark's age because of it

then you have the vigilanties of the 2010s which influence Batman's no guns rule as they prove more trouble than their worth and then you have the 2020s where crime and injustice have become so huge people need heroes again.

-People begin dubbing them sarcastic names. The Man of Steel. The Dark Knight, Boy Wonder, Dynamic Duo. But they soon become less and less sarcastic. Then beloved. Then everyone knows who you speak about when you write those names down.

people forget Michael Jackson was extremely mocked when he first was called "the king of pop", plenty of people were pissed off about it. but now its just considered a normal term. same with Elvis and the king of rock n roll. Stern's "king of all media" was him mocking the idea of michael jackson being "king of pop" yet in a few years the joke name became normal

But it's not enough once Batman comes to the fore and he evolves from a hardcore soulless thug to THE Joker,

that was something i think Arkham Origins or WHTTCC did that i liked. basically Batman becomes such a focal point for the joker he spends less time killing and more time trying to figure out and stop the batman. Thats sort of the point of him too, all these creeps spend so much time making elaborate plans and having to deal with the batman issue they can't focus too much on the usual cartel and mafia bullshit that used to be easy to pull off in Gotham.

Like how crime in hell's kitchen went from robberies to mortgage fraud.

 

[Mayor Cody Travers]

that was something i think Arkham Origins or WHTTCC did that i liked. basically Batman becomes such a focal point for the joker he spends less time killing and more time trying to figure out and stop the batman. Thats sort of the point of him too, all these creeps spend so much time making elaborate plans and having to deal with the batman issue they can't focus too much on the usual cartel and mafia bullshit that used to be easy to pull off in Gotham.

Like how crime in hell's kitchen went from robberies to mortgage fraud.

Bingo, that's part of this process. I remember the end credits of Batman Begins had Gordon saying crime seemed to be evolving to match up to Batman as well via showing the Joker card as a teaser for The Dark Knight.

The more I think on it, I could have really just whittled down a lot of this take's point in terms of characterization to being "taking IRL three-dimensional people and personalities, and EVOLVING them into the stereo/archetypes we know the characters as." I think that would be quite the fascinating, if ironic - since they're nominally "simplifying" - character study in and of itself to see. Completely regular people becoming the larger-than-life forces of nature, step by step, each one making sense specifically in its context but not in a larger picture. IE:

"A lazy dog is a slow pup.
A slope up is an inclined plane.
An ink lined plane is a sheet of paper."

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Again, the entire point is "how can we make RL and all its genuine bleakness and misery evolve, indisputably, into DC Classic?"

For a DC film universe, my idea would personally be that we start in an optimistic place, but it falls in the second act. To bring up Marvel, they did their universe in 3 phases. Following that as a general outline, I think having a Cadmus arc as the second phase would be an incredible way to flesh out the world and characters.

For context, during the first phase, I would have it that we establish a Justice League, a Teen Titans and a Legion of Doom. The individual films are basic hero narratives where the hero and their sidekicks are already established so we get that parent/mentorship dynamic between the League and their younger counterparts. I feel like this would add a level of warmth to the films, a humanity. The villains are threats, but the stories in general are more silly and wacky, playing into the DC Universe as @el bandito loco put in his version. The ending of this phase sees the formation of the JL as they have a big dumb fight against all the villains we saw in phase 1, while the Teen Titans take on the nothingburger villains of the Hive in their first outing. By the end of JL, we start to get a glimpse of a more sinister side to DC as Amanda Waller steps out and starts negotiating the JL as a potential threat to US security, seeding the storyline of phase 2.

With phase 2, I feel like it would be impactful to see the morality of the fun goofy world start to shake. Things get more dire as that "real" element starts to rear its head and the JL get increasingly more seen as villains between movies. As a general outline for what I would like to do with Phase 2:

Spoiler: DC Phase 2

1. Superman - We get Superman vs The Elite. The Elite are contracting by Waller / Cadmus as a new government run group of heroes, positioned in a way to have them as the "fighters for freedom" as they will kill threats to America. Superman gets positioned as outdated and even a potential threat throughout the film as his intervention of the Elite is seen as him being un-American. Leslie Willis, a famous internet influencer, continues to rail against Superman as part of her show, seeding increasing amounts of distrust during the event. Just like the story the film is based on, Superman pulls a stunt to show the people the errors of violence, but unlike the source material, it backfires. Leslie takes the entire display and portrays it as violent acts by Superman, that he could have killed these great Americans who were doing right by their country. And, I mean, look at what he can do, the destruction, he clearly cannot be allowed to operate around normal people. *With Superman, we now get the beginning of a tone switch for the league.
2. Batman - Gotham is now getting hit with many elites being taken out by what they claim is a "bat-like figure." Batman, along with new sidekick Jason Todd, get strung along in a series of political conflicts as Gotham's elite, the Court of Owls, are currently in a power struggle with the League of Assassins. Spearheading the League's attack is Lady Shiva sending her daughter Cassandra out in Bat attire to not only kill their enemy, but also wreck Batman's reputation. The story plays out as a big thriller of the war between the two factions, while an underlying theme of the parallels of Batman's parenting of Jason and Shiva's of Cassandra play out. Shiva treats Cassandra like a disposable weapon, and while Batman does treat Jason very well, there is that underlying feeling that he is nothing more than a Dick substitute, only furthered by him being a hated Robin by the public given the new bat claims. Eventually, feelings of inadequacy get the best of Jason and he goes out on his own to kill the Joker, only for it to be a trap by the League. Ras set up Joker to kill Jason, then using his political influence, made Joker the Ambassador of Iran. If Batman attacks Joker it will be an international incident. Ras gives Batman an ultimatum of joining the League to take revenge. Batman does not accept, obviously, leaving an ending of Batman watching the news as the Joker talks about the dangers of Batman, showing pictures of Jason's bloody corpse as evidence. On a more hopeful note, at least Cassandra did break away and is Bruce's daughter at this point.
3. Wonder Woman - Ares is the main villain and plays WW in to getting involved in larger World conflicts. Not as thought out about the story of this one, but I think the end should be a scene similar to New Frontier, where Diana saves slaves of war and gives them the power to fight back, in this case against Ares, but just like New Frontier it end in dire consequences. The world sees Diana as a war criminal, someone who aided foreign powers. In addition, I would include Artemis as the new Wonder Girl of this film, having her get built by this new world of violence and hatred, leading to the Outlaws ideology her and *spoiler* Jason would adapt in phase 3.
4. Aquaman - Do a basic Orm (Ocean Master) story. Orm overthrows Aquaman as king and fearmongers Atlanteans into raging war against the surface, obviously throwing Atlantis on the shit list.
5. Flash - Feel like a story throwing Flash into the middle of the politics of Gorilla City would be the best connector to the theme. Grodd could portray himself as an ally to the world looking to make grand developments that would benefit both human and ape kind. Being that this is Grodd, it is of course a lie as he builds up an army and tech to destroy humanity. Flash will learn the truth and help Solovar reclaim the throne Grodd stole, but since Grodd made such a great impression to the world, people hate Flash for overthrowing the government.
6. Green Lantern - Just bring out the Manhunters as a threat that attacks Coast City and leads to it nearly being destroyed. Personally, I think the story should go that attacks are happening across the galaxy by the Manhunters. Hal is hunting them down, but on the side, is getting into a more romantic relationship with his boss, Carol Ferris. Continually leaving her to handle the intergalactic conflict, Carol grows more abandoned. Eventually, she gets the inducted into the Star Sapphire corps and, as usual, goes crazy hunting her boyfriend down. The plot should continue, Hal learns of the Guardians involvement in the Manhunters, Carol and Hal fight only for Hal to break through to Carol, and Carol reforms the Sapphires. The ending sees the two plots meet as Hal and Carol save their city from the Manhunters, bring the Green Lantern Corps and Star Sapphire Corps together. At the end, Hal, wanting to tell the truth, admits that the Manhunters were from the Guardians to clear the air of any more lies. This being phase 2 however, this exact admission would be the downfall of GL.
7. Green Arrow - Arrow gets involved in the conflicts of Vlatava, protecting the young princess Perdita Vladek from her uncle Count Vertigo who wants to kill her take control of the land. Vertigo is a longstanding UN ally who paints GA as terrorist trying to spring his country into Communism now that the rest of Vertigo's family has "unfortunately perished." On the side are two other stories. Black Canary is trying to reconnect with Wildcat, who is taking up fighting as a means to feel wanted again. Given the current state of supers, he only feels hatred outside the ring as people have begun to turn on him and his JSA buddies. The people don't cheer for Wildcat unless he is brutally beating a man now. On the other side, you have Speedy, neglected by both his parental figures and during an extreme amount of stress given that he is a target to the UN. In his poor state, Speedy takes up heroin as a relief.
8. JL - The Justice League finally go to war with Cadmus. Similar to the DCAU, Cadmus is just a front for Luthor to do his usual BS, bringing in Brainiac for the final battle where the League and the governments have to put aside their differences to defeat him. For more drama, I will argue that Flash should die in this movie as a last punch to kill Brainiac. The movie will end with a New Frontiers styled speech about coming together and the future as we see everyone mourning Barry Allen and Wally finally taking up the suit.

I still have kinks I got to work out (and additional films for the lesser known characters), but my idea would be that DC begins to have this more bleak outcome come the second phase. Conflicts get more complicated and the JL are being played in a way similar to the DCAUs Cadmus or Young Justice's The Light. Luthor learned from JL 1 that a villains league won't cut it, so now him and others begin a smear campaign, playing to public fear from the shadows.

 

[Your Starter for 10]

If I were starting the DCU, I'd start right away with Identity Crisis. Just take everything as a given, with all the c-listers and obscure adjacent characters, with everything already set up and the way it is. No origins or lore developed, jist accept that the audience can piece it together. It's a simple murder mystery with the interesting premise that superheroes are involved. Solid half hour first act with the low tier guys, then Bats and Supes show up at the crime scene.

Take out the Mindwipe stuff, so you're not impacting the whole system with that right off the bat. Then you have the universe established and can go out from there with any of the heroes, whether they are individual hero movies or teams.

 

[DeadwastePrime]

too early to call but i really want them to adapt the first 6 issues of absolute batman to like an animated movie or miniseries

 

[el bandito loco]

another thing is I want character interactions that are just them as people. Somebody a while ago in here mentioned Rick Veitch's The Question and that made me think of exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. Maybe unrelated to anything else in a Batman or Superman or even JLA movie in some down time on the Watchtower you'd have Clark sitting down with Hal and Ollie having a beer watching TV or something and asking Ollie, "what the hell is up with your buddy Vic Sage? You know that guy is" -- and batman walks by and interrupts "obsessed with your wife" "yeah! He is! but not even that I had to personally drag him out of my city because he kept killing people. What's his fuckin' problem?" And they have a laugh about it, Ollie being basically like you kicked him out of metropolis? And Clark telling him, I had to! I couldn't let him just keep throwing guys off of buildings and writing Lois love letters and shit! He was really pissing me off.

Little things like that, that are just interesting moments and dynamics but also add little stuff to the world to emphasize this is just the world these guys live in, you and your buddies might be getting together for a beer and a football game gossiping about people at work and these guys do that, but they're the fucking Justice League of America. Flash might be eating a whole table worth of food telling Diana how he got stuck in the electromagnetic spectrum itself because mirror master and gorilla grodd were fucking with him this morning.

Shit like on titans tower something minor is fucked up and Dick goes ill call my uncle and uses a signal watch and Superman bursts in like he's going to have to come kill someone because he gave him that for his 13th birthday and in 10 years he never touched it until now and its a misunderstanding, dick just needed to ask a question. And then beast boy is following dick around being like wait a minute your uncle is Superman? Batman is superman's brother? What the fuck dude? Little goofy shit.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

another thing is I want character interactions that are just them as people. Somebody a while ago in here mentioned Rick Veitch's The Question and that made me think of exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. Maybe unrelated to anything else in a Batman or Superman or even JLA movie in some down time on the Watchtower you'd have Clark sitting down with Hal and Ollie having a beer watching TV or something and asking Ollie, "what the hell is up with your buddy Vic Sage? You know that guy is" -- and batman walks by and interrupts "obsessed with your wife" "yeah! He is! but not even that I had to personally drag him out of my city because he kept killing people. What's his fuckin' problem?" And they have a laugh about it, Ollie being basically like you kicked him out of metropolis? And Clark telling him, I had to! I couldn't let him just keep throwing guys off of buildings and writing Lois love letters and shit! He was really pissing me off.

All I could think of reading this is:

 

[Mystery Spy]

What annoys me endlessly about Snyder and his fanboys is that they think they're criticized and unpopular just because they like bleak and dark stories (let’s face it, they're only loud on the internet. If they were a majority, the DCEU would have been a success like the MCU).

The DCEU didn’t fail because it was bleak and didn’t have MCU quips and humor. It failed because Snyder failed to understand the DC heroes themselves. Take Batman, for example. Even he, who's known for being serious, is still fundamentally about a guy who dresses like a bat to make the world a better place. While the heroes can be serious and the stories can be dark, DC superheroes themselves shouldn’t be downers. The problem was that most characters were portrayed out of character, with the notable exception of those Snyder didn't directly handle, like Shazam.

 

[Giga_Nigga_28]

"DC is the world you aspire to and its heroes are gods trying to be humans."

Look at my gods dawg, we're all going to die.

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

Shit like on titans tower something minor is fucked up and Dick goes ill call my uncle and uses a signal watch and Superman bursts in like he's going to have to come kill someone because he gave him that for his 13th birthday and in 10 years he never touched it until now and its a misunderstanding, dick just needed to ask a question. And then beast boy is following dick around being like wait a minute your uncle is Superman? Batman is superman's brother? What the fuck dude? Little goofy shit.

"Dude, why didn't you call up Supes when we were getting juggled by Metallo the other week?"
"It was Christmas Eve."
"And?"
"He was at Santa's workshop, duh. Who else is gonna help Saint Nick get coal to Apokolips?"
"...You're kidding, right?"
"What, you think Darkseid is on the nice list?"

 

[Mayor Cody Travers]

Based on what Alexander said above on aestheticfags, I have some thoughts for the major DCU cities' looks and vibes:

Spoiler: This was more fun to ruminate on than I expected.

-Metropolis: a perfect cross of interwar art deco and modern classy-glassy buildings, some of them weird-looking to evoke the movie of the same name and let Superman fight in some cool spots. Think New York at its best.
-Gotham: neon noir crossed with crumbling gothic buildings. A more 'historical' feeling than Metropolis. Think Philadelphia's stronger ties to its past vis-a-vis New York.
-Gateway City: a cross of Greek and American architecture styles that are already fairly Neoclassical themselves. Lots of greenery, vines rambling down buildings when applicable. Think San Francisco but actually what it claims it is, combined with ancient Greece.
-Central/Keystone City: A major city that somehow evokes both classic 19th century Americana while having a blend of impressive fancy-smancy modern-art architecture, evoking both the past and the future. The best of St. Louis, basically.
-Coast City: Beach city and atomic era architecture thriving in its sunny clime but not run down at all. IE, Los Angeles if it was actually good.
-New Venice: Aquaman's burg he protects when he's in solo/non-JLA heroics. Caribbean-focused, touristy, blended with the canals Venice is known for. Pastel coloring everywhere and utterly all-in on the Miami Vice aesthetic... because it's based off of Miami.
-Star City: Meant to be Seattle, even casual comics nerds know this by now. But play up how it's in the Pacific Northwest rainforest - a city proudly having trees and greenery everywhere between buildings. Heck, this lets Green Arrow have even more reason to be based there: perfect spots to hide and snipe alike!
-Midway City: meant to be a Midwest analogue, specifically on the Great Lakes. Rust belt without the Rust Belt, one supposes, rowhouses ahoy interspersed with classic 20th century skyscrapers, but actually up-kept. Chicago analogue, much more major than its traditional non-usage in the comics and focus on the 20th century versus the above cities would imply.
-Opal City: Colonial-style architecture ahoy, since it's meant to be on the eastern shore of Maryland, an area I'm intimately familiar with.
-St. Roch: Another colonial city, but of French and Spanish influence via its analogue as New Orleans.
-Hub City: Who cares on specific architecture it's all abandoned and run down lol. But we all know it's meant to be an East St. Louis analogue with hints of Cairo, IL and Gary, IN - a river city that never got to even get to the Rust Belt days when the river trading of the 19th century finally dried up (pun not intended).
-Bludhaven: You thought Hub City was bad? Wilmington, DE to Gotham's Philly.
-National City: Supergirl's haunt should probably evoke vibes of a metro area in New England, NE I mention so it still gives vibes of having a park or town green even within the middle of the city, a closely-knit village that's somehow city-sized. Probably Hartford, perhaps New Haven to keep close to Metropolis's New York.

And of course:

-Smallville: The most stereotypical small-town Americana ever. And we love it for it.
-Amnesty Bay: Your typical fishing village, if New England style, since it's based in Maine if I remember right. A perfect spot to spend a night during a drive.
-Ivy Town: The ultimate college town. Not many tall buildings at all.

 

[Incecticyder]

View attachment 7131440
Look at my gods dawg, we're all going to die.

Guy is more of a classical god rather than a paragon. That is why most people argue that he does not fit. His best was when he was a Red Lantern and he was trying to make the Reds into actual heroes. Status quo was restored though...

 

[UnKillFill]

I feel bad for the people still trying to cope that Wonder Woman is part of the trinity in anything more than on paper.

I guess in a way she's the one of the original DEI hires. Just got the position cause she doesn't have a dick.

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

Guy is more of a classical god rather than a paragon. That is why most people argue that he does not fit. His best was when he was a Red Lantern and he was trying to make the Reds into actual heroes. Status quo was restored though...

Guy was prefect when Justice League America was almost a comedy series in the early 1990ies. Also back when Adam Hughes was still an up-and-coming artist who did comic interiors for JLA at the time.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Based on what Alexander said above on aestheticfags, I have some thoughts for the major DCU cities' looks and vibes:

While not a comics creation, you forgot Jump City, which has that cool Big Hero 6 styled San Fransokyo look. I honestly prefer the fictional location rather than the Titans being in New York as the aesthetic is cooler.

 

[Incecticyder]

Guy was prefect when Justice League America was almost a comedy series in the early 1990ies. Also back when Adam Hughes was still an up-and-coming artist who did comic interiors for JLA at the time.

He has overstayed his welcome though. The writers never seem to know what to do with him. Remember when they made him into a transforming alien?

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

He has overstayed his welcome though. The writers never seem to know what to do with him. Remember when they made him into a transforming alien?

That had to have happened after I got out of DC (and Marvel) from all the bullshit they're doing during the Comic Crash.