DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[el bandito loco]

I read that Millars' ending was very different and that published finish was all Grant Morrison.

I know like @Humble Architect said all of those series were various hodgepodges of ideas for Superman 2000 repurposed into various things, but Ive never looked into specifics. it makes total sense that ending is Morrison. Out of everything in Red Son that stands out as the most Morrison thing in there. You can if you look at all of those books sort of guess who did what on a conceptual level. All of their finished products are pretty whatever creator they are by virtue of them writing it but there are ideas in all of them that definitely are more in line with some of the others

 

[Humble Architect]

I know like @Humble Architect said all of those series were various hodgepodges of ideas for Superman 2000 repurposed into various things, but Ive never looked into specifics. it makes total sense that ending is Morrison. Out of everything in Red Son that stands out as the most Morrison thing in there. You can if you look at all of those books sort of guess who did what on a conceptual level. All of their finished products are pretty whatever creator they are by virtue of them writing it but there are ideas in all of them that definitely are more in line with some of the others

It was called Superman 2000 and it was super gay. They wanted to make him vegetarian, omniscient, no marriage, no Kents alive, villians are all reflections of him and he’d be wearing this abomination.

That symbol isn’t theirs, it definitely isn’t Waid’s. That is Alex Ross’ and Waid using it reeks of him continuing to pretend KC is his.

I hate them. They also seduced one editor and that was the motivation to kick Jurgens off.

The three detest each other now, Grant is a tranny, Waid is king of a sinking ship and Millar is up his own ass (he won though) and bizzarely Gunn Supes is wearing something close to that outfit.

Edit: Birthright should be burned.

 

[Prehistoric Jazz]

Grant is a tranny

Grant is a They/Them attention whore, nothing has really changed except nobody calls him out on his bullshit

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

Kingdom Come was good
seven million things referencing Kingdom Come sucks shit

 

[Humble Architect]

Grant is a They/Them attention whore, nothing has really changed except nobody calls him out on his bullshit

I find it so fitting that he looks like Luthor because like Lex, he has no understanding of Superman whatsoever.

Kingdom Come was good
seven million things referencing Kingdom Come sucks shit

I stan KC as my preferred ending to the DC universe and I agree.

I hate seeing that “S” on Gunn’s mockery, or that dyke-made “anime.” Though that fag shit gets credit for including Hank the Tank.

 

[Slighly Used Gum]

Batman out of all the characters really needs to be written by a right winger at some point.
We will never get a true Batman otherwise.

Didn't Chuck Dixon write like half of the Batman line in the '90s?

 

[Prehistoric Jazz]

Didn't Chuck Dixon write like half of the Batman line in the '90s?

Yeah, he created Bane and a few other characters of prominence, and he was pretty good at it for the most part. At least, I remember his stuff as being alright. He, like every other writer, was being directed by higherups to do certain things that sometimes made some of his stories drag a bit more than I think the original iterations might've.

 

[el bandito loco]

That symbol isn’t theirs, it definitely isn’t Waid’s. That is Alex Ross’ and Waid using it reeks of him continuing to pretend KC is his.

Kingdom Come was good
seven million things referencing Kingdom Come sucks shit

I stan KC as my preferred ending to the DC universe and I agree.

I hate seeing that “S” on Gunn’s mockery, or that dyke-made “anime.” Though that fag shit gets credit for including Hank the Tank.

I was just trying to explain this about Kingdom Come to a guy the other day, Mark Waid doesn't understand Kingdom Come at all because he didn't write it. Yes he "wrote" it, but he didn't. Alex Ross did. But he wasn't a writer and so Waid was the guy who helped him tweak it, and wrote dialogue and things like that.

This is why the two times Waid has done Kingdom Come sequels, they were total shit. It's not he doesnt get it anymore or is a different guy now, its he never got it in the first place.

The Kingdom was initially going to be another Waid/Ross collab but Mark tried to push his weight and take control of it and Ross looked at his ideas and went fuck this shit and told him do it yourself without me. He did, it sucked.

20 years later, like a year or two ago, Waid did Return to Kingdom Come. It sucked even more and understood it even less than his last attempt. His current World's Finest runs first few volumes are this story (only like 3 is Return to Kingdom Come but it's setup throughout) and it's absurdly awful.

This is why, the OTHER and nowhere near as talked about than those two Kingdom Come sequel, Thy Kingdom Come in JSA, which had Ross' input and hands directly on it, doesn't totally suck. It's not great but it's better than Waid's two shitty sequels. And Ross himself was even at the time he did TKC, like listen, this is not a true sequel because I'm not going to fuck it up, this is like an ancillary thing, take it or leave it. and it's pretty good.

Like last week, a guy ik was telling me he was excited to get Return to KC and I told him not to it fucking blows, and was complaining I had to import from the UK the all in one hardcover of Thy Kingdom Come which was a limited subscription magazine thing or some shit, because even though I dont love it either, its at least worth looking at and it's comical we got a deluxe edition of The Kingdom a couple years ago, which not only sucks but has no good art, and Thy Kingdom Come has a couple of special issues with Ross' art and is regulated to 3 out of print hardcovers/tpbs unless you buy the weird edition I have.

The novelization of Kingdom Come is pretty good, by Elliot Maggin, but really KC's maybe my favorite comic book of all time but every time they've milked it has cheapened it anymore. I also blame it for a lot of problems with modern Superman but thats not its fault, its the fault that its one of those 5 books that are all they reprint and all any normies (and apparently people who work on the character) get to see.

Oh yeah, edited for this. Putting the KC symbol in other shit fundamentally again misses the point, they also do this where they make KC Supes always have that symbol in flashbacks in later stuff and thats also missing the point, there is a literal narrative reason for the S being stylized in the way it is that only makes sense in that story and it's very telling to me that Gunn used it and other stuff does too.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

all any normies (and apparently people who work on the character) get to see.

yeah, and a lot of what makes KC work is the decades upon decades of everything it's drawing from and responding to
if you're not used to "Gosh, I'd better use my super-abacus-use-power to stop ChingChow from mathing Jimmy into the sun!" retarded shit it doesn't hit as hard when capes serious the fuck up like Watchmen and stuff

 

[strumpets exeunt]

there is a literal narrative reason for the S being stylized in the way it is that only makes sense in that story and it's very telling to me that Gunn used it and other stuff does too.

The only time outside of Kingdom Come I found the symbol to work was Brendan Routh playing Kingdom Come-lite Superman in the CW Crisis where you get the context of both the original KC storyline and the reality of Routh’s failed shot at being Superman (and a star in general) in film history.

 

[el bandito loco]

The only time outside of Kingdom Come I found the symbol to work was Brendan Routh playing Kingdom Come-lite Superman in the CW Crisis where you get the context of both the original KC storyline and the reality of Routh’s failed shot at being Superman (and a star in general) in film history.

It did work there, I didnt particularly like or dislike it there, but it fit somewhat and at least made sense.

Gunn and the cartoon using it with yellow says at least they understand what the black was for but using that more vague S at all shows they dont understand what the fuck it was about or why it's there instead of the traditional S when he comes back and I think they assume the black is the only part of it with meaning and the simple lightning bolt S is just there because Ross thought it looked cool and so do they and isn't a reflection on Superman himself and his place in that specific story.

 

[strumpets exeunt]

Really digging all this Kingdom Come talk. I was a teen when it came out, and the covers caught my eye when I was at a comic/hobby store trading in some old games. Up until that point, my only experience with the characters were the Reeve and Keaton movies and Batman: TAS (and, y'know, Superfriends and shit) - KC was the first thing to draw me into wanting to learn the greater lore. And, even though I've read thousands upon thousands of comics in the 30 years since, I have yet to find another one that really hits home with that Elseworlds tagline: "strange times and places... that can't, couldn't, or shouldn't exist."

Damn, I miss loving comics like that.

 

[Humble Architect]

The KC “S” is meant to show Clark’s internal state, it looks more alien than ever and even looks like a slash, which perfectly conveys he’s escaped into his alien side and is still very heartbroken. It’s black to convey mourning both for his losses and the Kansas incident, it lacks any yellow to show how much he’s done with being the “friendly man of the people.”

He’s gonna save the day, whether you like it or not. It’s why he’s the best “fallen Superman” he’s not evil, he just failed and the world, like it is when humans fail, does not care about your pain.

As @el bandito loco said, “Thy Kingdom Come” is good dlc (especially the Ross one-shot that saw a re-release last year with McFarlane’s figs) if you’re interested in KC Clark’s character. His meeting with regular Supes and later, regular Lois is one of the most heartbreaking things I’ve ever read in comics.

The only time outside of Kingdom Come I found the symbol to work was Brendan Routh playing Kingdom Come-lite Superman in the CW Crisis where you get the context of both the original KC storyline and the reality of Routh’s failed shot at being Superman (and a star in general) in film history.

He rocked it. Like I hate CW shit entirely, but Routh, despite not being the brick shithouse KC Supes is, conveyed the same energy as the comic. Strength in failure.

Really digging all this Kingdom Come talk. I was a teen when it came out, and the covers caught my eye when I was at a comic/hobby store trading in some old games. Up until that point, my only experience with the characters were the Reeve and Keaton movies and Batman: TAS (and, y'know, Superfriends and shit) - KC was the first thing to draw me into wanting to learn the greater lore. And, even though I've read thousands upon thousands of comics in the 30 years since, I have yet to find one that really hits home with that Elseworlds tagline: "strange times and places... that can't, couldn't, or shouldn't exist."

Damn, I miss loving comics like that.

KC is so good because it’s an Elseworld, that was quietly intended to be Earth-2 restored by Waid, whereas Ross seems more on the “this could be the future,” camp. So it feels plausible as the future of most versions of the DC universe.

Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, Post-Crisis, they all could lead to Kingdom Come because of how reverent it is to the whole thing, even the 90s stuff Waid and Ross didn’t like, Magog was a great character and Superman was a massive douche to him after the incident. It would’ve been so easy to punch down on the “90s BAD!” argument but with Magog, they make a point of saying it wasn’t all bad.

 

[Mystery Spy]

Honestly I think a female hero film could work, even one made more for women, but this ain't it. They need an angle to keep women invested and drunken space adventure doesn't seem like a good enough angle

Agreed 100%. What women want is not hard to figure out. The trouble is that Gunn’s Supergirl is, going by the leaks, yet another male fantasy in a skirt. That has never appealed to women and it never will.

This is something even Fandom Menace YouTubers get wrong. Women aren’t actually against their escapism having powerful female characters that kick ass. Sailor Moon, anyone?

What they despise is when the character they are supposed to identify with is ugly, butch, or worse, manly. They want the power fantasy so long as they can be feminine, and girly about it too. The Supergirl actress isn’t exactly a stunner to be perfectly honest, and if the leaks are true, and she will behave like a drunk guy in a skirt, this will not appeal to women.

DC doesn't lack female characters that fit the bill by being feminine and powerful. Black Canary, Zatanna, and Wonder Woman are a few examples. Of course WB being WB they keep wasting them.

 

[el bandito loco]

What they despise is when the character they are supposed to identify with is ugly, butch, or worse, manly. They want the power fantasy so long as they can be feminine, and girly about it too.

I always complain about this in movies and video games especially, maybe it's because I spend my time around actual women and these people in hollywood are out of touch and game developers are around men in drag who call themselves women but I have no idea why this shit is so difficult for them to figure out.

But i hear this from girls when we talk about movies and stuff, but there's been like a death of i guess like "girly-girl" stuff. From what I gather this is like sailor moon, Lisa Frank, puppies, dolphins and unicorns and the color pink and shit.

Which checks out, every girl in a movie "for women" is either a manly dyke or a ugly sarcastic Aubrey Plaza type who doesn't give a fuck about anything and is there for women to identify with and go wow im miserable too. I feel like it'd be pretty easy to make the cutesy girl power bad ass movie. I mean cartoons targeted at them ran on that energy for like 30 years.

They also dont like looking at ugly women lol lesbians dont even like other dyke-y broads thats why one of them is usually the type of girly girl im talking about here. Idk it's weird to say but honestly I think something more in line with the Helen Slater Supergirl from the 80s with better writing that randomly has Man of Steel type fight scenes when shit gets real would be the sleeper hit of the decade.

And in context it would work too because she's got Superman powers fighting other space aliens and shit so it wouldn't be like why can this girl fight like this and overpower giant dudes and monsters and monster dudes. I feel like the cutesy supergirl movie with completely ape shit fight scenes is actually sort of the type of shit little girls would go nuts over. It's not like women dont like cool action shit, not to totally generalize but your average chick likes shit like cute animal movies, those goofy romance movies, and violent action movies. throwing them together to make a supergirl movie I could probably do in my sleep even if I wasn't like an expert on the character and lore.

The first wonder woman I think largely succeeded because it sort of was what im talking about. A better example is probably the Powerpuff Girls movie but I haven't seen it in 20 years so I dont remember that well but I remember it having some crazy ass fights for that kind of thing. Idk I think beyond brand recognition Barbie was sort of as big of a hit as it was bc it was the first girl movie with that girl aesthetic and a hot lead in like 15 years.

 

[God of Nothing]

we talking about wondy?

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Agreed 100%. What women want is not hard to figure out. The trouble is that Gunn’s Supergirl is, going by the leaks, yet another male fantasy in a skirt. That has never appealed to women and it never will.

This is something even Fandom Menace YouTubers get wrong. Women aren’t actually against their escapism having powerful female characters that kick ass. Sailor Moon, anyone?

What they despise is when the character they are supposed to identify with is ugly, butch, or worse, manly. They want the power fantasy so long as they can be feminine, and girly about it too. The Supergirl actress isn’t exactly a stunner to be perfectly honest, and if the leaks are true, and she will behave like a drunk guy in a skirt, this will not appeal to women.

DC doesn't lack female characters that fit the bill by being feminine and powerful. Black Canary, Zatanna, and Wonder Woman are a few examples. Of course WB being WB they keep wasting them.

Pretty much. Superheroes are a male genre, but have the flexibility to genre shift and become more female oriented if work is put in. The issue is, no one in Hollywood wants to, nor likely can they, given either a lack of care or writing capabilities. It is frustrating with DC given they already had a strong track record of appealing to the demographic, spanning all the way back to West's Batman, and especially the 90s-early 10s cartoons.

Said it in the original post, but they just need a unique hook, a genre variation or implementation to rope women in. Batman works because you have themes such as mental health and family, genres injections with horror and noir, all under a Tim Burton stylized gothic aesthetic. The Teen heroes also work as you get tales of a group of young adults overcoming adversity and their own internal struggles, alongside many tropes like "the big dance" and relationship drama. The CW, for all its faults, knew group dynamics and relationship drama sold, from Smallville to the Arrowverse, they maintained decent female viewership.

So far, the trauma aspect is the only thing I can see people cling to with Supergirl besides Lobo thirsting, and even that seems unlikely. Her film needs more of a cast, a group dynamic she slots into. She should have gotten another female hero or two, they could have taken a cue from KPOP Demon Hunters which has gained crazy popularity as a female oriented action flick. Speaking of which...

Nobody in Hollywood has the balls or the insanity to make the Music Meister the primary villain of a movie.

It would the most glorious disaster in the history of cape movies and I would pre-order it in 4K HDR before it even hit the cinemas, but it ain't going to happen.

Also, coming back to this - they could totally make it work. After KPDH the musical girls action film isn't a stretch anymore. DC has the characters to pull it off if they actually tried.

 

[Overly Serious]

Also, coming back to this - they could totally make it work. After KPDH the musical girls action film isn't a stretch anymore. DC has the characters to pull it off if they actually tried.

Pop-tastic Supergirl number suddenly shifts with the introduction of a heavy metal riff... all dancers freeze and turn, a huge and manly figure fills the doorway.

"My name is Loboooooo, and I'm a bounty hunteeeer____"
(bar patrons) "His name is Lobo, And he's the last of his kind!"
"My name is Lobooooo! And I always deliveeeeeer____"
(Supergirl) "And if there were one less... Well, I wouldn't mind!"

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Pop-tastic Supergirl number suddenly shifts with the introduction of a heavy metal riff... all dancers freeze and turn, a huge and manly figure fills the doorway.

"My name is Loboooooo, and I'm a bounty hunteeeer____"
(bar patrons) "His name is Lobo, And he's the last of his kind!"
"My name is Lobooooo! And I always deliveeeeeer____"
(Supergirl) "And if there were one less... Well, I wouldn't mind!"

"L for lacerate"
"O is for Obliterate"
"A B for this blind date"
"O for...eh.. I guess I can use Obliterate again."

 

[Humble Architect]

The mutt Supergirl movie will get some women in the theatres because of the gay ohio islander. Because they still think of Khal Drogo.

I’m hoping for failure, as I do with everything Gunn touches. Kara is just an unnecessary character and there’s a reason the best Superman era did not have her. “Last Son” or go home.