DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[Fatsuit Shinji]

Clark had a purpose to show the people of Earth the light. Kara’s purpose was to take care of him, and even then, her entire purpose was stripped away from her due to circumstances out of her control

Naoko Takeuchi did found an answer to this with her Code Name: Sailor V* manga. Have Kara be the protector of Clark and the Kents' so they can have the normal life while he is growing up to be the man he will become. If potential enemies only know a Kryptonian landed on Earth but have no other information like how many, age and gender.

*First two volumes of the manga were done before starting Sailor Moon and the last volume done after Sailor Moon had ended.

 

[Humble Architect]

Naoko Takeuchi did found an answer to this with her Code Name: Sailor V* manga. Have Kara be the protector of Clark and the Kents' so they can have the normal life while he is growing up to be the man he will become. If potential enemies only know a Kryptonian landed on Earth but have no other information like how many, age and gender.

*First two volumes of the manga were done before starting Sailor Moon and the last volume done after Sailor Moon had ended.

One of the hundreds of ideas for the aborted 90s Superman movie was that he did have a protector, something that would be whatever he needed and was in the pod with him, the Eradicator, taking the form of an innocuous Teddy Bear. I like that, not only because I’m the biggest Eradicator fan, but I dig the idea of it fully embodying the Terminator homage him and Henshaw had going on. Though the version for the movie was more like Venom.

So if Kryptonians other than Clark must exist, I like the idea of Jor-El taking this hyper violent military AI and shoving that thing in Clark’s pod as a protector for his son and his niece. I think one of the animated movies had it as the onboard AI.

So in this scenario, the Kents were not only good enough to be deemed worthy by Clark’s designated protector but the farm had a silent guardian, which neatly explains him growing up in the insane DC universe and having a normal childhood, high likelihood anything remotely threatening was being eradicated. Pa Kent thinking the worst because he’s seen a ghost-like man on the farm would be hilarious.

Enemies know a Kryptonian landed, they wouldn’t expect a military AI to be watching over the child.

The Last Son, the Last Daughter and the Guardian. A trio to match Zod’s.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

I’m hoping for failure, as I do with everything Gunn touches. Kara is just an unnecessary character and there’s a reason the best Superman era did not have her.

What I don't get is why they put Supergirl at the same level as the Trinity.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

What I don't get is why they put Supergirl at the same level as the Trinity.

They needed a replacement for Harley Quinn since they absolutely destroyed that character. The quirky girl-failure that would resonate with women because, and lets be honest, Wonder Woman really doesn't do it for most.

Best guess as for why Supergirl specifically is just that they are pushing Superman hard as the main hero, so makes more sense that it is her over Batgirl or a Titan. Supergirl, more so Power Girl, also has the large cosplay fandom similar to Harley Quinn, so they are probably hoping to strike lightning in a bottle a second time.

I don’t disagree. She is hella iconic. She is historically important and she is a female super hero that isn’t just a gender swap. Wonder Woman is comic book royalty.

But is she relevant, and with enough recent good material, fans and appeal to match the big boys? Not even close.

That’s what I mean when I say people like the idea of her not WW herself. If people truly liked her , I should be hearing normies talk about favorite storylines, and portrayals, not merely “she is a girl power icon” . Granted she is not devoid of that, there’s been some good storylines. She is popular. Just not on the level to be a “top 3”.

we talking about wondy?
View attachment 8497872

Wonder Woman is only ever mentioned as needing to be part of the superhero Mt. Rushmore because of the vague idea that she opened up the doorway for female heroes. Even going by this claim, I honestly question the validity as how many female centered superhero IPs have either DC or Marvel created since her that have had large success? Take out all the women based on male heroes and team fodder and I honestly can't really name any. Black Widow, Black Canary maybe? Even Zatanna and Captain Marvel are technically based on male characters, even if they largely surpassed them.

Most successful female supers are traditionally outside the comics medium - see Miraculous. Comic fans will hate the truth, but The PowerPuff Girls have left more of an impact and far greater accomplished the goal of Wonder Woman in mainstreaming female heroes. Helps their IP has actual consistency/identity, a memorable rogues gallery, and genuine female appeal that would make PPG influential even outside of the superhero genre.

PPG more or less opened the floodgate to a ton of female centered action heroes/trios. Even DC would be influenced by them for the Super Best Friends/DCSHG brands. Past that you could probably link Totally Spies, Panty & Stocking, My Life as a Teenage Robot, hell even K-pop Demon Hunters has a very similar trio dynamic. Between PPG and Sailor Moon, the influence of them has far outweighed Wonder Woman in terms of relevance on the topic.

Iron Man, Batman, Wolverine, Spider-Man, and Superman have far more cultural relevance and fans in the modern day.

A large issue with the Mt. Rushmore topic is that it exclusively looks at DC & Marvel, forgetting all other heroes, especially those outside of comics. Realistically speaking, past the big three (Superman, Spider-Man, Batman) the 4th head should be the TMNT. That brand defined indie comics, had one of the largest "Manias," has grossed more than any individual superhero brand beyond Batman and Spider-Man, and has one of the largest influences on pop-culture even outside their genre bubble.

Hell, if you want to get real crazy, for only being around a fraction of their time, Ben 10 is getting extremely close to Superman and X-Men in grossing. It is less than a billion off - 7.85 to 8.2 and 8.35 respectively.

 

[Idiotron]

I will say this way more bluntly:

Nobody gives a fuck about Wonder Woman.
They keep bringing her back because way back in ancient 1970's land, she had one of the very few successful capeshit TV shows and that's what the old people who run Hollywood remember.
If another character had that show, that would be the one they kept bringing back.

As a character, she's dull.
She's Superman without the relatability of being raised as a human.
She's Thor without the charm and humor.
She has absolutely zero flaws which is the base for character development and having a personality in general.

She doesn't even have a weakness, she's indestructible until the writer decides to hurt her, that's how we get her bleeding from a bullet in the 2017 movie in act 1, then in act 3 she gets hit with 58 grenades to the face and it does zero damage.

Also, she doesn't appeal to women.
A perfect morally consistent woman who always takes accountability for her actions.... yeah, that's not for girls.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Nobody gives a fuck about Wonder Woman.
They keep bringing her back because way back in ancient 1970's land, she had one of the very few successful capeshit TV shows and that's what the old people who run Hollywood remember.
If another character had that show, that would be the one they kept bringing back.

She's a feminist symbol of the 40s and brought back due to that reason. The 70s show is important, but WW's claim to fame, which is also her Achilles heel, is her ties to the feminist movement as an icon. Everything about her and everything wrong with her is tied into her role as a feminist figurehead.

As a character, she's dull.
She's Superman without the relatability of being raised as a human.
She's Thor without the charm and humor.
She has absolutely zero flaws which is the base for character development and having a personality in general.

She doesn't even have a weakness, she's indestructible until the writer decides to hurt her, that's how we get her bleeding from a bullet in the 2017 movie in act 1, then in act 3 she gets hit with 58 grenades to the face and it does zero damage.

Also, she doesn't appeal to women.
A perfect morally consistent woman who always takes accountability for her actions.... yeah, that's not for girls.

This is all due to the feminist icon status she needs to uphold. Writers and DC corporate get cold feet doing anything with her due to potential backlash.

I have a feeling her inconsistency is largely due to the movement itself shifting over-time (Same reason X-Men went to shit). Steve becomes inconsequential depending on time period and how much feminism pushes her to be strong and independent or a lesbo that decade. The shifting views on motherhood make giving her a parental relationship impossible as you could be saying a women's only role is childrearing. Her personality also shifts as stern serious women is obviously very feminist, very girl boss.

In terms of big stories, WW was "jokingly" pitched to have a Death of Superman/Knightfall plotline that got scrapped due to DC not finding it appropriate for their feminist figure. The original idea was rape, which granted is a bit grotesque, but it was the perfect fall/rise narrative for a female hero - one that is highly specific to her main attribute of being a woman to give a very different fall narrative to the boys. Of course this never happened and now people just shit on Millar for even suggesting it as it was completely insensitive. Controversial, but the rape plotline would have surpassed damn near every 90s plotline on concept alone, giving Wondy something actually worthwhile.

 

[Overly Serious]

I will say this way more bluntly:

Nobody gives a fuck about Wonder Woman.
They keep bringing her back because way back in ancient 1970's land, she had one of the very few successful capeshit TV shows and that's what the old people who run Hollywood remember.
If another character had that show, that would be the one they kept bringing back.

As a character, she's dull.
She's Superman without the relatability of being raised as a human.
She's Thor without the charm and humor.
She has absolutely zero flaws which is the base for character development and having a personality in general.

She doesn't even have a weakness, she's indestructible until the writer decides to hurt her, that's how we get her bleeding from a bullet in the 2017 movie in act 1, then in act 3 she gets hit with 58 grenades to the face and it does zero damage.

Also, she doesn't appeal to women.
A perfect morally consistent woman who always takes accountability for her actions.... yeah, that's not for girls.

The way I would do Wonder Woman is to play into the warrior aspect. Supposedly people do but I don't feel it. She should conflict with Superman who is a good guy and forgiving guy, whilst she wields a fucking sword and is willing to kill because she's trained for war. Now that would give you a "trinity". They're all meaningfully different archetypes. It's for this reason that I think it absurd when writers shipped Wonder Woman and Superman. They're just very different people - or should be.

 

[Humble Architect]

Gotta love the mythic 90s stories.

Superman: Faces a mythic foe only he can fight and dies to kill it, then rises from the dead and takes his throne back from the four pretenders.

Batman: Is finally beaten, the immovable mover is out-thought and then overwhelmed. He’s gotta rebuild and become the Batman again, to retake his burden.

Wonder Woman: Gets glazed like a danish.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

The way I would do Wonder Woman is to play into the warrior aspect. Supposedly people do but I don't feel it. She should conflict with Superman who is a good guy and forgiving guy, whilst she wields a fucking sword and is willing to kill because she's trained for war. Now that would give you a "trinity". They're all meaningfully different archetypes. It's for this reason that I think it absurd when writers shipped Wonder Woman and Superman. They're just very different people - or should be.

Personally, I always saw Wonder Woman as being centered around compassion and being an act now, handle consequences later type of character. She is a sheltered princess prone to emotional decision making. She comes into conflict with Clark and Bruce because they more operate on the world as is than the idealized "Disney morality" world Diana operates in.

Gunn Superman would arguably be a better Diana than Clark. Him intervening in a war without any thought given to the long-term consequences is the shit Diana does. Diana is the one who would grab a world leader and threaten them to end conflicts, while Superman would be the one to swoop down and argue with her that she just started WW3 pulling a stunt like that.

A common theme of Wondy is that she hates lies and secrets. She sees them as acts of evil and the cowardly. In her mind, she cannot comprehend a valid reason why someone would do something untrustworthy, putting her at odds with Bruce and even Steve Trevor. Steve is a spy for the U.S., the WW movie does a good job using him to break her worldview of spies being inherently evil as Steve shows her how complicated the world is and why her morality doesn't work off Themyscira. She comes into conflict with Bruce often due to his neutralizer plans, something all the males in the JL understand and are fine with, but she lights up on out of principle that he is hiding things.
One thing I do like is how the Trinity handles trust as you can see them agree/disagree with each other depending on circumstance. Diana and Clark are both initial trustors, while Bruce is earned. If trust is broken, Diana and Bruce typically share a seat of "your done" while Clark still tries to reach out. This is best seen with Hawkgirl in JL as her spy arc begins with Clark and Diana liking her, Bruce coming around, and by the end ends with only Clark seemingly voting to let her back in the league.

If I was to define the Trinity, I would say Superman is the balanced one keeping his two autistic friends in check. Batman had too real of a childhood, leading him down an ever darker path of loneliness and non-trusting anything, while Diana was sheltered as fuck. For being an alien, Clark is the only normal one of the group, the one who balances reality with idealism as to not become the two extremes his friends are.

 

[Mystery Spy]

As a character, she's dull.
She's Superman without the relatability of being raised as a human.
She's Thor without the charm and humor.
She has absolutely zero flaws which is the base for character development and having a personality in general.

She's a feminist symbol of the 40s and brought back due to that reason. The 70s show is important, but WW's claim to fame, which is also her Achilles heel, is her ties to the feminist movement as an icon. Everything about her and everything wrong with her is tied into her role as a feminist figurehead.

Spot on.

I would also add: What's even Wonder Woman's personality? Besides being angry and lecturing others about feminism. I mean yeah, there's some room for interpretation, but overall Batman is supposed to be a serious guy (even in Silver Age goofy stories he is a straight man). Clark is mild-mannered, and as Superman confident or even inspiring.

I know some redditor would "ackshually" me with exceptions. But 90% of the time I see her adapted, her role is just to be Angry. That's her character. Maybe even a bit bitchy or unlikeable.

Young Justice? Her most memorable scene is being owned by Batman.

DCAU? People love this version because they ship her with Batman. But what else did she have? She was just angry and of course had the mandatory feminist scene. There's a scene where WW complains about men, saying "they couldn't be possible that essential to your life", and Hawkgirl disagrees. Guess who ended up more likable and popular in that show?

The New Frontier movie? Again, just there to be bitchy.

Injustice? People ended up despising her despite it being an alternate universe.

There's been some comic scans floating around trying to fix the bitchy image—make her caring about a kid with cancer or whatever, basically shoehorning a "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" story on her. Or another comic that's basically her bitching that she is an immortal uber powerful goddess. Cue the world's smallest violin. Kids' cartoons are trying hard to make her a type of chipper tomboy with mixed success (Justice League Action / DC Super Hero Girls).

Probably the most successful attempt to give her an identity was by Gal Gadot. At the very least normies love that version. But the DCEU is dead, and she only had one good movie.

 

[Anon88]

As a Titan fan I always found Donna Troy to be more interesting than Diana. Donna just feels a lot more human to me, making mistake and forming relationships with people while Diana is just angry and boring. I don’t know how well it would really work but I wouldn’t mind if Donna overtook WW as the main Amazon character.

 

[Humble Architect]

It’s telling that Lois utterly detests Wonder Woman. She doesn’t like Batman either (SUFFAH BRUCE TIMM) but that woman has special hate in her heart for Diana and it’s one of the most realistic depictions of women I’ve ever seen in comics.

“Who’s Batman?”

“Someone you’re not meeting until you’re a teenager.”

“Who’s Wonder Woman?”

“Someone you’re not meeting until you’re an adult.”
-Lois and Christopher, already showing the foundations of Supermom.

What? You’re telling me the human wife of a demigod hates the warrior princess supermodel he’s hanging out with every now and then?

Shocking.

 

[el bandito loco]

What? You’re telling me the human wife of a demigod hates the warrior princess supermodel he’s hanging out with every now and then?

there's this absurd story in the Superman Y2K era i think about and laugh about sometimes, where Diana comes to Clark and tells him she needs his help to fight a war in another dimension. Lois is pissed off about it but Clark of course goes. anyways in the regular world its like a couple days or maybe even hours or something, but in wherever the fuck Superman and Wonder Woman are its like 500 or 5,000 years or some shit. Essentially they kill like millions of demons or monsters or whatever the armies they are fighting, and the entire time, they both desperately just want to fuck each other but they don't because Lois is at home waiting for Clark.

It's really retarded for a bunch of reasons but mostly it's just funny to me whoever wrote it (due to the era, I assume its either Loeb or Kelly) felt it was necessary to create such an absurd plot to show Superman is faithful to Lois.

I remember reading this in grade school and thinking even as a kid how the only reason this is happening is for the writer to show Superman loves his wife and it was some filler bullshit. This isnt a unique phenomena either there are multiple stories where something along these lines is the plot over the history of the characters. If you wanted to make the point Superman and WW shouldn't be together, wouldn't it make more sense to do a story where this same plot happens but they have like 0 sexual tension or thoughts and just act like siblings or something spending all that time together? Not sitting around both with thought bubbles going "damn i wish we were fucking"

 

[strumpets exeunt]

there's this absurd story in the Superman Y2K era i think about and laugh about sometimes, where Diana comes to Clark and tells him she needs his help to fight a war in another dimension. Lois is pissed off about it but Clark of course goes. anyways in the regular world its like a couple days or maybe even hours or something, but in wherever the fuck Superman and Wonder Woman are its like 500 or 5,000 years or some shit. Essentially they kill like millions of demons or monsters or whatever the armies they are fighting, and the entire time, they both desperately just want to fuck each other but they don't because Lois is at home waiting for Clark.

Action Comics #761. My mind immediately went there when the "Lois hates Wonder Woman" talk started for this series of panels that’s somehow burned into my brain forever:

 

[Overly Serious]

The thing is Wonder Woman is almost inherently a snob. Not her fault but she's raised to think women are superior and men are flawed beings. That leaves only two options. Either the writer agrees with her or he doesn't. If he does, the work is going to be obnoxious. If he doesn't, you're writing a story about her learning the error of her ways. If you write long enough then you get past that but (a) you're left with a character that is no longer distinctively Wonder Woman and (b) people seldom write an ongoing long enough for that.

I think that is essentially the biggest problem. Her defining character trait is something that you need to discard. She has one primary story - a woman from a female paradise arrives in the modern mixed world. Once it's told, nobody knows what to do with her. That's why I would give her an identity to lean into as the JL's soldier / warrior. She should be a leader when it comes to actual battle.

Batman is a strategist and intel guy. Superman is a diplomat and leader. Diana is a general.

(I am fully aware that Diana is cast as a diplomat. I can only imagine she sucks at it royally. "Royally" pun not intended but on point.)

 

[Battlefield2142EU]

This outcome was even more disappointing than I had anticipated. The DC knockout appearance was unremarkable from the outset. Overall, the DC knockout segment failed to meet expectations. Additionally, the omission of complete fight sequences was notable. The confrontation between Joker and Annabelle was particularly disappointing, while the highlight of the event was the match between Lex Luthor and Samantha Strong.

 

[el bandito loco]

Action Comics #761. My mind immediately went there when the "Lois hates Wonder Woman" talk started for this series of panels that’s somehow burned into my brain forever:

View attachment 8515829

Yeah that's definitely it. I love that era and Kelly's run in general but they cant all be great. I think a lot of people like that particular story but I've always thought it was dumb. Granted I'm not the guy for something like that because if it bothers them so much id just have them fuck and have Wonder Woman tell Clark what happens on earth 69 or wherever the hell they are, stays there. But again, I wouldn't have them sitting there thinking about fucking the whole time if I wrote it. Lois would probably be the same, but the cutaways to Diana and Clark they wouldnt even be thinking like that, they'd just be thinking what a great ally in a fight each other is.

I kinda like pissed off jealous Lois, it makes me laugh when she's written like that. Around the same time brainiac turns this girl into a supergirl who thinks she's Clark's daughter from the future and Lois accuses Clark of hiding a teenage daughter from her, and asks him if it was him and Diana and says something like "I assumed amazons didnt like men" it's so absurd the idea that superman would just casually have a kid she doesn't know about that's half his age. I know lois is a tough reporter and that type of thing is out of character somewhat but I like her occasionally having random, purely emotional and absolutely irrational responses. It's believable.

I'd assume if they were real Lois probably would hate Wonder Woman, she'd be probably be cordial and extra nice to her all the time but be going "that fuckin' bitch" under her breath. Which I imagine most normal women would probably be like. It's kind of humorous the idea Diana really likes Lois and is friendly and wants to be her friend but Lois doesnt even want her around lol

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

I'll admit I'm no Superman-ologist, but I got the impression that the idea is that Clark doesn't really _like_ other metahumans. He's got the fortress of solitude, not the assembly hall, he hangs out with the human who maxed out his stats as his main rival/pal, his Metropolis friends are mostly humans
he doesn't necessarily hate the other capes but he wants to be a human with human friends, so he wasn't really clocking WW as a romantic interest

 

[el bandito loco]

I'll admit I'm no Superman-ologist, but I got the impression that the idea is that Clark doesn't really _like_ other metahumans. He's got the fortress of solitude, not the assembly hall, he hangs out with the human who maxed out his stats as his main rival/pal, his Metropolis friends are mostly humans
he doesn't necessarily hate the other capes but he wants to be a human with human friends, so he wasn't really clocking WW as a romantic interest

It's because despite being the most powerful being on earth, he's one of the most normal guys out of all of the other beings with powers. Out of all of the other superpowered beings barring someone like Martian Manhunter that he has specifics in common with and a serious close friendship, hed probably rather hang out with a dude like Animal Man outside of work over Aquaman, because Buddy Baker when he's not superheroing is just a suburban dad with a wife and kids, and Arthur is a king of a magic underwater kingdom. It's why his best pal is Jimmy fuckin Olsen, just some guy.

this has been true for different reasons throughout the years, modern superman (post crisis/n52/returned post crisis) because Clark Kent for all intents and purposes was and is a normal dude who happens to be an alien and Superman, and Pre Crisis, because Clark as an identity is a creation of Superman whom he chooses to be and make as human as possible because he loves humans so much, and wants to surround himself with them because he sees them as inspirational for doing what they do without the privilege he has.

that said I dont think hed always like prioritize friendships with normal people over powered, it of course would depend on personality compatibility. I dont know if ive ever mentioned this to you guys, but its a running thing that ive been telling people my whole life that out of all of the JLA, there is no way Superman likes Green Arrow. He's superman so hed never say it, but I guarantee if they existed Batman would have been told in confidence by Clark that he thinks Ollie is the biggest faggot on Earth.

Don't get me wrong, he'd respect him as a hero and his peer, but I think he'd find him absolutely insufferable and there probably would be think pieces written by Clark Kent calling out performative socialist billionaires that dont mention names.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

I'll admit I'm no Superman-ologist, but I got the impression that the idea is that Clark doesn't really _like_ other metahumans. He's got the fortress of solitude, not the assembly hall, he hangs out with the human who maxed out his stats as his main rival/pal, his Metropolis friends are mostly humans
he doesn't necessarily hate the other capes but he wants to be a human with human friends, so he wasn't really clocking WW as a romantic interest

He likes Martian Manhunter as they have an alien kinship, but yes, he mainly sticks to humans. Even then, I would say only a small circle as someone like Green Arrow annoys the hell out of him. It is mainly the Metropolis circle and Batfamily he is strongly connected with.

I think it should be said though that he is pretty open and fatherly towards younger heroes regardless of metahuman status. Shazam is a big one that he will go out of his way to be a contact towards. Then we have the DCAMU where one of his best relationships was him opening up to Raven.