Debate Android Raptor about abortion again

[AgendaPoster]

It's OK to be agnostic, but don't be antagonistic. What do you have to gain from kicking down Otoya-san's sandcastle?

He irritates me with his pomo lunacy.
I understand people need these stories but for God's sake, keep it under wraps and to yourself.

 

[Stan]

He irritates me with his pomo lunacy.
I understand people need these stories but for God's sake, keep it under wraps and to yourself.

I agree he sounds like one of those loony doomsday-cult Koreans, but it's reasonable to invoke one's religious beliefs in opposition to abortion.

 

[AgendaPoster]

but it's reasonable to invoke one's religious beliefs in opposition to abortion

I don't think so.
Opposition to abortion should be based on how much of a life the fetus is, not religious beliefs.
While it's a clump of cells without any developed organs, it's obviously not alive.
Once it develops a nervous system, sensitivity to sensory stimulation, a circulatory system etc., things become much more complicated.
Once all organs are developed and the fetus could survive inside an incubator, outside of the womb, abortion should be 99.9% forbidden, unless some emergency demands saving the mother's life or something similar, or the fetus has severe malformations incompatible with life.
Supernatural, belief-based opposition makes people unreasonable.
We have so many issues on this planet cause people refuse to be reasonable and compromise when needed, and are dogmatic about all sorts of idiotic things.

 

[Stan]

I don't think so.
Opposition to abortion should be based on how much of a life the fetus is, not religious beliefs.
While it's a clump of cells without any developed organs, it's obviously not alive.
Once it develops a nervous system, sensitivity to sensory stimulation, a circulatory system etc., things become much more complicated.
Once all organs are developed and the fetus could survive inside an incubator, outside of the womb, abortion should be 99.9% forbidden, unless some emergency demands saving the mother's life or something similar, or the fetus has severe malformations incompatible with life.
Supernatural, belief-based opposition makes people unreasonable.
We have so many issues on this planet cause people refuse to be reasonable and compromise when needed, and are dogmatic about all sorts of idiotic things.

I agree wholeheartedly with this interpretation.
So what are talking, a 12-week cutoff? 16?

 

[AgendaPoster]

I agree wholeheartedly with this interpretation.
So what are talking, a 12-week cutoff? 16?

I don't wanna give exact thresholds.
I think it should be a public debate, mostly between medics. Transparent, fact-based, with compassion for both the potential for a future human life and the mother that has to carry it and the difficulties that brings.

 

[Harbinger of Kali Yuga]

I agree wholeheartedly with this interpretation.
So what are talking, a 12-week cutoff? 16?

It depends on the race of the baby.

 

[gang weeder]

Opposition to abortion should be based on how much of a life the fetus is, not religious beliefs.

This is a huge conflation that is constantly made on the topic of abortion, to the point that most pro-abortion are incapable of discussing the issue at all without trying to make it about religion somehow.

While opposition to abortion certainly correlates with religiosity, every single religious person that opposes abortion opposes it because they because that the child is, y'know, a child. You will not find one single person who says "yea an unborn child actually isn't a person but abortion is still bad just because God said so."

I don't wanna give exact thresholds.
I think it should be a public debate, mostly between medics. Transparent, fact-based, with compassion for both the potential for a future human life and the mother that has to carry it and the difficulties that brings.

You do realize there is no such thing as a "fact-based" way to determine who counts as a person or not, right? If we accept the premise that an individual member of the species homo sapiens can somehow fail to count as a person, that is. At that point, there is no limiting principle, and you could just as easily claim that niggers aren't people, as was believed in the past. It's pure feels over reals from there.

 

[AgendaPoster]

person

I never mentioned person, just "life".

 

[gang weeder]

I never mentioned person, just "life".

What a piss poor attempt at a cop out.

You said you refused to try and give a threshold for when a baby counts as a person post-conception, stating that it should be left up to "fact-based public debate." Again: Once you accept the premise that personhood does not begin at conception, there are zero facts you can cite to prove to anyone when it ackchyually does. Whether a baby counts as a person or not at 12 weeks, 16, or any other number is a pure arbitrary judgment. Do you know the difference between a fact and a value judgment?

 

[Android raptor]

Embryos aren't people

 

[Bargain Bin Laden]

Embryos aren't people

Neither are insects.

 

[Colress]

jesus christ, i think maybe two people in this thread aren't retarded

life isn't sacred, people are stupid, and i honestly wish i had popcorn for this turd hurricane called a "debate"

never fucking change kf

 

[Fever Dreaming]

Abort all rape, drug, and mixed race babies.

 

[Android raptor]

Neither are insects.

They're closer to being people than embryos are

 

[AgendaPoster]

Once you accept the premise that personhood does not begin at conception, there are zero facts you can cite to prove to anyone when it ackchyually does. Whether a baby counts as a person or not at 12 weeks, 16, or any other number is a pure arbitrary judgment. Do you know the difference between a fact and a value judgment?

Stop being retarded.
It is NOT arbitrary at all to make a judgement based on the characteristics of a fetus.
At the germinal stage, there is only a rapidly differentiating clump of cells. There are NO organs. There is no capacity to feel, no ability to survive outside the womb, hell, it's not yet life. It's literally a comfy tumor-like growth on the uterus.
It takes to about 9 weeks for reflexes to appear.
At 22 weeks in the fetus starts having a chance to survive in an incubator, with full medical attention. It's likely that figure will decrease in time some.
Just because I am modest (I'm also not an obgyn) and don't want to make definitive judgments it doesn't mean they would be arbitrary.
Again, I understand some religious arguments, but that should stay in the church, not the hospital.
"Zero facts", lol. The developmental stages are so well studied. You people think that medicine is some arcane pseudoscience that is of similar worth to praying, I swear.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

Who are you again?

stopped reading there

I don't care. Your funeral

 

[Stan]

"Zero facts", lol. The developmental stages are so well studied. You people think that medicine is some arcane pseudoscience that is of similar worth to praying, I swear.

They like medical science well enough when it agrees with their opinions. When it does not they dismiss it wholesale as a conspiracy to inject autism into kids or w/e.

 

[AgendaPoster]

They like medical science well enough when it agrees with their opinions. When it does not they dismiss it wholesale as a conspiracy to inject autism into kids or w/e.

Progressives do that too when it comes to trans and the obvious binary of sex.
Also when they muddy the waters on race.
Also when they muddy the waters by introducing feelings, i.e. gender, into hard, measurable science, genetics and sex.
Only those that speak against all these lies are worth listening to.
No holy cows.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

At the germinal stage, there is only a rapidly differentiating clump of cells. There are NO organs. There is no capacity to feel, no ability to survive outside the womb, hell, it's not yet life. It's literally a comfy tumor-like growth on the uterus.

Who cares if there's no capacity to feel yet? In a few weeks it will be. It makes no difference if it's three weeks ago or not. The clump cells argument doesn't matter. It's just cope by angry fujoshi's and medical workers with God Complex's from years of having their heads stuffed up their own asses.

 

[AgendaPoster]

Who cares if there's no capacity to feel yet? In a few weeks it will be. It makes no difference if it's three weeks ago or not. The clump cells argument doesn't matter. It's just cope by angry fujoshi's and medical workers with God Complex's from years of having their heads stuffed up their own asses.

OK you get surgery without anesthesia for this