Debate user Null on if agnostics should have to pick a side

[seri0us]

Null is not a Christian and doesn't have any kids.

 

[Netizennameless]

There is no meaningful distinction between the two.

Atheism is a definitive belief that no gods/deities exist. Agnosticism is the belief that one cannot know whether or not deities exist because they cannot be empirically measured at this point in time. It's basically saying "I don't know if god(s) exist(s) or not, because we have no way to measure it. If the evidence changes my beliefs are subject to change as well."

You either believe or you don't. Atheism already covers the "I don't know" and "I don't care" bases. Agnosticism fundamentally says nothing unique.

Disagree. They are very distinct and people simply lump them together out of lack of understanding.

 

[Londo]

Agnostics are fine. I'm a Christian and for a long time I was agnostic. Faith and belief are two different things. Some people feel a connection to the belief of a greater being without the aspect of having faith in one.

A lot of agnostics are what would be called spiritualists; they believe in a greater power but don't believe in the current religions or that religions are the bridge to that higher power. Therefore to call them theist is inaccurate. Non-theologically driven Christians fall under this too. They believe in the teachings of Jesus without believing the theological/mysticism aspects.

It's a situation of a lot of variables being compressed in to three labels: atheist, agnostics, and theist when religions and spiritual beliefs are very complicated and changes heavily on cultural background and person experience, and many don't study or know the terminology for other branches of belief (spiritualism, philosophical theism, non-theistic belief of a higher power).

Additionally, another aspect is that some people simply don't know if there is a God but don't outright deny the possibility of such. The fear of death and emptiness is very real in people and there isn't really a higher power that currently replaces God for much of it.

Josh normally has good takes. His view on this isn't one of them.

 

[Autistic Mushroom]

Atheism is a definitive belief that no gods/deities exist. Agnosticism is the belief that one cannot know whether or not deities exist because they cannot be empirically measured at this point in time. It's basically saying "I don't know if god(s) exist(s) or not, because we have no way to measure it. If the evidence changes my beliefs are subject to change as well."

The way I see it is you can't disprove something that has to be believed in with blind faith by nature, so Agnosticism saying "well I can't disprove anything" just kind of leaves me scratching my head and going "yeah, no shit?". This supposed definition of Atheism that exists only when comparing it to Agnosticism is just not realistic. Atheism doesn't claim to mean you are omniscient and know that outside of our material world, beyond our perceptible reality and understanding, no god exists. In both the case of Atheism and Agnosticism, they're just saying "I'll believe it when I see it."

Disagree. They are very distinct and people simply lump them together out of lack of understanding.

I think they believe the exact same things and the only difference is Agnostics are really self conscious about appearing smug about it.

 

[Null]

Funny that coming from @Null when he's terrified to elaborate on his religious views at all in public.

it's none of your fucking business faggot

agnostics are gay because have a term for being retarded. if I called myself a madeup word meaning "Idontwantotalkaboutistrian" then you'd also call that gay.

 

[Netizennameless]

The way I see it is you can't disprove something that has to be believed in with blind faith by nature, so Agnosticism saying "well I can't disprove anything" just kind of leaves me scratching my head and going "yeah, no shit?". This supposed definition of Atheism that exists only when comparing it to Agnosticism is just not realistic. Atheism doesn't claim to mean you are omniscient and know that outside of our material world, beyond our perceptible reality and understanding, no god exists. In both the case of Atheism and Agnosticism, they're just saying "I'll believe it when I see it."

People used to not understand the concept of bacteria, but they still existed. We just didn't have a way of measuring/observing them at the time. Atheists are people who have decided "nope, there is no god, I don't need evidence of that and my mind is not open to being changed." You are lumping two separate concepts together because that is how you have heard it be used. They have actual meanings though.

 

[Lithuophile]

Most agnostics are diet atheists anyway, and the only legitimate religious traditions they have are spiritualism, belief in "luck", and openness to accepting UFO's/ghosts.

Come to think of it, agnosticism is essentially a modern continuation of classical paganism but more schizophrenic.

 

[Londo]

it's none of your fucking business faggot

agnostics are gay because have a term for being retarded. if I called myself a madeup word meaning "Idontwantotalkaboutistrian" then you'd also call that gay.

Except it's not made up.

Agnosticism is a very real part of philosophy and especially western belief systems. This is the same argument as people saying there is no centre ground between the right and the left of politics. Religion is an important part of people's lives in a lot of places and we're social animals who require labels to make sense of the world we're in.

It's not hard to imagine someone who's been raised in either side of the divide (belief in a god, no belief in a god) may be conflicted with their views on religion. In the same way people may not be fully convinced on the views of their political ideology yet still believe in some aspects of it.

The world isn't black and white and you PERSONALLY have your belief in either direction, that doesn't mean others will too.

 

[Zetsubou]

That black-and-white thinking and forcing people to identify spiritually--as some tag that satiates your autism--is par-the-course for the site you mention previous.

I have theism or I have no theism, it's black and white because words mean things in Greek. It's the same black and white that defines having and not having in English. If you have no belief in theism even because it's "uncertainty" then you have no theism.

 

[KittyGremlin]

I guess I'm somewhat of an agnostic, but I try to act as if God does exist.

 

[Claude Sigma]

People used to not understand the concept of bacteria

Wow, we got one of those "germ theory" people in here.
Speaking of leap of faith you can't prove, you believe that there are those "living things so small you can't actually see them" causing you harm, even though the entire world has just been spending years wearing mass-manufactured plague doctor masks to protect themselves from what is actually miasma. Even according to your own theory those living things would get through the paper fiber anyway.

Guess what? It's called a theory because it's not proven. Checkmate germist.

 

[Null]

Agnosticism is a very real part of philosophy and especially western belief systems.

You're literally just too gay and retarded to have convictions tbh.

 

[Londo]

You're literally just too gay and retarded to have convictions tbh.

I'm a Christian. I have numerous principles and convictions. That doesn't mean I don't think others can't lose faith or have doubts.

 

[Autistic Mushroom]

People used to not understand the concept of bacteria, but they still existed. We just didn't have a way of measuring/observing them at the time. Atheists are people who have decided "nope, there is no god, I don't need evidence of that and my mind is not open to being changed." You are lumping two separate concepts together because that is how you have heard it be used. They have actual meanings though.

That definition of Atheism is just not realistic. The best way I can put this is with an analogy. There is a box, and you have to tell me if you think there's an apple inside it. The question is "without looking, are you convinced that there is an apple inside?" It doesn't matter if your answer is "no", "how should I know?", "I don't care", you are in all cases an Apple-Nonbeliever. This is the question presented by Theism, you believe or you do not. If I lift it and there is an apple and you are still not convinced, you are blind or insane. You're trying to say that that is what defines Atheism, a complete refusal and inability to learn, but that definition is ridiculous. Only the existence of a redundant term like Agnosticism could force Atheism to take such a warped definition.

 

[No. 7 cat]

The 'I'm not religious but spiritual' should be fired into the sun in the next NASA / Musk mission to the sun. Nothing is as gay. Nothing.

 

[insensitive]

A lot of agnostics are what would be called spiritualists; they believe in a greater power but don't believe in the current religions or that religions are the bridge to that higher power. Therefore to call them theist is inaccurate. Non-theologically driven Christians fall under this too. They believe in the teachings of Jesus without believing the theological/mysticism aspects.

I actually just use the term in place of "I don't care" when someone asks about my religious affiliation so I don't come off as an asshole in conversation.

 

[Londo]

I actually just use the term in place of "I don't care" when someone asks about my religious affiliation so I don't come off as an asshole in conversation.

Realistically that's really how most people should answer if they call themselves agnostic. But as I said, we exist with labels for a reason and most people don't care enough to use the right ones or just outright say they don't care.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

Atheists actively believe that there is no god. I have no idea, but I don't believe in god. Agnostic just describes a thing.

 

[Grub]

You're literally just too gay and retarded to have convictions tbh.

Imagine being arrogant enough to have convictions about something that is unknowable.

 

[insensitive]

Realistically that's really how most people should answer if they call themselves agnostic. But as I said, we exist with labels for a reason and most people don't care enough to use the right ones or just outright say they don't care.

Maybe I'm an outlier on this thread but I have a hard time seeing how you could avoid coming off as passive aggressive or dismissive about another's life devotion without giving it a seperate label.