Defining Racism

I don't know enough about Stern and Bakshi and the incidents you're referring to, honestly, but I don't know if dismissing antisemitism is that easy when Jews are the only examples you can come up with.
Well, it's more that I know more about Jews than other groups. I don't know much about, say, eminem.

Howard Stern was just one of a handful of white kids at his high school, and he got the shit kicked out of him regularly. It's possible there was an antisemitic angle to it, but I can't imagine all the people beating him up stopped to ask him his religion. Or maybe word got around? I don't know, but I could imagine a non-Jewish kid encountering the same reception.

Ralph Bakshi as a kid lived for awhile in a black neighborhood in DC. He fit in with the locals pretty well, but when he tried to enroll in a black school, his family was forced him to move elsewhere because there were concerns that there would be riots if it was found out that a white student was attending a black school.
I live in the deep south, and talking about racism this new, somewhat redefined way has been really helpful in getting the concept of systemic and/or institutionalized racism across to white people; that's how it should be used, not as a checkmate move in an argument. It's a helpful tool in framing explanations to white people in positions of power (employers, gov't officials, teachers, etc) who equate racism with blatant prejudice and the KKK, and don't think that they're being racist when they automatically assume any black person they meet is thuggish, ghetto, on drugs, or cheating the welfare system unless they act white enough to pass.
I know what you mean. Unless the cop is doing a nazi salute while kicking your teeth in, it doesn't count as racism to many people. And that's silly. There are lots of softer forms of racism. People need to realize that.

However, at the end of the day, I think redefining words as a rhetorical strategy alienates people and makes you seem dishonest. I generally think that arguments/explanations/lessons should be as simple as possible. Time spent explaining to someone how they're misunderstanding a well understood concept is time that you could've been using to get to your point.
 
Well, it's more that I know more about Jews than other groups. I don't know much about, say, eminem.

Howard Stern was just one of a handful of white kids at his high school, and he got the shit kicked out of him regularly. It's possible there was an antisemitic angle to it, but I can't imagine all the people beating him up stopped to ask him his religion. Or maybe word got around? I don't know, but I could imagine a non-Jewish kid encountering the same reception.

Ralph Bakshi as a kid lived for awhile in a black neighborhood in DC. He fit in with the locals pretty well, but when he tried to enroll in a black school, his family was forced him to move elsewhere because there were concerns that there would be riots if it was found out that a white student was attending a black school.

I know what you mean. Unless the cop is doing a nazi salute while kicking your teeth in, it doesn't count as racism to many people. And that's silly. There are lots of softer forms of racism. People need to realize that.

However, at the end of the day, I think redefining words as a rhetorical strategy alienates people and makes you seem dishonest. I generally think that arguments/explanations/lessons should be as simple as possible. Time spent explaining to someone how they're misunderstanding a well understood concept is time that you could've been using to get to your point.

Stern's case sounds like racial prejudice. Was Stern always the sort of edgy asshole he's known for being today? Since that could also be a part of it.

Riots about a white kid attending a black school in the (segregated? I assume?) south probably weren't concerns about the black people rioting, but the white people. So in that case, he could be argued to be disadvantaged by systemic racism (similar to how dads who get shafted in custody battles are disadvantaged by institutionalized misogyny, rather than by misandry).

In my experience, it's been easier to explain this definition of racism to people than it has been to explain to a middle class white man that on average, a black person (or any other minority) is at a considerable disadvantage to him in life due to systemic and deeply culturally ingrained racism. Like the argument against that shit is usually that 'what??? the system isn't RACIST, there's no LAW saying explicitly not to hire black people' so the term has changed in response to that sort of thinking, I'd imagine.

Changing the term helps with the people who think if you can't call something racist under the explicitly-racist definition they have in their heads, then the issue's not harmful or racially based at all. It helps with white people who go 'how am I racist? I have 2.5 black friends!' but then say shit like 'if black people were just as naturally intelligent as white people, why aren't there just as many black Harvard graduates as white ones?' or 'why can't they get off their lazy asses and just make more money?' Not to get all PC Principal about it, but it helps white people to better understand in explicit terms how they benefit from the current system, and it stops white people from going 'oh but they're not talking about me, I'm a good white person' automatically any time they see something involving the word 'racist.'

If idiots on the internet misuse it to win a fight, that's not a sign that the alternative definition is better.
 
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Racism to me has always been less about bigotry and more about how there's a belief mankind is divided into separate races. That's pretty much all it is - another -ism, a belief system like a religion or a philosophy; then again, this logic can be applied to sexism, which would make that the belief mankind is divided into sexes. tl;dr - if you're not sexist, you're a fucking moron!

Anyway, race in this sense is that mankind is only divided into race based solely on skin colour and minute differences that don't even mean much. HK Guenther, whose race philosphies inspired Hitler's regime, divided race into those who "create culture", those who "carry it forward", and those who "destroy it", which of course was used to mean the Germanic tribes of yore created culture, their Aryan children carried it forward, and the Jews were the ones to destroy it. Holding these beliefs about races are of course considered very bigoted and likely to get you clocked out for being a Trump supporter or something.

The more bigoted form of racism that SJWs cry foul over is none of this prejudice + power shit. If I have the power to be prejudiced as well as the power to be in charge of something, I have more than enough sense to fear taking in new people; you don't let strange sheep into the flock. Bigotry is taking that belief that mankind is divided into races and trying to create a hierarchy, usually with whites on top and the browns on the bottom where they belong. The only reason this works now is because it worked up until some 60 years ago, but with our current system of laws - 13th, 14th, 15th amendments,Civil Rights Act, Fair Housing act, Equal Pay Act - this system barely even exists. It's only alive because people who believe they are oppressed by this system keep it alive, and they're often helped by the media (inb4 "I DON'T BELIEVE THE LIBERAL MEDIA") to spread this viewpoint; imagine if the Michael Brown incident wasn't publicised as "WHITE COP SHOOTS UNARMED BLACK MAN". It would be "COP SHOOTS UNARMED MAN", where there would still be a shitstorm, but little to no race riots save for that small contingent of black folk who think the world revolves around them.

To put this as bluntly as possible, people who believe mankind is divided into several distinct racists are inherently bigoted and we're all just going to deny this because racists do not believe they are racist.
What you are talking about is racialism rather than racism
 
What you are talking about is racialism rather than racism

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My mistake.
 
As far as that being the normal way that it's used, I don't disagree, but I don't see a problem with changing the definition of the term to better reflect the realities of systemic racism that only marginalized groups face. If it's semantics, and you're in an argument with someone where you say they're racist and they go 'you can't be racist against white people because blah blah fuckin blah' I don't see what the big deal is with rolling your eyes and going 'fucking Christ, fine, it's racially prejudiced then.' If they contest the reality of that as a phenomenon, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about and they're just parroting what they heard someone else on the internet say to try and win an argument after they've already made an ass of themselves.
It makes very little sense to change the established meaning of a term and not create a new one instead. Words gather connotations as they age and an accusation of racism is a very serious one with serious connotations. Redesigning it so as to exclude whites (even if this is then covered by 'racial predujdice' ) is trying to remove those negative connotations when using it to describe a class the speaker favours. It's a redefinition meant to focus on allowing certain kinds of racism through and not others.


As for your point about AA that's exactly what it means- the concept is inherently racist and they will get passed over for a less qualified black, redefining terms like racism is done precisely so this is ok and harder to object to.
 
@norrington,

Has it occurred to you that, by giving racism a pass when those who enact it are "punching up" allows an unlimited degree of racism as long as those espousing it can concoct some way in which they're the victim? Or that such thought experiments are completely unnecessary since this is exactly what's been enacted by the likes of Jean-Jacques Dessalines, Idi Amin Dada, Robert Mugabe, Henry Ford, the capos Mao put in charge of minority-majority provinces like Tibet and Xinjiang, the True Whig party, Saddam Hussein, Hugo Chavez, the KKK, and even the Führer Himself?

Are you aware that human social groups seldom divide neatly between oppressors and the oppressed? Or the sheer absurdity of the hoops that are needed to jump through in order to justify your philosophy?

Has it crossed your mind that this identity politics mentality -- where the only way to judge someone is in the context of factors outside their control like their ethnicity or gender -- is a hideously illiberal position which runs counter to everything good about free society and is driving the entire Left Wing to intellectual death?

If not, why? What compells you go support such an unworkable philosophy?
 
It makes very little sense to change the established meaning of a term and not create a new one instead. Words gather connotations as they age and an accusation of racism is a very serious one with serious connotations. Redesigning it so as to exclude whites (even if this is then covered by 'racial predujdice' ) is trying to remove those negative connotations when using it to describe a class the speaker favours. It's a redefinition meant to focus on allowing certain kinds of racism through and not others.


As for your point about AA that's exactly what it means- the concept is inherently racist and they will get passed over for a less qualified black, redefining terms like racism is done precisely so this is ok and harder to object to.

This got long as shit. Sorry. Obviously you're not under any obligation to read it. I appreciate you engaging with me about it nonetheless and reading through the rest of the shit I've thrown out here so far.

Is it that serious an accusation, though? I mean, yeah, people have lost jobs over accusations of racism, but usually after doing something like posting pictures of themselves in blackface on their Facebook profiles. I can't think of someone getting fired or having their life seriously affected over accusations of racism when there's no hard evidence there; it's not like adultery or a closeted sexuality, it doesn't spread around after the person and get talked about behind closed doors in a negative way (at least not where I'm from). A black guy won't get fired for just acting racially prejudiced against white people, maybe, but I'd argue a white guy is just as unlikely (if not more unlikely) to get fired for being racist (or racially prejudiced, I guess makes more sense for the argument I'm about to make) in the workplace.

That sort of speaks to why the distinction is, in my opinion, one worth making. A black person won't get fired for being racist, because what could they really do to white people that would be the inverse equivalent of blackface, or of something like this video? To me, there's a big difference between the weight behind white-on-black racism and its reverse. That's the difference the sociological field is trying to point to.

Now, in the common vernacular, I don't see a problem with people using the term 'racist' the way it's always been used, to refer to any racial prejudice in any direction. I also don't think it's wrong of someone to take the opportunity presented by an accusation of 'reverse racism' to talk about how the terminology is changing, to talk about systemic racism. Saying 'you can't be reverse racist' is just another way of saying 'yeah, a black person may be prejudiced against white people, but there is virtually no viable comparison between that and white-on-black racism, which has a hell of a lot more institutionalized and systemic violently racist ideology backing it.'

As I've said, though, that doesn't mean I think it's reasonable for a white person to use that counter as a trump card to win an argument and then blow the other person off like they've won. Black people, in general, can hold their hands up and say 'it's not my job to educate you.' in my view anyway, because I'm one of those people that thinks it's not on the oppressed group to educate the oppressive majority on how their group's oppression has shaped the modern world. I will say, however, that in my experience, if a black person thinks you'll genuinely hear them when they talk to you about this kind of thing, they will stop and explain it to you calmly and rationally and in great detail despite their lack of obligation, because it matters to them,because they know just how important it is. The people I see going 'you can't be REVERSE RACIST' and using that as a get-out-of-jail-free card in an argument tend to be white people who barely understand the concept themselves.

I mean, in the end, though, no one person can dictate how or when or by whom words ought to be used, so at this point the argument of whether or not the sociological definition should be brought up in everyday conversations seems like a simple matter of opinion. But I could be wrong,especially if you still hold that accusations of racism are more serious than I perceive them.


Part Two Re: Affirmative Action

As for the rest of it, I don't know shit about how or to what extent Affirmative Action is enacted in the rest of the world, but in the US, even if it's not the 'colorblind' style people have been advocating for more recently, I think it's necessary in a lot of areas of the country, particularly the South. For one thing, I'd assume the amount of people that are truly overlooked for less qualified (much less unqualified) candidates is negligible; even if it weren't, I don't see it as inherently wrong that the system has measures in place to correct for the disadvantaged position certain minority groups start out at in applying for jobs/schools, a disadvantage that same system played a large role in establishing for them and, arguably, still does today.

In somewhere like the UK, the lines are a bit fuzzier since they don't necessarily have a directly institutionalized top-down history of systemic racism like the US does (I could try and make the argument if anyone's interested in hacking down that path, I guess). Here, though, you have loads of states that had laws in place specifically designed to disenfranchise black voters, you had segregation and intense local violence (full-out lynchings happened in the US as late as the '60s) keeping past generations from getting educations or better jobs, you have racial prejudice deeply ingrained into the local cultural mindset, you had black schools getting lower quality materials and much less funding, and today's generation of black students are still affected by these setbacks; Affirmative Action is a system attempting to correct its own wrongs, rather than attempting to make the natural way of things more PC-friendly.

You can definitely argue that it's not the government's place to do that, and of course you can argue that it flat out does not work. To the first, I say if a government's going to have the level of authority our government does, this imposition is in no way beyond the scope of what they ought to be doing, and it's hardly beyond any other limitations the government places on businesses and publicly funded schools. As to the second, I'd say that no one who's ever argued for Affirmative Action ever genuinely thought it'd fix all the racial woes of the US, but that it's a small step towards leveling the playing field after centuries of brutal oppression.


EDIT: including this to avoid double-post
@norrington,

Has it occurred to you that, by giving racism a pass when those who enact it are "punching up" allows an unlimited degree of racism as long as those espousing it can concoct some way in which they're the victim? Or that such thought experiments are completely unnecessary since this is exactly what's been enacted by the likes of Jean-Jacques Dessalines, Idi Amin Dada, Robert Mugabe, Henry Ford, the capos Mao put in charge of minority-majority provinces like Tibet and Xinjiang, the True Whig party, Saddam Hussein, Hugo Chavez, the KKK, and even the Führer Himself?

Are you aware that human social groups seldom divide neatly between oppressors and the oppressed? Or the sheer absurdity of the hoops that are needed to jump through in order to justify your philosophy?

Has it crossed your mind that this identity politics mentality -- where the only way to judge someone is in the context of factors outside their control like their ethnicity or gender -- is a hideously illiberal position which runs counter to everything good about free society and is driving the entire Left Wing to intellectual death?

If not, why? What compells you go support such an unworkable philosophy?

I'm not suggesting we give people a pass for treating other people like shit, no matter who they are or what race they're from. I'm suggesting that there's validity to distinguishing between systemic racism and individual instances of racial prejudice. Minorities aren't magically cured of all their woes just because they have a response when someone accuses them of reverse racism.
 
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As for the rest of it, I don't know shit about how or to what extent Affirmative Action is enacted in the rest of the world, but in the US, even if it's not the 'colorblind' style people have been advocating for more recently, I think it's necessary in a lot of areas of the country, particularly the South. For one thing, I'd assume the amount of people that are truly overlooked for less qualified (much less unqualified) candidates is negligible; even if it weren't, I don't see it as inherently wrong that the system has measures in place to correct for the disadvantaged position certain minority groups start out at in applying for jobs/schools, a disadvantage that same system played a large role in establishing for them and, arguably, still does today.

In somewhere like the UK, the lines are a bit fuzzier since they don't necessarily have a directly institutionalized top-down history of systemic racism like the US does (I could try and make the argument if anyone's interested in hacking down that path, I guess). Here, though, you have loads of states that had laws in place specifically designed to disenfranchise black voters, you had segregation and intense local violence (full-out lynchings happened in the US as late as the '60s) keeping past generations from getting educations or better jobs, you have racial prejudice deeply ingrained into the local cultural mindset, you had black schools getting lower quality materials and much less funding, and today's generation of black students are still affected by these setbacks; Affirmative Action is a system attempting to correct its own wrongs, rather than attempting to make the natural way of things more PC-friendly.

You can definitely argue that it's not the government's place to do that, and of course you can argue that it flat out does not work. To the first, I say if a government's going to have the level of authority our government does, this imposition is in no way beyond the scope of what they ought to be doing, and it's hardly beyond any other limitations the government places on businesses and publicly funded schools. As to the second, I'd say that no one who's ever argued for Affirmative Action ever genuinely thought it'd fix all the racial woes of the US, but that it's a small step towards leveling the playing field after centuries of brutal oppression.
i like the long replies thank you for taking the time to write them. I can only apologise that my own responses won't be as long. i do acknowledge that most of what you post is reasonable and I'm not going to address it all.

AA might have noble goals but that doesn't change the fact that fundamentally it is a system of discrimination based on race. While it may be a positive discrimination for every positive there is a negative and the net result is that it does discriminate against whites. Redefining Racism is done specifically to avoid people from describing policies like this as racist- it's sophistry as they clearly are and do have a negative impact on whites. One might argue as you have attempted that they rebalance the classes but that is a political goal and does not change that to the end result is a discrimination against an indivual based on the colour of their skin not their individual ability.

One can argue (as i think you have tried) that its politically necessary racism but it is still racism and redefining the word has no purpose other than to make challenging what should be a highly controversial subject harder to challenge and to try and cloak it in spin. Maybe it is politically necessary- but that isn't an argument for redefining the terms.
Is it that serious an accusation, though? I mean, yeah, people have lost jobs over accusations of racism, but usually after doing something like posting pictures of themselves in blackface on their Facebook profiles. I can't think of someone getting fired or having their life seriously affected over accusations of racism when there's no hard evidence there; it's not like adultery or a closeted sexuality, it doesn't spread around after the person and get talked about behind closed doors in a negative way (at least not where I'm from). A black guy won't get fired for just acting racially prejudiced against white people, maybe, but I'd argue a white guy is just as unlikely (if not more unlikely) to get fired for being racist (or racially prejudiced, I guess makes more sense for the argument I'm about to make) in the workplace.

That sort of speaks to why the distinction is, in my opinion, one worth making. A black person won't get fired for being racist, because what could they really do to white people that would be the inverse equivalent of blackface, or of something like this video? To me, there's a big difference between the weight behind white-on-black racism and its reverse. That's the difference the sociological field is trying to point to.

Now, in the common vernacular, I don't see a problem with people using the term 'racist' the way it's always been used, to refer to any racial prejudice in any direction. I also don't think it's wrong of someone to take the opportunity presented by an accusation of 'reverse racism' to talk about how the terminology is changing, to talk about systemic racism. Saying 'you can't be reverse racist' is just another way of saying 'yeah, a black person may be prejudiced against white people, but there is virtually no viable comparison between that and white-on-black racism, which has a hell of a lot more institutionalized and systemic violently racist ideology backing it.'

As I've said, though, that doesn't mean I think it's reasonable for a white person to use that counter as a trump card to win an argument and then blow the other person off like they've won. Black people, in general, can hold their hands up and say 'it's not my job to educate you.' in my view anyway, because I'm one of those people that thinks it's not on the oppressed group to educate the oppressive majority on how their group's oppression has shaped the modern world. I will say, however, that in my experience, if a black person thinks you'll genuinely hear them when they talk to you about this kind of thing, they will stop and explain it to you calmly and rationally and in great detail despite their lack of obligation, because it matters to them,because they know just how important it is. The people I see going 'you can't be REVERSE RACIST' and using that as a get-out-of-jail-free card in an argument tend to be white people who barely understand the concept themselves.

I mean, in the end, though, no one person can dictate how or when or by whom words ought to be used, so at this point the argument of whether or not the sociological definition should be brought up in everyday conversations seems like a simple matter of opinion. But I could be wrong,especially if you still hold that accusations of racism are more seriously than I perceive them.

That is a very collectivist view and that's not in itself a bad thing but in my opinion such broad policy always fails in practical detail.

A white person can absolutely be subject to the same institutional racism if the institution they are applying to happens to be majority BME or pushing quotas aggressively. A black person ridiculing using whiteface might be unlikely but there is absolutely nothing preventing a group of BME people singling out an individual because of race and excluding or ridiculing them. I don't see any significant difference in reverse racism and the regular form except that one has a historical context and as i do not believe the individual should be effected by the historical actions of their class i see no reason why this should be treated differently.

If I call a black colleague a nigger and he complained I would rightly expect to be dismissed, If he called me a cracker and I complained I would expect the same, otherwise I'm being treated differently based on the class of my birth something which i have no control over- this is discrimination and the fact that white people have not been racially abused by powerful blacks in the past is completely irrelevant.

white on black racism might be more prevalent but that is irrelevent- laws which do not distinguish between systematic racism or racism and 'reverse racism' should still deal with these cases just fine.

As for 'its not my job to educate you' it's a fundamental tenant of both law and logic that the burden of proof in an accusation must lie on the accuser. It doesn't matter whether they are part of an oppressed class or an oppressed individual if someone makes an accusation or allegation of racism systematic or otherwise the onus must be on them to prove it. Saying 'its not my job to educate you' is absolutely inadequate because it leaves the accused party having to prove a negative.

I'm afraid if black people wish to claim they are being treated unfairly then they do have an obligation to prove it- exactly the same as a white person or any other group.

the sociological definition is used almost exclusively by collectivist academics precisely to avoid admitting that collectivist policies are by their nature racist. This is sophistry and i think it is absolutely valid and important that a politically motivated redefinition not be accepted into common use. Western society is fundamentally liberal individualist in nature- see private property rights and the importance we place on personal rights. I think its extremely dangerous to allow incompatible collectivist terms to filter into our culture as they inevitably lead to the curtailing of the liberty of the individual for traits they have no control over.
 
@Vitriol I'm only familiar with the collectivism/individualism opposition in certain specific philosophical/political examples, I'm not sure I'm familiar enough with broader philosophical basics to get what you mean by that here. I get your point about the modern history of western society being intricately linked to liberal individualism, and I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying overall, but could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by collectivism in this? Or point me in the direction of the right neighborhood at least, I don't mind doing the grunt work, but are we talking in a Marxist sense or a universalist sense or is that all sort of the same shit or am I completely off the mark and in desperate need of an Introductory Philosophy class?

Also, your posts are well thought out and considerate, what more could somebody ask for? Length's irrelevant, if it's that.
 
@norrington,

Again, you're basing this on the idea that all people in an ethnic group have either equal moral guilt of equal moral virtue. The world's always been more complicated than that, and people are very good at twisting any one exception to anything so they can have a kosher outlet for their horrendous evil to spread unchecked?

Look at Robert Mugabe. To this day he blames colonialism and espouts the righteousness of African victimhood to distract from his crimes in Zimbabwe against every citizen of every color. The CSA's Whites used the actions of the North and the Reconstruction to grant themselves moral pardon for their horrendous crimes against the newly-freed Plantation Blacks. Russians today use the boogeyman of The West to justify actions ranging from oppression of gays to supporting Bashar al-Assad.

I can go on, but I'll boil this down to one point: Since you've earlier admitted this definition is something that can be changed; -- via your earlier admittion of power-plus-privilige itself being a change but one you feel is worth enacting -- why do you feel this is an improvement compared to the harm this dogma causes to the world when put in action?
 
@Vitriol I'm only familiar with the collectivism/individualism opposition in certain specific philosophical/political examples, I'm not sure I'm familiar enough with broader philosophical basics to get what you mean by that here. I get your point about the modern history of western society being intricately linked to liberal individualism, and I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying overall, but could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by collectivism in this? Or point me in the direction of the right neighborhood at least, I don't mind doing the grunt work, but are we talking in a Marxist sense or a universalist sense or is that all sort of the same shit or am I completely off the mark and in desperate need of an Introductory Philosophy class?

Also, your posts are well thought out and considerate, what more could somebody ask for? Length's irrelevant, if it's that.
sure happy to elaborate a little-

regardless of field, be it law, philosophy, politics or sociology one can choose to approach things either by regarding people as a sum of classes eg cis, white, protestant, male or by their individual circumstance- Vitriol.

So when we apply this to the concept that all people are equal we get two subtly different positions.

For the individualist the person inherits equality as a personal right and anyone who encroaches on that has offended the individual right and so it becomes irrelevant which group has power in society as all members regardless of skin colour possess the same right to equality by virtue of their personhood. so Vitriol must be equal with James.

A collectivist approach takes the view that all classes are equal and therefore employs class based solutions. So blacks as an example must be collectively equal with whites and therefore it is, in the collectivist view, just to discriminate in favour of certain individual blacks against whites in order to balance out the classes- an example of this is AA.

if we look at this hypothetically from a tax perspective instead of employment or criminal harassment for the purpose of illustration the distinction becomes more clear.

let us take two countries I and C. both have a history of whites oppressing blacks. Both have a constitution stating that all people are equal. i is individualist in founding C is collectivist.

Then we take our person X who is white and person Y who is black. they have the same job.

X finds he is being taxed more than Y.

In I he has a recourse as his personal right is to be taxed the same as Y and the colour of his skin is not relevant to his possessing of the right

In C as he is part of a historically oppressive class he may have to pay the extra tax as he is part of an advantaged class as the state attempts to balance class wide inequality despite him having never directly caused it. His personal liberty to enjoy the fruits of his labour is therefore curtailed by his skin colour or the behaviour of his forebears- something he had no control over.
I've simplified this because it has been a long time since i studied it and I'm going off memory.

from you're writing i would assume that most of what you have been exposed to academically is Sociology or Anthropology based- both these fields have a natural bias towards collectivism and consequently the lecturers tend to be collectivists. Jurisprudence is notably different and tends towards the other way, even if you are not convinced by my points I'd encourage you to pick up a textbook on basic jurisprudence and it should provide you with better and fuller explanations than mine above.
 
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One thing that many people do not realize is that affirmative action often harms its beneficiary classes because it causes the beneficiaries to on average be worse at the job than those who get it based on skill. This means that they are more likely to be unable to perform the job and reinforces the inequalities it was meant to fight against.
 
One thing that many people do not realize is that affirmative action often harms its beneficiary classes because it causes the beneficiaries to on average be worse at the job than those who get it based on skill. This means that they are more likely to be unable to perform the job and reinforces the inequalities it was meant to fight against.
the late Scalia pointed this out recently-http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/12045037/Supreme-Court-judge-criticised-over-seeming-to-say-black-students-do-better-at-less-academic-schools.html

People were so blinded by their hate for him they tend to overlook that he was a very intelligent man with some perfectly valid points. Albeit also some very conservative opinions.
 
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@norrington,

Again, you're basing this on the idea that all people in an ethnic group have either equal moral guilt of equal moral virtue. The world's always been more complicated than that, and people are very good at twisting any one exception to anything so they can have a kosher outlet for their horrendous evil to spread unchecked?

Look at Robert Mugabe. To this day he blames colonialism and espouts the righteousness of African victimhood to distract from his crimes in Zimbabwe against every citizen of every color. The CSA's Whites used the actions of the North and the Reconstruction to grant themselves moral pardon for their horrendous crimes against the newly-freed Plantation Blacks. Russians today use the boogeyman of The West to justify actions ranging from oppression of gays to supporting Bashar al-Assad.

I can go on, but I'll boil this down to one point: Since you've earlier admitted this definition is something that can be changed; -- via your earlier admittion of power-plus-privilige itself being a change but one you feel is worth enacting -- why do you feel this is an improvement compared to the harm this dogma causes to the world when put in action?


I'm not looking to blame anyone. I think blame is a pretty toxic notion in general, but particularly when it's applied en masse. I said as much in the radicalism thread at a couple different points (albeit in slightly different terms), if you were following that one. Switching the term is meant to highlight the disadvantage minorities are at in a society that has, since it's foundation and until the past few decades (or even up to modern day, depending on where you draw the line on the definition of systemic and/or institutionalized racism), been founded on the oppression of those minorities to the benefit of the white population.

It changes the conversation, it ties the modern day cultural, social, and economic ramifications of centuries of violent and systemic racism to something concrete and easily understandable as a concept. It connects the struggle the average minority citizen faces today with the historical context by which that struggle was created. Most of all, I appreciate it because when I'm explaining it to someone particularly dismissive, skeptical, and/or hostile to ideas and definitons in race relations, I don't have to pull out some bullshit sociological term to explain the weight of institutionalized racism that they would say is made up by white-liberal-guilt-riddled academics for the sake of people who want to feel sorry for themselves and want something else to blame for their failures and/or laziness in life. Some people (family members of mine come to mind) still try to say as much about the concept of institutionalized racism, but on the whole, in my experience, it's seemed to be easier for people to grasp when you explain it in these terms as opposed to having to create a new type of black-only or minority-only systemic and harmful system of oppression.

Explaining how 'racism' in its institutional form is an experience exclusive to an oppressed minority that members of the oppressive majority can't experience firsthand is easier than trying to tell people 'well sure black people can be racist but only white people can be UBERRACIST which is way more awful and damaging'. The weight of the word racism (which do I think carries weight in its meaning, but not so much as an accusation because it's easily confronted in cases where there is no malicious intent by having a conversation with the accuser) being applied universally in any scenario while some made up word most people don't even believe is the only one minorities get "ownership" of exclusively just seems bass ackwards. The word 'racism' has more weight behind it than the word 'prejudice'; prejudiced acts committed in a downward direction in the context of an institutionalized system of oppression has more weight behind them because they are generally going to be more powerful/effective as an action, and because the oppressed individual already in a system of oppression outside of this specific act is going to have a harder time recovering from it.

The words have been changed to more proportionately reflect what they're describing.

A white person can absolutely be subject to the same institutional racism if the institution they are applying to happens to be majority BME or pushing quotas aggressively.

This is sort of what I'm talking about with the layering effect of individual oppression on top of societal oppression. The white guy is oppressed based on his race in that specific circumstance, but his chances of finding a different employer or college that will hire/accept him is high because, even if this was a post-racial world, human beings generally find people like themselves and from similar backgrounds more trustworthy/relatable/appealing (I can dig up a psych source if need be, I know I should off the bat but I'm trying to be quick) and there are far more white people sitting on admissions boards and hiring committees than there are racially prejudiced black men in those same positions (you've pointed out that Affirmative Action balances this somewhat, which is what I'm saying the point of it).

We don't live in a post racial society, though, of course, and on top of this more basic evolutionary instinct to trust people from our own 'tribe.' you have a lot of racist ass white people who often don't even know they're racist in positions of authority and power within the system. Or if they do know they're racist, they know that they are and resent/self-shame for it without ever really understanding how they're racist, how racism is perpetuated, and so on. Even white people with good intentions do this, partially because this conversation tends to be such an uncomfortable one and people have such an adverse reaction when the word 'racist' comes into play.


If I call a black colleague a nigger and he complained I would rightly expect to be dismissed, If he called me a cracker and I complained I would expect the same, otherwise I'm being treated differently based on the class of my birth...
If it were one to one, yeah, but I'd argue that one of those is much more inappropriate and offensive than the other, which might be more of a factor in any variations between punishment in the two cases as opposed to the difference being due solely to race. I don't mean to just dismiss this example by getting stuck on that kind of technicality because I know you're making a bigger point but I'm not positive I know exactly how it fits into your argument here.

As for 'its not my job to educate you' it's a fundamental tenant of both law and logic that the burden of proof in an accusation must lie on the accuser

In a court of law, yeah, absolutely. I'm not suggesting that as a hard and fast rule, it's just a personal belief of my own, and like I said, it's usually irrelevant, because most black people I've met who genuinely believe they're going to be heard out and carefully considered will do everything they can to explain it. I'd argue that it's not immediately comparable with a fresh court case, either, since the whole conversation a consequence of previous crimes and unjust punishments. I genuinely cannot think through a proper legal metaphor here for that sort of back and forth, so I'll settle for just saying it doesn't seem as simple to me as a plaintiff/defendant relationship, on top of the fact that in a courtroom, the plaintiff themselves is not the person advocating for their side, they have a lawyer to do it for them, but obviously black people and other minorities aren't going to hire lawyers to explain what wrongs have been done to their minority groups over the years to every person who denies the existence of any disadvantage or oppression. Regardless, though, it's mostly irrelevant; it's not a moral judgement, it's not something I think anyone else is obligated to believe or not to believe.

Let me know if I missed anything.
 
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One thing that many people do not realize is that affirmative action often harms its beneficiary classes because it causes the beneficiaries to on average be worse at the job than those who get it based on skill. This means that they are more likely to be unable to perform the job and reinforces the inequalities it was meant to fight against.
Do you have a source for more info on this? I don't hear this argument often and I'd like to read more about it.
 
We don't live in a post racial society, though, of course, and on top of this more basic evolutionary instinct to trust people from our own 'tribe.' you have a lot of racist ass white people who often don't even know they're racist in positions of authority and power within the system. Or if they do know they're racist, they know that they are and resent/self-shame for it without ever really understanding how they're racist, how racism is perpetuated, and so on. Even white people with good intentions do this, partially because this conversation tends to be such an uncomfortable one and people have such an adverse reaction when the word 'racist' comes into play.
Racism is judging people on the colour of their skin, if this is as widespread as you claim it should be easy to prove and black people affected by it should have easy cases. As it is the notion that all white people are inherently racist is, ironically, racist.


This is sort of what I'm talking about with the layering effect of individual oppression on top of societal oppression. The white guy is oppressed based on his race in that specific circumstance, but his chances of finding a different employer or college that will hire/accept him is high because, even if this was a post-racial world, human beings generally find people like themselves and from similar backgrounds more trustworthy/relatable/appealing (I can dig up a psych source if need be, I know I should off the bat but I'm trying to be quick) and there are far more white people sitting on admissions boards and hiring committees than there are racially prejudiced black men in those same positions (you've pointed out that Affirmative Action balances this somewhat, which is what I'm saying the point of it).
this, while correct ,is irrelevant in dealing with his specific instance likewise the black man with his systematic oppression can claim as an individual each time. If we agree that all individuals are equal then there is no need to distinguish between types of racism- the only purpose for doing so is letting some forms through.
If it were one to one, yeah, but I'd argue that one of those is much more inappropriate and offensive than the other, which might be more of a factor in any variations between punishment in the two cases as opposed to the difference being due solely to race. I don't mean to just dismiss this example by getting stuck on that kind of technicality because I know you're making a bigger point but I'm not positive I know exactly how it fits into your argument here.

My point is the wider context is irrelevant- it is not worse for me to abuse him racially than for him to abuse me because we share the same basic rights. feeling that one term is worse than the other is irrelevant as it is the intention behind the word that gives it its power- hence why slurs evolve over time. My point is that the actions of the individual should not be mitigated or exaggerated by being born into a certain class and yet if we make a distinction between racism and reverse racism based on historical or systematic causes that is what we are doing.

In a court of law, yeah, absolutely. I'm not suggesting that as a hard and fast rule, it's just a personal belief of my own, and like I said, it's usually irrelevant, because most black people I've met who genuinely believe they're going to be heard out and carefully considered will do everything they can to explain it. I'd argue that it's not immediately comparable with a fresh court case, either, since the whole conversation a consequence of previous crimes and unjust punishments. I genuinely cannot think through a proper legal metaphor here for that sort of back and forth, so I'll settle for just saying it doesn't seem as simple to me as a plaintiff/defendant relationship, on top of the fact that in a courtroom, the plaintiff themselves is not the person advocating for their side, they have a lawyer to do it for them, but obviously black people and other minorities aren't going to hire lawyers to explain what wrongs have been done to their minority groups over the years to every person who denies the existence of any disadvantage or oppression. Regardless, though, it's mostly irrelevant; it's not a moral judgement, it's not something I think anyone else is obligated to believe or not to believe.

Its a point of rhetoric and reasoning, not of law, if black people cannot articulate clearly and prove what is wrong they cannot expect change. In any discussion, such as the one the society needs to have regarding race those who make an allegation have to prove it- once its proved the other side must then refute. Saying 'its not my job to educate you' is refusing to engage in this process and effectively demanding the other side 'listen and believe' . The back and forth in the legal context is called an adversarial proceeding but in normal language we just call it a discussion.

In a democracy policy is not made by hiring lawyers but by winning public discussion. In order to achieve best policy arguments should be persuasive and for that the above method must be followed. Otherwise the side that makes the allegation wins by default. If you don't believe me- prove in your next post that you are not racist against white people.

yes there are issues about resources and equality of arms etc but these do not alter the role of the natural burden of proof in reaching the best conclusion.
 
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If we agree that all individuals are equal then there is no need to distinguish between types of racism

Nobody wants actual equality anymore, they want their 15 minutes of catharsis.

To acknowledge that all individuals are equal would, on some deeper and unconscious level, be to reason that racism is wrong, that everybody is more or less on the same starting line, and that nobody regardless of past mistakes, prejudices, thoughts, and actions should continue to be held accountable to the burdens of those stigmas on them, because the people who committed them are long dead and gone from this world, and that it's completely reasonable to move on as a unified humanity to more important things.

Racism is a silly, accusatory word that; as you stated in the very beginning, has more or less become a tool used by people who feel disenfranchised to knock another group down a peg that they feel offends them on some level just by lieu of being in a better or more privileged situation. It's like a see-saw, one group goes down, and the other goes up in its place where it can ventilate its own prejudices as "vengeance" while justifying it with the accusation of racism. Then the counter group will use this same accusation to continue to push back up and continue cycle of aggression and nothing actually progressive gets done.

Black Racism, Hispanic Racism, etc; it was "okay" for a good while for this kind of racism to exist because only Whitey was the one who got to be on the top of the seesaw for the longest time. When we live in a world, as we do now, than can at least acknowledge that it's still racist for somebody colored to discriminate and hate on somebody else different from them for difference's sake; it doesn't do anything but to acknowledge a problem because nobody wants to work on fixing it, it merely self perpetuates.
 
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Racism is a silly, accusatory word that; as you stated in the very beginning, has more or less become a tool used by people who feel disenfranchised to knock another group down a peg that they feel offends them on some level just by lieu of being in a better or more privileged situation.

Just because some groups try to derail the meaning of the word does not make the word any less relevant. Judging people solely on account of their selected physical characteristics (skin colour, nose shape, etc.) is wrong and stupid and it doesn't matter who does it, it's still racism.
 
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