Do animals have souls?

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Are animals soulful?

  • Yes, but they are not within God's covenant (they are condemned)

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • Yes, but they are not within God's covenant (they are not condemned)

    Votes: 21 65.6%
  • No, and they are condemned

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • No, but they are not condemned

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • N/A or see answers

    Votes: 5 15.6%

  • Total voters
    32
One time I was tripping on LSD and the was some movie on the TV, I immediately noticed that people's eyes and mouths were kind of floating in front of their faces. It made me realize that our brains process eyes and mouth separately from the rest of visual input. The skin of the face is no different than the sky or the trees, they're the background. Because I was tripping balls these two systems were out of sync and I didn't perceive the entire face as a coherent whole.

Where am I going with this? Well to me it seems that when you strip away the religious and philosophical connotations, the concept of a soul comes down to perception. We perceive other humans as having souls, because our brains have dedicated machinery for interacting with other humans, separate from the rest of our environment. We have deeply built-in preconceptions about the structure of reality, because our genes endow us with a particular brain structure, because it's adaptive.

You can't isolate or measure a soul in the laboratory. Instead, you rely on your built-in soul detector. It may get confused when you look at apes. Brains are also quite flexible and I don't doubt that people can see the soul in their dog's eyes for example, but I'd question the sincerity of anyone who tried to argue that mosquitoes and tapeworms have souls. So it's subjective but not arbitrary.

The idea that the soul is the conscious brain is bullshit scientism from atheists. I've seen way more than enough evidence of souls communicating without presence in a living body, so it's pretty conclusive to me it's a real genuine thing and the deniers are just sheltered from those kinds of experiences that many people have had.

Interesting question...but I need to ask why would there need to be animals in heaven?

Revelation 21:4

Revelation 5:13


I would suggest that those in heaven for a greater purpose. Gone would be the pull for worldly desires. Rather, heaven would be a place where all sorrow is removed so God can be praised unceasingly.

In such an environment, why would our better selves even need animals?

Animals already existed in Eden. Why wouldn't they be there?
 
Meme Catholics are retarded. The Bible obviously implied animals have souls or it wouldn't have made an appropriate sacrifice, thus Cain's vegetables getting the thumbs down.
They got the thumbs down because the smell was not pleasing to YHWH, who likes burnt meat and fat.
 
The idea that the soul is the conscious brain is bullshit scientism from atheists.
I'm far from religious, never had any personal paranormal experience, not saying it's true or not, but honestly, the positivist, heckin love science cult will deny some things, claiming it's self-hypnosis, yet will eat all the crap from the circlejerk that is modern academia. Their "skepticism" is arbitrary and their reactions are not very different from some snackbar mad that his pedophilic prophet was drawn.
 
Of course they do. That's why they taste better when you make them suffer first.
 
Your definition of the soul doesn’t encompass its most common spiritual aspect, that being a “spark of life” which can exist independent of the physical body, and potentially transfer to a new body. Personally I don’t find your definition all that useful because we already have a word for that, sentience; and at a higher degree, sapience; which doesn’t come with the additional spiritual connotations of the soul. Asking “do animals have souls?” has a VERY different connotation from asking “are animals sentient?”; one is a spiritual question that has no right answer, the other is a scientific question whose answer is very much “no fucking shit” with the caveat that sentience is a sliding scale with no clear beginning point.

Are bacteria sentient? Almost certainly not. What about simple multicellular life like planarians? Small insects like ants? Large insects like rhinoceros beetles? Simple vertebrates like small lizards? Higher vertebrates like dogs, pigs, and dolphins? We can come up with subjective judgments in each of these cases but there isn’t really a clear line.

Personally, I believe that the “collective consciousness” is the thing that most resembles the classical spiritual definition of a “soul” - a form of higher-order emergent intelligence that arises from the interactions of lesser organisms, which is not bound to any one physical body in the same way that our own sapience is not bound to any individual cell in our brain. The classic example is the slime mold or the ant-hill or the bee hive: a super-organism comprised of many small component organisms that exhibits a kind of collective intelligence far beyond the capabilities of its individual components. I think that any kind of group or society will develop this collective consciousness once it reaches a sufficient scale or complexity, in an analogous manner to how individual organisms will gain sentience and then sapience as their complexity (or, rather, the complexity of their brains) grows.
So, is there in an immortal soul, more like. I disagree that experiencing qualia is the same as sentience, because you can't rule out the existence of a philosophical zombie (behaves exactly like a sentient creature but does not have subjective experience), I just don't think they would exist because there's no reason to assume that they would.

I feel like - and this is an idea that I sort of had as a revelation, but have been unable to formulate in a logical way - anything that experiences qualia has to have an immortal soul because qualia can only be experienced as a flow, and if that flow terminates at some point that ceases to be a flow. When I had general anesthesia for my wisdom teeth removal, it felt to me as close to nonexistence as I think any living person will ever achieve, because unlike the sensation of sleep or a coma, there was literally no experience of the passage of time, just an instantaneous jump from the last moment of lucidity to me coming back, and without any awareness before or after that it was ready to kick in. What I've read is that anesthesia like that operates by suppressing memory formation. The brain continues to experience everything it usually does, it is just as alive, but the memories don't form, so each sensation is just an instant in time, discrete, like a frame of video or a pixel in a screen. During that time I was definitely still alive and sentient, but while I may have in some physical sense been there, for any practical purpose I wasn't. There is something to that experience of memory, the flow of event into event, that makes life life. For it to stop would package it into a discrete event, disrupt the flow, invalidate the experience. I have a similar notion that the existence of multiple souls at the same time would require there to be some connection between them, sort of an implication of there being a single original soul off of which new souls emerge like branches off a tree, so there is a continuous stream of consciousness from the beginning of creation to the end, but these streams can still have gaps in them, the stream forks, and it only flows one way.

Your thoughts on collective consciousness pretty much meets mine. I believe that something like an ant - a thing that clearly goes about its world interacting with it intelligently - experiences some sort of internal life, yet the ants add up to form a single unit which demonstrates the properties of life (reproducing, structure, self-regulation, etc.) to the point where we call it a superorganism, acknowledge that it is for all purposes an organism unto itself, just one capable of dividing itself up physically. I think that human society demonstrates all of the properties of life and so is the direct equivalent of a clonal organism and (may) have its own crude sort of sentience. Similarly, given that I believe both individual ants and the anthill could have sentience, I don't see why individual cells of the body couldn't have their own internal life too. They resemble organisms inside and I assume (don't actually know anything about the evolution here) that multicellular organisms started out as unicellular superorganisms that just became incredibly complex.
 
Your definition of the soul doesn’t encompass its most common spiritual aspect, that being a “spark of life” which can exist independent of the physical body, and potentially transfer to a new body. Personally I don’t find your definition all that useful because we already have a word for that, sentience; and at a higher degree, sapience; which doesn’t come with the additional spiritual connotations of the soul. Asking “do animals have souls?” has a VERY different connotation from asking “are animals sentient?”; one is a spiritual question that has no right answer, the other is a scientific question whose answer is very much “no fucking shit” with the caveat that sentience is a sliding scale with no clear beginning point.

Are bacteria sentient? Almost certainly not. What about simple multicellular life like planarians? Small insects like ants? Large insects like rhinoceros beetles? Simple vertebrates like small lizards? Higher vertebrates like dogs, pigs, and dolphins? We can come up with subjective judgments in each of these cases but there isn’t really a clear line.

Personally, I believe that the “collective consciousness” is the thing that most resembles the classical spiritual definition of a “soul” - a form of higher-order emergent intelligence that arises from the interactions of lesser organisms, which is not bound to any one physical body in the same way that our own sapience is not bound to any individual cell in our brain. The classic example is the slime mold or the ant-hill or the bee hive: a super-organism comprised of many small component organisms that exhibits a kind of collective intelligence far beyond the capabilities of its individual components. I think that any kind of group or society will develop this collective consciousness once it reaches a sufficient scale or complexity, in an analogous manner to how individual organisms will gain sentience and then sapience as their complexity (or, rather, the complexity of their brains) grows.

This is just recycled atheism. Again "consciousness" is not the soul. That's the cop-out I always hear from pseudo-intellectuals that don't want to feel embarrassed by being associated by religious people they think are below them but also don't want to come off as emotionless serial killers. I feel bad for anyone who has no personal attachments to the point that the idea of soul is beyond them. People are not machines. lol

As for lesser creatures, they have spiritual energy, but not on the same level. A dog can have a strong spirit that can manifest after death and communicate to its previous owners. I've even witnessed activity from pet rodents, but it didn't last as long and evnetually faded. Insects, imo, have much lesser spiritual energy than mamals, but still something imo. There's a reson why insects can be controlled by stronger spiritual manifestations like hauntings, they are weak but still have spiritual energy. You may be onto something with how advanced the brain is being a related factor though. The brain is involved, but certainly the soul can still operate when someone is brain dead.
 
Interesting question...but I need to ask why would there need to be animals in heaven?

Revelation 21:4

Revelation 5:13


I would suggest that those in heaven for a greater purpose. Gone would be the pull for worldly desires. Rather, heaven would be a place where all sorrow is removed so God can be praised unceasingly.

In such an environment, why would our better selves even need animals?
As objects of God's creation worthy of praise.
 
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